Snow leopard..... I wish I hadn't

[calderone]

Thank you; I was confused then. Makes more sense to me now. Apologies for the contretemps.

However, one more question: does the Migration process truly leave out all the old frameworks when it moves your data and preferences and applications (if you are moving any)? I still think that having that old data could cause confusion if it gets brought into the new OS. But if it is being left out, then it's a non-issue.

[edit] I guess a better way to put that is does SL know to ignore old frameworks?

No worries.

Migration will move frameworks at the local level /Library, and the user level (if any) ~/Library that support the Applications that are being migrated. It moves these because they are needed for that Application to work. It is possible that it will not be compatible, but again that just means the application needs to be updated.

Old data can cause problems, I was never denying that. But the question is what old data? It can very well be Apple plists, which should simply not be the case. My only point is that it is not necessarily 3rd party data, some problems will simply be a problem with OS X. Which is fine, but blaming the user for upgrading when that is the only real option Apple is giving you is not fair at all.

Edit addressing your edit. Snow Leopard knows some apps won't work, hence that KB I linked. The frameworks that the application uses can be left, because Apple has already move that application into an incompatible software folder. Once you update, if the framework was the problem, it will be replaced with a new version of that framework that is compatible.

Of course Apple can't focus on every application. But there is more going on than simply frameworks. But there will never be old Apple frameworks in /System when you do an upgrade. I can guarantee that.

 

[mac2x]

No worries.

Migration will move frameworks at the local level /Library, and the user level (if any) ~/Library that support the Applications that are being migrated. It moves these because they are needed for that Application to work. It is possible that it will not be compatible, but again that just means the application needs to be updated.

Old data can cause problems, I was never denying that. But the question is what old data? It can very well be Apple plists, which should simply not be the case. My only point is that it is not necessarily 3rd party data, some problems will simply be a problem with OS X. Which is fine, but blaming the user for upgrading when that is the only real option Apple is giving you is not fair at all.

Edit addressing your edit. Snow Leopard knows to move some apps, hence that KB I linked. The frameworks that the application uses can be left, because Apple has already move that application into an incompatible software folder. Once you update, if the framework was the problem, it will be replaced with a new version of that framework.

Of course Apple can't focus on every application. But there is more going on then simply frameworks. But there will never be old Apple frameworks in /System when you update.

Thanks you once again...one learns something everyday I guess. Once again, my profuse apologies for being such a jerk about it. It's too easy so assume the worst about people on the internet, though in some places (ebay) that's a good thing.

So basically, the frameworks needed for your desired apps are moved. If they or some part of the app are not compatible, you simply need to get or wait for the newest release.

So old data can be a culprit in rare cases, but it seems that Apple has done a pretty good job, then, of keeping old data of this nature out of SL. And apps that SL installer knows are on the incompatible list are duly shunted off to a folder and the associated frameworks and plists are left behind, right?

And no old data gets put in /System during migration. I think I got it clear now. Thank you so much! I'd heard a lot of bad things about the SL update process, and now it doesn't look so bleak.

In light of this, does an erase and install confer any advantage, assuming you aren't having problems that might require a reinstall?

 

[stevemiller]

Well, how do you explain the people that are not having problems? Does that mean we're doing something wrong? NO. So how is it that some people that are claiming to do full erase and installs of SL, manually installing their apps, no haxies and such are still having problems? Are they doing something wrong? Perhaps, or they have faulty hardware.
We're all using the same OS and the same computers so there's no reason for many people to have positive experiences and some not, unless the some that are not are either having hardware issues or their doing something wrong and I firmly believe that many people here don't know what a clean install truly is, because it certainly does not fall under the category of restoring from a Time Machine backup or using Migration assistant or just dumping all of their backed up files onto their clean SL install.

thanks for doing exactly what i was trying to politely ask people not to! lemmie try this once more: i did a fresh install. i didn't migrate anything. i didn't copy over anything. i didn't download anything. i didn't modify any settings. the only thing on the computer's hard drive were the bits as copied from the installer dvd, and 10.6.1 from software update.

from this pristine state, and before reinstalling any programs - because, believe it or not, an operating system is supposed to let you do this - BUT STILL, before reinstalling anything, i experienced consistently longer boot times, several safari crashes, beachballs when opening new safari tabs, wifi becoming unresponsive, and a time machine system hang when backing up the endless amounts of nothing that had accumulated on my system.

since then i've of course installed the software i need for work, and while its stuff that is listed as "snow leopard compatible" i won't go into any of the issues i had after that, since no matter what i say i'm sure you'll assume i installed haxies galore and copied 10 year old bloat and converted my macbook pro into a hackintosh somehow.

ultimately i don't have the answer for why your system works fine and mine does not. but at the same time, i really don't really owe you an explanation either. it will be especially revealing if 10.6.2 does bring resolutions to some of these issues, though. what will your stance be then? apple's magical engineers fixed the problems that existed solely on my end?

 

[Amdahl]

It's a long and convoluted pass the blame game. First it was the user and their "haxies". Then it was the installer and incompatible Libraries in the user space and system levels. The default installer when upgrading is effectively an Archive and Install anyways. Otherwise it's a clean installation after you've managed to erase the disk. Now we're on frameworks.

With any luck, this embarrassing episode will be over soon. But gosh, the RDF makes people say strange things.

 

[Eidorian]

With any luck, this embarrassing episode will be over soon. But gosh, the RDF makes people say strange things.

I was excited about Snow Leopard and bought it on day one. I convinced some peers here at home as well. It was lackluster at first and after a few days I was having to deal with their bug reports.

After using it myself I found it to be too buggy. I forced myself to live with for a month and now I'm happily back on 10.5.8. This is after several attempts and variations of clean installations as well. I just gave up and called it buggy. I spent plenty of time trying to fix Snow Leopard now the game is in Apple's court. It is what it is.

They really should have sat on it for longer because Leopard was easier out the gate than this. Like I said before I was deploying it by this point. It simplified my imaging process as well since it supported both PowerPC and Intel.

 

[doug in albq]

here is how this thread went:

1. the Original Poster was chased out of here by people with more technical knowledge on the subject.

2. Then said other technically-knowledged people started employing the typical forum tactics of A.) Thread Hijacking and B.) Thread Drift.

3. At some point this thread will take a turn for the worse, and most likely need to be removed to the wasteland (but if not the drift was strong, and long) and,

4. yet another post with the original idea of expressing dissatisfaction with the new OS Snow Leopard will have been removed from the discussion.

--classic, textbook, psyc 101, forum tactics. been there, done that, seen it before, will see it again, sorry SL is creating this type of atmosphere at a Mac tech forum...oh well, money>truth.

 

[macrem]

I don't think making accusations is how you want to conduct damage control for Snow Leopard.

I was deploying Leopard by this point across PowerPC and Intel machines except in certain instances with older hardware or VPN. I can't say the same for Snow Leopard. I'm not supporting it for now besides my test environment and anything new that can have Leopard installed is getting imaged with Leopard 10.5.8 for now. Anyone with a new iMac is out of luck if they want to buy their own machine.

10.6.1 was actually a step backward from 10.6 retail because of the additional anomalies it has introduced to my test machines.

I didn't start supporting Vista configurations until very late in the game but I'm support Windows 7 right now.

Funny then how my year old h/w is running splendidly, faster & more efficiently on SL. I must have gotten a lucky Snow Leopard DVD. Or perhaps I am not doing something wrong properly. Perhaps you could tell me the steps to recreate one of the problems that led you to your decision?

 

[*LTD*]

Funny then how my year old h/w is running splendidly, faster & more efficiently on SL. I must have gotten a lucky Snow Leopard DVD. Or perhaps I am not doing something wrong properly. Perhaps you could tell me the steps to recreate one of the problems that led you to your decision?

Everything fine here as well.

These problems only seem to happen on Apple fan sites. I wonder why.

 

[Eidorian]

Funny then how my year old h/w is running splendidly, faster & more efficiently on SL. I must have gotten a lucky Snow Leopard DVD. Or perhaps I am not doing something wrong properly. Perhaps you could tell me the steps to recreate one of the problems that led you to your decision?

Everything fine here as well.

These problems only seem to happen on Apple fan sites. I wonder why.

I have multiple copies of install media as well.

 

[*LTD*]

I have multiple copies of install media as well.

"Save As" in Safari works just fine for me. I saved a copy of that page (in your link) in HTML.

So was this it, or is the column view issue you were talking about?

 

[Eidorian]

"Save As" in Safari works just fine for me. I saved a copy of that page (in your link) in HTML.

So was this it, or is the column view issue you were talking about?

I'm glad that the Open/Save dialog works for you but it afflicts every Snow Leopard Mac under my care and every browser I've tried. This is after using different install media and clean installations.

Spotlight searches no longer have the option to use the Column View. Try it out.

 

[*LTD*]

I'm glad that the Open/Save dialog works for you but it afflicts every Snow Leopard Mac under my care and every browser I've tried. This is after using different install media and clean installations.

Spotlight searches no longer have the option to use the Column View. Try it out.

Yes, I know about the Column view issue. I'd like it back as well.

But your "save as" issue is odd. And on every Mac you have? Seems like it's not really a browser issue, but something else.

Were these upgrades or clean installs?

 

[Eidorian]

But your "save as" issue is odd. And on every Mac you have?

Every Mac that I own and in my test environment. Adobe has documented the problem. Clean installing doesn't fix it either. Not to mention clean installing has it's own batch of problems vs. upgrading.

Were these upgrades or clean installs?

I've tried upgrades and clean installations. I'm getting rather tired of repeating myself as well.

 

[*LTD*]

Every Mac that I own and in my test environment. Adobe has documented the problem. Clean installing doesn't fix it either. Not to mention clean installing has it's own batch of problems vs. upgrading.

I've tried upgrades and clean installations. I'm getting rather tired of repeating myself as well.

Other than that they are all running Snow Leopard, what is the one thing common between them? They all connected to a single printer? Is there any networking going on? Are they all running the same software? I.e., Do they all have Photoshop? What's common between them?

 

[Eidorian]

Other than that they are all running Snow Leopard, what is the one thing common between them? They all connected to a single printer? Is there any networking going on? Are they all running the same software? I.e., Do they all have Photoshop? What's common between them?

There's nothing in common. These are my own machines, my test machines, and family or friends.

I don't have any printers set up at home. I don't have any Adobe software installed. Network configuration is irrelevant.

I can replicate the Open/Save crash from a clean installation on every browser. Safari will crash 100% of the time and FireFox manages about a 40-50% survival rate.

I'm expecting the next excuse to be third party RAM or cosmic rays. I've given up on that. It's just buggy. Anything running 10.5.8 on these machines works while Snow Leopard is not.

 

[elmancho]

I've had no problems with mine, it all good over here
Its faster, better and 1/2 64 bit so ....

 

[*LTD*]

There's nothing in common. These are my own machines, my test machines, and family or friends.

I don't have any printers set up at home. I don't have any Adobe software installed. Network configuration is irrelevant.

I can replicate the Open/Save crash from a clean installation on every browser. Safari will crash 100% of the time and FireFox manages about a 40-50% survival rate.

I'm expecting the next excuse to be third party RAM or cosmic rays. I've given up on that. It's just buggy. Anything running 10.5.8 on these machines works while Snow Leopard is not.

Ok, but we can't replicate your problem. At least I can't. Tried it in Camino as well and it's fine. Do you know of anyone else with this issue?

 

[Eidorian]

Ok, but we can't replicate your problem. At least I can't. Do you know of anyone else with this issue?

Which is great and all. I've been dealing with this long enough.

http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/506/cpsid_50654.html

Start here and keep reading. I'm not using SMB either.

 

[*LTD*]

Which is great and all. I've been dealing with this long enough.

http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/506/cpsid_50654.html

Start here and keep reading. I'm not using SMB either.

Did you file a report with Apple as well? Why with Adobe? What does your issue have to do with Adobe?

 

[Eidorian]

Did you file a report with Apple as well??

Peace suggested the same as well. I only have a basic developer account.

Why with Adobe? What does your issue have to do with Adobe? Is this an SMB issue?

Seriously, it's a problem with Snow Leopard. You asked me to reproduce my Open/Save problems because you can't. This is straight from Adobe that there's a problem with it and it also includes non-Adobe applications. I'm not using SMB like I said before. It's all on the local file system. I do not have a single Adobe application installed.

 

[macrem]

I cannot reproduce the open/save issue either. Are there some in between steps we're missing to reproduce the problem?

Everything fine here as well.

These problems only seem to happen on Apple fan sites. I wonder why.

I was thinking the same thing today. All the reviews I have read about SL are great, my friends who use Macs think it's great, I think it's great. At work many people are bringing in their own Macs to work if the company won't pay for one & many other users with the know-how are installing Linux on their PCs.

 

[Amdahl]

I cannot reproduce the open/save issue either. Are there some in between steps we're missing to reproduce the problem?

Yes, you've made the same mistake as Apple: You forgot to conduct a beta test.

 

[brbubba]

Apple has always crippled those write speeds for DVDs and CDs. It still makes no sense, because if you are going to shoot off pirate DVDs you would use a dedicated replicator, NOT a mac!

 

[macrem]

Apple has always crippled those write speeds for DVDs and CDs. It still makes no sense, because if you are going to shoot off pirate DVDs you would use a dedicated replicator, NOT a mac!

This is not SL-specific, nor OS X-specific. It's firmware on the SuperDrive-specific, which can be flashed or attach another drive. OS X will not meter write speeds. When you rip & encode together, encoding is the bottleneck so it takes about the same time anyway. Though I agree that it makes no sense.

 

[Cybbe]

Everything fine here as well.
These problems only seem to happen on Apple fan sites. I wonder why.

I was thinking the same thing today. All the reviews I have read about SL are great, my friends who use Macs think it's great, I think it's great. At work many people are bringing in their own Macs to work if the company won't pay for one & many other users with the know-how are installing Linux on their PCs.

Of course these problems are popping up at Mac sites. It's where Mac users turn to when they have problems. LTDs pathetic innuendo is outright stupid. If Mac-related bugs and problems weren't reported at Mac sites, where would we expect to see them?

I'm having issues with SL as well. It's buggier than it should be, and the system crashes on me far too often. Some problems are known to be related to certain models and configurations (widely known problems with third party HDD and MBP for instance), so that not everyone is feeling the pain should come as no surprise. It seems fairly evident from all the reports that SL is not as stable as it should be.