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why would anyone care if it does sever side encoding for porn? Do you think they are keeping track of your fetishes lol.
 
Hey Apple - ya think your user base might be interested in Flash??

Lol.

Yeah, you know what's best for us users though - so we should be elated that you are resisting support for it tooth and nail.

OR, tell the web designers that iPhone users are interested in their videos and they need to stop using flash.:rolleyes:
 
just goes to show people still want to be able to see flash on their iphones reguardless of how bloated

I assume this means everyone want to be able to use iFart on their iPhones too?

Just because an app climbed up the charts doesn't mean they absolutely need the app. This is not how charting in the App Store works or means. I am pretty sure millions of iPhone users will be just fine without Angry Birds.
 
Hey Apple - ya think your user base might be interested in Flash??

Lol.

Yeah, you know what's best for us users though - so we should be elated that you are resisting support for it tooth and nail.
Well, in perspective it doesn't really mean much -- Apple has sold 33 million iPhones, so that's 1% which were interested in SkyFire / Flash.
 
Nonsense. It means nothing of the sort. Check back in 6 months, 3 months or even 1 month and see a) how many ppl are still using it, and b) how many ppl are buying it once the first blush of excitement is over.

Sorry, your answer is nonsense. 300,000 paid downloads means plenty. People paid for the darn thing. People think they want it now. If they want it in the future remains to be seen, but you and I can't determine that.
 
Sorry, your answer is nonsense. 300,000 paid downloads means plenty. People paid for the darn thing. People think they want it now. If they want it in the future remains to be seen, but you and I can't determine that.

It does mean plenty - I agree. There are a lot of developers who charge the same or less for their apps which are very popular or provide great functionality that would kill for skyfire's #s. Not to mention - they pulled the app. Who knows what they could have sold if they ignored their server drain.

People are talking how many iPhones could have sold if there wasn't a production shortage and saying the #s could be so much higher. This is no different.

It also speaks volumes about how many people tolerate/accept that there's no flash on the iPhone but who DO want it. Which I have always used in this sort of discussion. Some people like to insinuate since the iPhone and iPad sells so many units that clearly NOT having flash isn't an issue. While I agree to a point - the notion I've raised is that there's a difference between tolerating/accepting vs liking/wanting.
 
What's with all the developers that won't do Universal Apps?

If you're supporting both platforms anyway, it's actually far less code, and less testing to just do a Universal App. (I know, I've done two of them so far.)


Apple dropped support for PPC in Snow Leopard and so many programs now even require Snow Leopard to run. Such programs will not work in Leopard, let alone as Universal Apps. If you use any Snow Leopard specific features, I figure you cannot get a Universal binary regardless. It's why I think Apple should have waited until Lion to ditch PPC. Developers for OSX tend to prematurely drop support for previous versions of the operating system simply because they cannot be bothered to support it and/or have no way to test it. I think a lot of apps didn't bother with PPC purely due to the testing issue. Some apps need a bit of tweaking to work in PPC some times even with Apple's two for the price of one system.

This is why I said when Apple dropped PPC for a "tweak" upgrade (Snow Leopard) that PPC was pretty much finished despite all the people saying that "Leopard still works". Yes, it still works but most new software does not. You see the same thin on the App store for iOS a lot. Some app updates will suddenly require iOS 4.x and too bad if iTunes isn't flagged properly and it updates it locally since older iPod Touches and iPhones won't be able to use the app at that point.

You don't just lose out on any new operating system features when your hardware isn't supported any longer. You often lose out on new software as well. You rarely see this with Windows. The vast majority of software that works with Vista and Windows7 still works with XP. Even most games still support DirectX 9 as well because so many users still use XP (which is still faster for gaming for the most part). And XP isn't even officially supported by Microsoft anymore. I guess that's the problem with the high turnover rates with OSX. Older versions get dumped into oblivion instead of slowly fading away. Look how fast OS9 disappeared off the face of the earth whereas you could still get quite a bit of software for Win98 a decade later even.

As for Skyfire and flash, it just proves that despite fanboy ravings on here, a lot of people still want to be able to view Flash web sites. Having a crippled Internet experience just plain sucks, especially if it's only to push one man's agenda for a Flash free Internet. Well, it's not going anywhere fast, regardless and Apple should not be allowed to market things like "the whole Internet" for iOS devices when it's not true.
 
just goes to show people still want to be able to see flash on their iphones reguardless of how bloated

Yeah, if people had an option to download a real Flash player for their iPhones, it would be one of the most highly downloaded apps in the App Store.
 
I was one of the people who paid $3. So far I haven't found a single flash video that will play on it, and I feel really ripped off.
 
I think that the article meant to say, "SkyFire's", not "SkyFires" in the middle paragraph :p

Just sayin' :)
 
Hey Apple - ya think your user base might be interested in Flash??

The response means that users are interested in viewing videos -- even if those views are encapsulated in a legacy wrapper of Flash. Once content providers have updated their videos, there will be no need for this bridge.

In case you missed the news, there was yet another zero day bug in Adobe Flash. Read that transcript: the bug affects Windows, Mac, Solaris, Linux, and Android (!) devices. Adobe still thinks that quarterly updates of their software are good enough, and the next one isn't scheduled until February of 2011. As Steve Gibson notes in the podcast:

"[Adobe:] how is that quarterly update cycle going for you?"

Apple was not willing to bind the safety and performance of their browser to Adobe Flash. Good choice!

Yeah, you know what's best for us users though - so we should be elated that you are resisting support for it tooth and nail.

Apple approved the app. They are allowing individuals in the marketplace to decide what's best for them.

Hopefully, the websites that provide their videos through a legacy Flash wrapper will soon be providing their users with a choice.

I am elated that iOS Safari has no Flash support. I do not want the CPU suck, the identity suck, the unpredictable behavior, and the exposure to Adobe bugs. If you want those things, feel free to get an Android device.
 
Hopefully, the websites that provide their videos through a legacy Flash wrapper will soon be providing their users with a choice.

I am elated that iOS Safari has no Flash support. I do not want the CPU suck, the identity suck, the unpredictable behavior, and the exposure to Adobe bugs. If you want those things, feel free to get an Android device.

It would be better if Apple provided its users with a choice of whether they want to enable a flash plugin or not in their devices instead of screwing us all over by making so many web sites unusable (although I'm sure the author of Skyfire is thrilled about that choice since it's making him rich beyond his wildest dreams all because Apple is run by an egomaniac).
 
Hopefully, the websites that provide their videos through a legacy Flash wrapper will soon be providing their users with a choice.

I am elated that iOS Safari has no Flash support. I do not want the CPU suck, the identity suck, the unpredictable behavior, and the exposure to Adobe bugs. If you want those things, feel free to get an Android device.

It would be better if Apple provided its users with a choice of whether they want to enable a flash plugin or not in their devices instead of screwing us all over by making so many web sites unusable

See above, MagnusVonMagnum. I listed four very good reasons why enabling Flash in iOS Safari would be a terrible choice. If you wish your argument to be convincing, you need to address those four specific reasons.

There are over 120M iOS devices in the world. Those owners have extremely attractive demographics for websites. If website owners haven't begun converting their content off of a proprietary wrapper, they just don't care.

Even Adobe has acknowledged that a Flash-only choice is a bankrupt strategy. After websites start offering their content with an open standard, you've gotta ask: what exactly is the value in continuing to prop up Flash?

(although I'm sure the author of Skyfire is thrilled about that choice since it's making him rich beyond his wildest dreams all because Apple is run by an egomaniac).

I don't know what "him" you are talking about. DVC labs, provider of the Skyfire app we're discussing, was founded in 2006. They have apps on a variety of handheld platforms; they have now expanded to the iOS platform.

The Skyfire app is distinct from most apps: for the App purchase price, they must also provide the video translation service. They must provide servers and purchase substantial incoming and outgoing bandwidth for the videos. Skyfire does have a lot of experience providing this kind of service on other handheld platforms; they should be able to pull it off and have a reasonable return for their investment.

Skyfire has figured out a way for users to run Flash-wapped videos without ever having to expose their handhelds to the risks of running Flash. That's a neat trick; they should be rewarded for those efforts.

Any Flash developer has the ability to cross-compile and release their Flash code as an iOS app. If there are Flash apps that do something that no third-party iOS app does, it should be trivial for those Flash developers to add their app to the App Store. They can either release those apps for free or make money on them.

What exact Flash code are you running that there is not already an iOS App that can do exactly the same job? Please be specific. If there are unique Flash apps, have you asked the developer why they don't release it as a standalone iOS app?

There. That's two more reasons why Apple's choice was a good one. If you wish to continue this discussion, please make sure to address all six. Thanks!
 
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See above, MagnusVonMagnum. I listed four very good reasons why enabling Flash in iOS Safari would be a terrible choice. If you wish your argument to be convincing, you need to address those four specific reasons.

I don't need to do squat guy. WTF do I care about your reasons for wanting to take away my choice to use Flash? I don't. It's not about "propping up" flash, it's about being able to access TODAY'S Internet, not hoping some day that we won't need Flash. Some of us don't hate Flash like you do. We just want to use the Internet unfettered by Steve Jobs playing the part of a Communist Dictator. The only reasons I see from you are excuses to praise Steve. If we had a choice, you could simply disable Flash and have what you already have yet the rest of us could then access the web without having to pay for 3rd party oddball solutions to watch a simple flash video (which does NOTHING to make other Flash functions work, BTW, leaving many sites useless even so. Whether those sites should depend on Flash is irrelevant to some degree since if you want to view and cannot simply due to Steve being a control freak and stubborn man, tough squat).


There are over 120M iOS devices in the world. Those owners have extremely attractive demographics for websites. If website owners haven't begun converting their content off of a proprietary wrapper, they just don't care.

No, they don't care. It's a drop in the ocean compared to the world at large nor should they have to be held hostage by Steve Jobs whose sole goal in life is to get you to pay him for every little thing you do in this world. Want a new battery? Sorry, but we've removed all our battery compartments, but we'll gladly replace your battery for you if you pay us $100+ and mail it to us and do without your device for several days just so we can get more money out of you rather than let you simply buy a battery and remove a simple cover and change it yourself. And THAT is precisely why I can't stand Steve Jobs' attitude towards Apple's customers. He wants to push his warped agendas and ring every last cent out of you no matter how inconvenient it might be to you. He wants to force the destruction of flash by denying his customers access to a large percentage of the world's web sites all the time while lying about iOS devices being able to access the 'real' or 'full' Internet. Sorry, but if you don't have Flash, you don't have the full Internet. I just want innovative products. That is what Steve is good at. That doesn't mean I want his arrogant ego side pushing those products with restrictions that have nothing to do with the technology and only to do with Steve's need to be a control freak.
 
I don't need to do squat guy.

If you don't address those very good reasons, your argument won't be very convincing. We do not want the CPU suck, the identity leaking, the UI inconsistencies, and the very real risk of "zero day" Adobe bugs.

WTF do I care about your reasons for wanting to take away my choice to use Flash? I don't.

In other words, you are not competent to carry on a rational discussion. You're just here to vent.

It's not about "propping up" flash, it's about being able to access TODAY'S Internet, not hoping some day that we won't need Flash.

Users of those 120M+ devices don't have to hope. They are already free of Flash!

We just want to use the Internet unfettered by Steve Jobs playing the part of a Communist Dictator.

The analogy makes no sense. Nobody is forcing you to use any Apple product.

If you really want the "full web experience" of zero-day Adobe bugs, get an Android phone. Note: Android phones were vulnerable to the last zero-day Adobe bug.

The only reasons I see from you are excuses to praise Steve.

The fact that I can't catch zero-day Adobe attacks on my iPhone is a great reason to praise Apple's decision.

which does NOTHING to make other Flash functions work, BTW, leaving many sites useless even so

Do tell: what exact sites are you talking about? What exact legacy flash applications are running on those sites to which you can find no substitute?

It's a drop in the ocean compared to the world at large nor should they have to be held hostage by Steve Jobs whose sole goal in life is to get you to pay him for every little thing you do in this world.

Nobody is holding a gun to your head. Nobody is holding you hostage.

If you don't like the choices that Apple made, then ditch your iOS device and get an Android. Simple.

He wants to push his warped agendas and ring every last cent out of you no matter how inconvenient it might be to you.

This is the first little lie in your rant. The iOS users don't find it inconvenient. If Flash were so damn important to them, they would have bought some device that could run Flash.

The people who bought those 120M+ devices disagree with you.

He wants to force the destruction of flash by denying his customers access to a large percentage of the world's web sites all the time while lying about iOS devices being able to access the 'real' or 'full' Internet.

This is the second little lie. Apple did provide a choice: they approved the SkyFire App. They didn't have to do that.

Apple has also announced they will approve Flash Apps using Adobe's cross-compiler for iOS. If there actually are crucial Flash apps -- you haven't named a single specific one so far -- the owners of those apps should be able to easily cross-compile their apps for the iOS App Store.

if you don't have Flash, you don't have the full Internet.

And that is the third little lie. Flash is a proprietary and legacy platform. It's on the way down now.

Even Adobe has acknowledged that a Flash-only choice is a bankrupt strategy. After websites start offering their content with an open standard, you've gotta ask: what exactly is the value in continuing to prop up Flash?

I just want innovative products. That is what Steve is good at. That doesn't mean I want his arrogant ego side pushing those products with restrictions that have nothing to do with the technology and only to do with Steve's need to be a control freak.

And this is number four. If those words were true, you would be able to explain why my four huge concerns for running Flash in iOS Safari are not valid. But you can't do that!

If the flash experience is so great, please tell us what exact Flash sites are you talking about? What exact legacy flash applications are running on those sites to which you can find no substitute on your iOS device?
 
If you don't address those very good reasons, your argument won't be very convincing. We do not want the CPU suck, the identity leaking, the UI inconsistencies, and the very real risk of "zero day" Adobe bugs.

Whom am I trying to convince? Illogical and irrational people who worship Steve Jobs and hate what he hates? Such people will not care or listen to any form of reason. That's why the word fanatic is in fanboy. No, I talk about an option to turn Flash on or off at will and you find it offensive to even offer an option. That is irrational at best.

Everything you fear would be avoided if someone just turned Flash OFF (or it could default to off and have to be turned on). I've said since the first post the word OPTION. You don't seem to comprehend that word or understand why those of us that would want the choice of having Flash are not asking you to give up anything in the process. You could always turn it off if it were present. We cannot turn it on if it's not present.

In other words, you are not competent to carry on a rational discussion. You're just here to vent.

No, I just don't see any point in trying to carry on a logical, rational discussion with someone whose "argument" is based purely on emotion. If it weren't, you wouldn't object to an option for those of us that don't agree with Steve Jobs point of view because an option satisfies all your arguments against having Flash because you can always just leave it OFF. It cannot do harm if it's off no matter how paranoid you may become about having it on your device.

Many millions of people have Flash installed on their Macs (let alone those using Windows and Linux) and they could remove it. They know that if they do, some web sites will cease to function properly and thus they leave it on. The security concerns you mentioned will be addressed as all security bugs are in both OSX and Windows.

Users of those 120M+ devices don't have to hope. They are already free of Flash!

Free of Flash? You say that in a tone that sounds like they're free of slavery or something. No, what they're free of is the ability to access millions of web sites that require Flash to view them or much of their content and I do not see that as a good thing. But my point of view doesn't require you to see it. I said from the first post I wanted an option to use Flash. You could still choose to turn it off if it were there. I cannot turn on what is not present nor should I have to buy some absurd 3rd party converter that requires their web site to be running to use it.

The analogy makes no sense. Nobody is forcing you to use any Apple product.

And so that makes it OK for him to behave as he does? A lot of us like Apple products, but we would like them a lot better if Steve would just stick to making the products unfettered instead of trying to force his opinions and world view on people in the process. He doesn't like Flash so he decides for everyone they should not use Flash. What if Steve decided iOS shall no longer support MP3 files, only AAC? I suppose you would accept that as OK too? Update iOS and your MP3s no longer function. Yes, that would be just wonderful if they did that. After all, AAC is superior to MP3, so why should Apple support a legacy inferior heavily pirated format? By your logic, they should not.

If you really want the "full web experience" of zero-day Adobe bugs, get an Android phone. Note: Android phones were vulnerable to the last zero-day Adobe bug.

I don't want a phone period guy. I only want and use an iPod Touch. Is there an Android iPod Touch? Android didn't exist when Apple made the claims of accessing the full Internet either and it doesn't make that any less a lie.

The fact that I can't catch zero-day Adobe attacks on my iPhone is a great reason to praise Apple's decision.

You act as if Apple has no vulnerabilities to attack. That is extremely naive to the point of emotionalism once again. In fact it's just the opposite. Apple's security is rated as bad compared to Windows and only the fact that there are so few Mac users compared to Windows has saved it thus far. As the popularity of iOS devices has exploded, it's inevitable that it will start attracting malware. It's only a matter of time. Will you wish you never bought an iPhone on that day or will you recognize that companies simply have to find and patch vulnerabilities. Apple has patched numerous security flaws in OSX over the years. Should we plug our ears and say there is no such thing?

Do tell: what exact sites are you talking about? What exact legacy flash applications are running on those sites to which you can find no substitute?

A quick search (you do know how to do that don't you?) reveals offhand a few example sites that don't use HTML5 video (which could and may in the future, but that doesn't help someone today):

Gametrailers
GiantBomb
Vimeo
Playstation Blog
Stiq of Joy
Engadget

Try some of these effects on this site this with HTML5:

http://superior-web-solutions.com/

Maybe read this article on Flash. Most HTML5 is just a video player. Flash isn't just a video player and it didn't even start as one.

http://www.andrewgreig.com/2010/06/html5-is-not-a-flash-replacement-and-shouldnt-be-seen-that-way/

Perhaps you want an open standard? So when does Apple stop requiring Quicktime on their web sites? :rolleyes:

Nobody is holding a gun to your head. Nobody is holding you hostage.

If you don't like the choices that Apple made, then ditch your iOS device and get an Android. Simple.

No, they're just boring me to death with emotional arguments why everyone should either worship Steve Jobs or leave the platform and get an Android instead similar to the "love OSX or leave it" arguments the fanboys regularly produce.

This is the first little lie in your rant. The iOS users don't find it inconvenient. If Flash were so damn important to them, they would have bought some device that could run Flash.

The fact that you think my statement is a "lie" based on a subjective opinion tells me you cannot even tell fact from fiction let alone lies from opinions. Trying to see someone else's point of view is completely foreign to you. You view the world through tinted lenses. What you say is akin to if you don't like something about OSX, go buy a Windows machine, as if there aren't any compromises along the way on that platform either (not to mention having to replace possibly thousands and thousands of dollars worth of software for a given platform to do so). Not liking something about a given platform and wanting to change it doesn't mean another platform is more viable in ALL areas or that a person may wish to spend a lot of money to make that change just because of that one issue. Perhaps you'd like to send me a free Android phone to replace my aging 1st Gen iPod Touch that I bought before Android even existed? I'd happily consider such an offer. Of course I'll need replacement apps as well.

The people who bought those 120M+ devices disagree with you.

You seem to forge that I and others that actually want Flash are part of those people dude. Get over yourself. Just because you don't like Flash doesn't mean the rest of us have hatred for it. Some of us simply don't like our iPhones, iPads and iPod Touches crippled for no reason. Besides, how you try to turn my initial argument that I'd prefer to see an option to use Flash for those of us that want it rather than no option into this flipping crusade against all things Apple and Flash alike is beyond me. You are making mountains out of mole hills and lies out of opinions. For what? I can't make you see things the way I see them. I never wanted to try. That's why I said OPTION. But you would deny everyone who wants that option to have it just like Steve Jobs. Steve does it because he's a control freak (he was once ousted from Apple for this very reason). I imagine you do it because you love Apple. Sadly, I actually prefer Steve's reason.

This is the second little lie. Apple did provide a choice: they approved the SkyFire App. They didn't have to do that.

Didn't they? It doesn't violate their rules for an app so how could they not approve it without being outright liars? Oh wait. They have done that before so I can see your point. ;)

Apple has also announced they will approve Flash Apps using Adobe's cross-compiler for iOS. If there actually are crucial Flash apps -- you haven't named a single specific one so far -- the owners of those apps should be able to easily cross-compile their apps for the iOS App Store.

Apple formerly announced they would NOT support it. Why did they change their minds? Could it have something to do with the Justice Department starting an investigation into anti-trust behaviors by Apple policies? Noooo....it couldn't be that. Apple is allowed to single out companies it doesn't like and compete with to just willy-nilly throw specifically into their license agreements.

And that is the third little lie. Flash is a proprietary and legacy platform. It's on the way down now.

I say if you don't have Flash you don't have the full Internet and you call that a "lie" based on the above quote? What freaking UNIVERSE do you live in??????? ROTFLMAO. You cannot tell a statement of fact from an idea in your head that somehow says that the "full internet" doesn't include sites that use "propriety" formats. Come on man. That position not only ignore reality it even invalidiates Apple's own web site as being part of the "full Internet" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You need to try harder. Calling someone a liar when they are obviously stating facts and/or opinions just makes you look immature.

because accusing someone of lying when it's obvious
Even Adobe has acknowledged that a Flash-only choice is a bankrupt strategy. After websites start offering their content with an open standard, you've gotta ask: what exactly is the value in continuing to prop up Flash?

First of all, you are the one that is calling it a "bankrupt strategy". I see nothing in that thread by Adobe that even addresses the matter. Adobe is simply trying to sell products and if they can easily sell more products to Apple users by providing an easy way to convert their hard work Flash sites into HTML5, they are going to do so and laugh all the way to the bank. That in NO WAY invalidates the fact that there are still plenty of Flash only sites out there and plenty of flash uses (e.g. Flash games) that HTML5 is no simple substitute for regardless. Until the Internet is Flash free, there is going to be a need and a will by people to have the option to view Flash.

The mere fact that this Skyfire app has raked in over $1 MILLION in sales already shows just how big that will is. Yet you reject the desire to be able to use Flash web sites as meaningless and unnecessary while the thread title alone proves you wrong.

And this is number four. If those words were true, you would be able to explain why my four huge concerns for running Flash in iOS Safari are not valid. But you can't do that!

How do you keep connecting things like 'able' to 'lie' or even will to do so to 'lie'? You may risk serious defamation of character lawsuits in the future if you cannot learn to tell the difference because no lie is present in my posts period and I'm getting pretty sick of you labeling me a liar when you cannot even tell a fact from an opinion.

In any case, your "huge" concerns do no not concern me much at all. They will be fixed as all security breaches will be fixed. I have already addressed this above. You cannot use a computer in the modern world on the Internet without taking some risk of malware. OSX is not immune to possible attacks. Furthermore, I said since the first post I want an option to use Flash. You would avoid all your concerns by simply leaving it turned OFF. No zero day bug can affect Flash if it's not running.
 
You both need to calm down. One of you wants flash, the other could do without. We get it.

And by the way Apple is under no obligation to offer you Flash or anything else for that matter, you knew before your purchase that Safari would never support Flash, consider yourself fortunate that Skyfire exists.

On topic, I wonder if the ipad app will be any different? Perhaps they can embed the video in the website so it takes the place of the original flash content?
 
Whom am I trying to convince?

It doesn't matter. You're not convincing anybody. Calling a CEO a communist because their product doesn't do what you think it ought to do is pretty goofy.

Illogical and irrational people who worship Steve Jobs and hate what he hates? Such people will not care or listen to any form of reason.

You're not listening. I gave four very good -- and rational -- reasons why Flash is a bad idea for iOS. You haven't countered that reasoning. You give us things like a "communist" rant that has no business in this kind of discussion. You are the one acting in an irrational fashion here.

No, I talk about an option to turn Flash on or off at will and you find it offensive to even offer an option.

If Apple did that, then they would be staking the security of iOS Safari to Adobe. And Adobe has proven to be thoroughly incompetent in securing their products. Security experts believe that Adobe is going to surpass Microsoft as the #1 target for security attacks.: "The expectation is, among the security community, that Adobe this year, in 2010, is going to surpass Microsoft as the number one target for attacks due to the continuing problems."

Adobe still thinks that quarterly updates is good enough for their software. Clueless. As security expert Steve Gibson notes: So how is that quarterly update going for you?

Everything you fear would be avoided if someone just turned Flash OFF

Please explain how you can possibly ensure that not a single iOS user will not lose anything the next time there's a zero day Adobe bug. You can't.

No, I just don't see any point in trying to carry on a logical, rational discussion with someone whose "argument" is based purely on emotion.

See above. My arguments are rational. OTOH, you are the one who labeled Steve Jobs as a "communist dictator" in message #45 of this discussion.

That argument is purely based on emotion, it is purely nonsensical, and it is entirely wrong.

You owe the community an apology for your "communist" rant. It has no business in any rational discussion here.

Many millions of people have Flash installed on their Macs (let alone those using Windows and Linux) and they could remove it. They know that if they do, some web sites will cease to function properly and thus they leave it on.

This is not a problem for the owners of the 120M+ iOS devices. Nobody forced them to buy an Apple iOS product. Many of them are quite happy that they never have to deal with Flash at all. If there's something they need to do, they can look in the App Store for an app to do that.

Note: despite asking you multiple times, you have yet to tell us of a SINGLE FLASH APP that doesn't have a reasonable alternative in the app store.

Millions of users on Macs AND Windows AND Linux also don't give a rat's ass about a single Flash app. They have installed click-to-flash blockers on their computers to muzzle flash.

Apple doesn't even ship Flash on their newest computers. It's a safe bet that Apple won't ship Flash at all with 10.7 version of the OS.

Even Adobe has seen the handwriting on the wall. They are now offering code that generates HTML5 instead -- for those hundreds of millions of computers that don't offer Flash. Websites will probably cut over to that completely, because they can never tell who has muzzled their Flash apps with click-to-flash on laptops and desktop computers.

Other than a small number of legacy programmers, nobody cares about flash any more.

Those flash hangers-on have been resorting to bizarre emotional arguments -- they claim that Steve Jobs is a communist dictator. That is a truly bankrupt argument -- the last gasp from those defending a dying platform.

The security concerns you mentioned will be addressed as all security bugs are in both OSX and Windows.

Bingo. And many of the Adobe problems also plague Adobe Reader. These are excellent reasons for laptop and desktop users to avoid both Flash and Adobe Reader.

Fortunately, Mac users have a superior alternative to Adobe Reader: Apple Preview will display PDF files faster, with less memory, and with none of the zero day security risks of Adobe reader.

No, what they're free of is the ability to access millions of web sites that require Flash to view them or much of their content and I do not see that as a good thing.

Yes, freedom! I have absolutely no Adobe Flash code that I need to run on my laptop. Gruber has documented how to go Flash-free on Mac OS X. On some sites, you pick up the adaptations those websites have made to deal with the 120M+ iOS devices.

I have yet to find any other Flash sites I care about. This is the dirty little secret you are ignoring: virtually all commercial sites have already adapted for iOS.

Commercial site owners are not dummies. Never mind the iOS devices: they see that their Flash ads are failing to even launch on an ever-increasing number of Mac, Windows, and Linux machines. They know about Adobe's HTML5 announcement. Those individuals have Flash muzzled with click-to-flash on their browsers. These people will convert their websites to accommodate all of the non-flash users, or they will cease to be viable.

I said from the first post I wanted an option to use Flash.

You have that option today: buy an Android phone.

Do you understand: no vendor is a "communist dictator" if they refuse to offer an option of running Flash code? Do you understand how irrational it was for you to use that moniker?

And so that makes it OK for him to behave as he does?

What possible justification do you have for calling him a communist dictator?

Nobody is forcing you to buy any iOS device or even touch one.

A lot of us like Apple products, but we would like them a lot better if Steve would just stick to making the products unfettered instead of trying to force his opinions and world view on people in the process.

Please explain how you can possibly ensure that not a single iOS user will not lose anything the next time there's a zero day Adobe bug. You can't.

What if Steve decided iOS shall no longer support MP3 files, only AAC? I suppose you would accept that as OK too?

It's unlikely that we will have a zero-day bug with MP3 files. Further, if there is a problem with MP3 files, then Apple can deal with it. They wouldn't have to count on some vendor that still thinks that quarterly updates are good enough.

This is one of the four problems I originally listed with Flash on iOS. If you go back and read them, you'll see that MP3 has none of those four problems.

In short, the comparison between MP3 and Adobe Flash is a FAIL.

You act as if Apple has no vulnerabilities to attack.

Nope. I never said that. I have said that Adobe is either the #2 or #1 source of remote attacks on software, and that is true.

Why in god's name would you entrust the secure operation of Safari on your flagship device to a company that has such a poor track record with security?

That is extremely naive to the point of emotionalism once again.

It's a straw man. I never said it.

Apple is accountable for securing the software they provide on their products. Further, the iOS is designed with file system firewalls to compartmentalize any compromised software.

In fact it's just the opposite. Apple's security is rated as bad compared to Windows and only the fact that there are so few Mac users compared to Windows has saved it thus far.

Based on what? Please provide a reference.

Do you listen to Steve Gibson's "Security Now!" podcast? I do. Gibson is quite impressed with the security measures installed on iOS.

A quick search (you do know how to do that don't you?) reveals offhand a few example sites that don't use HTML5 video (which could and may in the future, but that doesn't help someone today):

Gametrailers
GiantBomb
Vimeo
Playstation Blog
Stiq of Joy
Engadget

Videos launch fine from gametrailers.com. And giantbomb.com. And vimeo.com. I don't see any videos on engadget.com. IDK the links for the other two sites. I did all that from my iPod Touch.

Apparently, you don't realize that servers can serve up different things based on the browser identification.

Try some of these effects on this site this with HTML5:

http://superior-web-solutions.com/

Maybe read this article on Flash. Most HTML5 is just a video player. Flash isn't just a video player and it didn't even start as one.

They serve up HTML just fine for iOS. I see nothing about the Flash that makes that approach "superior".

No, they're just boring me to death with emotional arguments why everyone should either worship Steve Jobs or leave the platform and get an Android instead similar to the "love OSX or leave it" arguments the fanboys regularly produce.

I don't see any of them addressing the very clear four concerns I have with Flash on iOS that I listed here. I don't see you addressing them either.

The fact that you think my statement is a "lie" based on a subjective opinion tells me you cannot even tell fact from fiction let alone lies from opinions.

If that were the case, you would actually talk about the content of what I said in the debate. You do not.

Instead, you launch off into a rant about claiming that Steve Jobs is a communist dictator. That's the tell-tale of someone who doesn't quite have his emotions in check.


Apple formerly announced they would NOT support it. Why did they change their minds? Could it have something to do with the Justice Department starting an investigation into anti-trust behaviors by Apple policies? Noooo....it couldn't be that. Apple is allowed to single out companies it doesn't like and compete with to just willy-nilly throw specifically into their license agreements.

The announcement was back in September here. The Adobe announcement is here.

No matter what the reason, there is now no excuse for Flash apps not being available on the iOS platform.

I say if you don't have Flash you don't have the full Internet and you call that a "lie" based on the above quote?

Flash is a legacy platform. It certainly is unessential for browsing the Internet. If it were essential, then Apple never would have sold 120M+ iOS devices.

As noted earlier, Apple isn't even shipping Flash with its newest laptops, and I'm confident that Flash will not be packaged with the next version of MacOS.

All web browsers now have click-to-flash blockers. Flash's viability as a platform for delivering advertising has evaporated. I now love flash advertising, because I never see the advertisements there.

Other legacy platforms have been pushed to the wayside and are no more. Flash will be the next to go.

Even Adobe sees the handwriting on the wall. After websites start offering their content with an open standard, you've gotta ask: what exactly is the value in continuing to prop up Flash?

First of all, you are the one that is calling it a "bankrupt strategy". I see nothing in that thread by Adobe that even addresses the matter.

Adobe is acknowledging that there are some platforms where their customers will never be able to deploy Flash.

Adobe's smart customers will ask: if HTML5 works on all platforms, then WTF is the benefit of still generating Flash?

That in NO WAY invalidates the fact that there are still plenty of Flash only sites out there and plenty of flash uses (e.g. Flash games) that HTML5 is no simple substitute for regardless.

If Flash developers want their apps on iOS, then they should use Adobe's new packager (see link above).

The mere fact that this Skyfire app has raked in over $1 MILLION in sales already shows just how big that will is.

This was already covered in the discussion in message #42.

It means there are still some websites that haven't converted from the legacy platform. Once they do, there will be no need for this bridging service. Skyfire is a bridge from legacy Flash videos to the modern open internet.

In any case, your "huge" concerns do no not concern me much at all.

You don't appear to be competent to discuss those reasons.

They will be fixed as all security breaches will be fixed. I have already addressed this above.

You failed to address them competently.

Why should Apple abdicate the security of their iOS browser to a third-party company that has demonstrated itself to be especially clueless in dealing with security problems? In an age of zero-day threats, Adobe still thinks that quarterly updates are good enough. This episode of Security Now! has security expert Steve Gibson mocking Adobe's silly policies.

You cannot use a computer in the modern world on the Internet without taking some risk of malware.

But you can minimize your risks of malware by eliminating software from the #2 (or maybe the #1) malware target on the planet. As Steve Gibson noted earlier this year: "The expectation is, among the security community, that Adobe this year, in 2010, is going to surpass Microsoft as the number one target for attacks due to the continuing problems."

OSX is not immune to possible attacks.

They have a far better record than Adobe. Apple would be stupid to bundle Adobe's buggy software with their iOS browser.

Furthermore, I said since the first post I want an option to use Flash. You would avoid all your concerns by simply leaving it turned OFF. No zero day bug can affect Flash if it's not running.

Please explain how you can possibly ensure that not a single iOS user will not lose anything the next time there's a zero day Adobe bug. You can't.

Once again, you failed to address my question:

If the flash experience is so great, please tell us what exact Flash sites are you talking about? What exact legacy flash applications are running on those sites to which you can find no substitute on your iOS device?

If you can't address that question, please don't even bothering responding.
 
You both need to calm down. One of you wants flash, the other could do without. We get it.

And by the way Apple is under no obligation to offer you Flash or anything else for that matter, you knew before your purchase that Safari would never support Flash, consider yourself fortunate that Skyfire exists.

Thanks for the calm message. I just get upset when someone calls the CEO of a company a communist simply because the product lacks some feature they think they want. Those nonsense claims have no business on these forums.

On topic, I wonder if the ipad app will be any different? Perhaps they can embed the video in the website so it takes the place of the original flash content?

Good question. They are a well-financed company with products on a variety of handheld devices. Maybe they're reading these comments to see what people are saying; maybe not. If you have suggestions, I'd go on their website and tell them what you'd like.

Your question made me think of one interesting business possibility: maybe Skyfire will begin to offer consulting services to website owners to ease the conversion from of their media inventory from legacy Flash to HTML5 video.
 
Wirelessly posted (Iphone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/532.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0.5 Mobile/8B117 Safari/6531.22.7)

How good is the flash player is it even worth it? I heard it doesn't covert a lot of flash websites.
 
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