Whom am I trying to convince?
It doesn't matter. You're not convincing anybody. Calling a CEO a communist because their product doesn't do what you think it ought to do is pretty goofy.
Illogical and irrational people who worship Steve Jobs and hate what he hates? Such people will not care or listen to any form of reason.
You're not listening. I gave four very good -- and rational -- reasons why Flash is a bad idea for iOS. You haven't countered that reasoning. You give us things like a "communist" rant that has
no business in this kind of discussion. You are the one acting in an irrational fashion here.
No, I talk about an option to turn Flash on or off at will and you find it offensive to even offer an option.
If Apple did that, then they would be staking the security of iOS Safari to Adobe. And Adobe has proven to be thoroughly incompetent in securing their products.
Security experts believe that Adobe is going to surpass Microsoft as the #1 target for security attacks.: "The expectation is, among the security community, that Adobe this year, in 2010, is going to surpass Microsoft as the number one target for attacks due to the continuing problems."
Adobe still thinks that quarterly updates is good enough for their software. Clueless. As security expert Steve Gibson notes:
So how is that quarterly update going for you?
Everything you fear would be avoided if someone just turned Flash OFF
Please explain how you can possibly ensure that not a single iOS user will not lose anything the next time there's
a zero day Adobe bug. You can't.
No, I just don't see any point in trying to carry on a logical, rational discussion with someone whose "argument" is based purely on emotion.
See above. My arguments are rational. OTOH, you are the one who labeled Steve Jobs as a "communist dictator" in message #45 of this discussion.
That argument is purely based on emotion, it is purely nonsensical, and it is entirely wrong.
You owe the community an apology for your "communist" rant. It has
no business in any rational discussion here.
Many millions of people have Flash installed on their Macs (let alone those using Windows and Linux) and they could remove it. They know that if they do, some web sites will cease to function properly and thus they leave it on.
This is not a problem for the owners of the 120M+ iOS devices. Nobody forced them to buy an Apple iOS product. Many of them are quite happy that they never have to deal with Flash at all. If there's something they need to do, they can look in the App Store for an app to do that.
Note: despite asking you multiple times, you have yet to tell us of a
SINGLE FLASH APP that doesn't have a reasonable alternative in the app store.
Millions of users on Macs AND Windows AND Linux also don't give a rat's ass about a single Flash app. They have installed click-to-flash blockers on their computers to muzzle flash.
Apple
doesn't even ship Flash on their newest computers. It's a safe bet that Apple won't ship Flash at all with 10.7 version of the OS.
Even Adobe
has seen the handwriting on the wall. They are now offering code that generates HTML5 instead -- for those hundreds of millions of computers that don't offer Flash. Websites will probably cut over to that completely, because they can never tell who has muzzled their Flash apps with click-to-flash on laptops and desktop computers.
Other than a small number of legacy programmers, nobody cares about flash any more.
Those flash hangers-on have been resorting to bizarre emotional arguments -- they claim that
Steve Jobs is a communist dictator. That is a truly bankrupt argument -- the last gasp from those defending a dying platform.
The security concerns you mentioned will be addressed as all security bugs are in both OSX and Windows.
Bingo. And many of the Adobe problems also plague Adobe Reader. These are excellent reasons for laptop and desktop users to avoid
both Flash and Adobe Reader.
Fortunately, Mac users have a superior alternative to Adobe Reader: Apple Preview will display PDF files faster, with less memory, and with none of the zero day security risks of Adobe reader.
No, what they're free of is the ability to access millions of web sites that require Flash to view them or much of their content and I do not see that as a good thing.
Yes, freedom! I have absolutely no Adobe Flash code that I need to run on my laptop. Gruber has documented
how to go Flash-free on Mac OS X. On some sites, you pick up the adaptations those websites have made to deal with the 120M+ iOS devices.
I have yet to find any other Flash sites I care about. This is the dirty little secret you are ignoring: virtually all commercial sites have
already adapted for iOS.
Commercial site owners are not dummies. Never mind the iOS devices: they see that their Flash ads are failing to even launch on an ever-increasing number of Mac, Windows, and Linux machines. They know about Adobe's HTML5 announcement. Those individuals have Flash muzzled with click-to-flash on
their browsers. These people will convert their websites to accommodate all of the non-flash users, or they will cease to be viable.
I said from the first post I wanted an option to use Flash.
You have that option today: buy an Android phone.
Do you understand: no vendor is a "communist dictator" if they refuse to offer an option of running Flash code? Do you understand how irrational it was for you to use that moniker?
And so that makes it OK for him to behave as he does?
What possible justification do you have for calling him a communist dictator?
Nobody is forcing you to buy any iOS device or even touch one.
A lot of us like Apple products, but we would like them a lot better if Steve would just stick to making the products unfettered instead of trying to force his opinions and world view on people in the process.
Please explain how you can possibly ensure that not a single iOS user will not lose anything the next time there's
a zero day Adobe bug. You can't.
What if Steve decided iOS shall no longer support MP3 files, only AAC? I suppose you would accept that as OK too?
It's unlikely that we will have a zero-day bug with MP3 files. Further, if there is a problem with MP3 files, then Apple can deal with it. They wouldn't have to count on some vendor that
still thinks that quarterly updates are good enough.
This is one of the four problems I originally listed with Flash on iOS. If you
go back and read them, you'll see that MP3 has none of those four problems.
In short, the comparison between MP3 and Adobe Flash is a FAIL.
You act as if Apple has no vulnerabilities to attack.
Nope. I never said that. I have said that
Adobe is either the #2 or #1 source of remote attacks on software, and that is true.
Why in god's name would you entrust the secure operation of Safari on your flagship device to a company that has such a poor track record with security?
That is extremely naive to the point of emotionalism once again.
It's a straw man. I never said it.
Apple is accountable for securing the software they provide on their products. Further, the iOS is designed with file system firewalls to compartmentalize any compromised software.
In fact it's just the opposite. Apple's security is rated as bad compared to Windows and only the fact that there are so few Mac users compared to Windows has saved it thus far.
Based on what? Please provide a reference.
Do you listen to Steve Gibson's "Security Now!" podcast? I do. Gibson is quite impressed with the security measures installed on iOS.
A quick search (you do know how to do that don't you?) reveals offhand a few example sites that don't use HTML5 video (which could and may in the future, but that doesn't help someone today):
Gametrailers
GiantBomb
Vimeo
Playstation Blog
Stiq of Joy
Engadget
Videos launch fine from gametrailers.com. And giantbomb.com. And vimeo.com. I don't see any videos on engadget.com. IDK the links for the other two sites. I did all that from my iPod Touch.
Apparently, you don't realize that servers can serve up different things based on the browser identification.
Try some of these effects on this site this with HTML5:
http://superior-web-solutions.com/
Maybe read this article on Flash. Most HTML5 is just a video player. Flash isn't just a video player and it didn't even start as one.
They serve up HTML just fine for iOS. I see nothing about the Flash that makes that approach "superior".
No, they're just boring me to death with emotional arguments why everyone should either worship Steve Jobs or leave the platform and get an Android instead similar to the "love OSX or leave it" arguments the fanboys regularly produce.
I don't see any of them addressing the very clear four concerns I have with Flash on iOS that I listed
here. I don't see you addressing them either.
The fact that you think my statement is a "lie" based on a subjective opinion tells me you cannot even tell fact from fiction let alone lies from opinions.
If that were the case, you would actually talk about the
content of what I said in the debate. You do not.
Instead, you launch off into a rant about claiming that Steve Jobs is a communist dictator. That's the tell-tale of someone who doesn't quite have his emotions in check.
Apple formerly announced they would NOT support it. Why did they change their minds? Could it have something to do with the Justice Department starting an investigation into anti-trust behaviors by Apple policies? Noooo....it couldn't be that. Apple is allowed to single out companies it doesn't like and compete with to just willy-nilly throw specifically into their license agreements.
The announcement was back in September
here. The Adobe announcement is
here.
No matter what the reason, there is now no excuse for Flash apps not being available on the iOS platform.
I say if you don't have Flash you don't have the full Internet and you call that a "lie" based on the above quote?
Flash is a legacy platform. It certainly is unessential for browsing the Internet. If it were essential, then Apple never would have sold 120M+ iOS devices.
As noted earlier, Apple isn't even shipping Flash with its newest laptops, and I'm confident that Flash will not be packaged with the next version of MacOS.
All web browsers now have click-to-flash blockers. Flash's viability as a platform for delivering advertising has evaporated. I now
love flash advertising, because I never see the advertisements there.
Other legacy platforms have been pushed to the wayside and are no more. Flash will be the next to go.
Even Adobe sees
the handwriting on the wall. After websites start offering their content with an open standard, you've gotta ask: what exactly is the value in continuing to prop up Flash?
First of all, you are the one that is calling it a "bankrupt strategy". I see nothing in that thread by Adobe that even addresses the matter.
Adobe is acknowledging that there are some platforms where their customers will
never be able to deploy Flash.
Adobe's smart customers will ask: if HTML5 works on all platforms, then WTF is the benefit of still generating Flash?
That in NO WAY invalidates the fact that there are still plenty of Flash only sites out there and plenty of flash uses (e.g. Flash games) that HTML5 is no simple substitute for regardless.
If Flash developers want their apps on iOS, then they should use Adobe's new packager (see link above).
The mere fact that this Skyfire app has raked in over $1 MILLION in sales already shows just how big that will is.
This was already covered in the discussion in message #42.
It means there are still some websites that haven't converted from the legacy platform. Once they do, there will be no need for this bridging service. Skyfire is a bridge from legacy Flash videos to the modern open internet.
In any case, your "huge" concerns do no not concern me much at all.
You don't appear to be competent to discuss those reasons.
They will be fixed as all security breaches will be fixed. I have already addressed this above.
You failed to address them competently.
Why should Apple abdicate the security of their iOS browser to a third-party company that has demonstrated itself to be especially clueless in dealing with security problems? In an age of zero-day threats, Adobe still thinks that quarterly updates are good enough. This episode of Security Now! has security expert Steve Gibson
mocking Adobe's silly policies.
You cannot use a computer in the modern world on the Internet without taking some risk of malware.
But you can minimize your risks of malware by eliminating software from the #2 (or maybe the #1) malware target on the planet. As Steve Gibson noted earlier this year: "The expectation is, among the security community, that Adobe this year, in 2010, is going to surpass Microsoft as the number one target for attacks due to the continuing problems."
OSX is not immune to possible attacks.
They have a far better record than Adobe. Apple would be stupid to bundle Adobe's buggy software with their iOS browser.
Furthermore, I said since the first post I want an option to use Flash. You would avoid all your concerns by simply leaving it turned OFF. No zero day bug can affect Flash if it's not running.
Please explain how you can possibly ensure that not a single iOS user will not lose anything the next time there's
a zero day Adobe bug. You can't.
Once again, you failed to address my question:
If the flash experience is so great, please tell us what
exact Flash sites are you talking about? What
exact legacy flash applications are running on those sites to which you can find no substitute on your iOS device?
If you can't address that question, please don't even bothering responding.