So, about that Final Cut Pro...

Discussion in 'Digital Video' started by sevoneone, Jun 13, 2016.

  1. sevoneone macrumors 6502

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    #1
    I never expected for Apple to talk about video software or hardware at a developer event, but after the two hour presentation went by with ZERO nods to creative pros or the developers of pro creative software, I was pretty surprised. Nothing mentioned about macOS in terms of core level enhancements to video,graphics,audio,etc core frameworks. Nothing about making a better experience for creatives and developers of creative apps.

    It got me thinking, has anyone heard anything about Final Cut since the top secret sneak peek at NAB? Just curiously concerned...
     
  2. e1me5 macrumors member

    e1me5

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    #2
    I was thinking exactly the same, and I had a small hope that there was "one more thing". I don't think there are major changes for frameworks for this year's release. FCPX though needs to be updated to use METAL to become even more faster!! 3:)
    Whispers from NAB mentioned something about 360 video editing built right in FCPX.
     
  3. dorsal macrumors member

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    #3
    Feel lucky they acknowledged the existence of the Mac Pro in the keynote. Creative pros were the core Apple customer back in the day, but Apple has figured out more people watch content than make content, so that's their new core customer. I'm with you, but that's how it is. My Vader Mac could be the last Mac I own.
     
  4. mBox macrumors 68020

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    #4
    I said the same thing with my 2006 Mac Pro and 2012 Mac Pro.
    I doubt my nMP 2013 will be my last.
    Even if they kill the Mac I would just give it a twin :)
     
  5. keysofanxiety macrumors 604

    keysofanxiety

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    #5
    Shame Apple don't develop Xgrid any more. Not sure if there's anything simiar to it.

    Might be useful if they're no longer commiting to a vaguely consistent upgrade cycle.
     
  6. mBox macrumors 68020

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    #6
    In the past I had to keep up with Apple's updates.
    It was costly.
    At one point I had to stop and moved to PC/SGI for a few years.
    I think the way things are now for me and my craft (film/broadcast), Apple's offerings are just fine.
    I still use PCs for Maya/Renderman but for anything Video/Motion/Color my nMP and cMP does the trick.
    Maybe in 2020 things will be different.
     
  7. Cineplex macrumors 6502a

    Cineplex

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    #7
    Just watching the keynote and seeing the insane amount of time dedicated to emojis and the Messages app, I think its clear how Apple feels about the creative pros. Going from Final Cut Pro, DVD Studio Pro, Motion, Shake, Color, SoundTrack, & everything I am forgetting to what we have today is sad. When the consumers move on to the next big thing and iPhone sales tank, I don't think any of the creative pros will be there to keep Apple afloat this time. We all just need to face it. The Apple we grew up with is no longer here.
     
  8. mBox macrumors 68020

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    #8
    For me that happened with the iPhone.

    But honestly if they went away, I thank them for getting me where I am today.

    I can do anything on a PC that Ive learned on the Mac :)
     
  9. chrono1081 macrumors 604

    chrono1081

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    #9
    It's a developer conference, not a hardware/software event. This is a preview for developers.

    Every single year people doom and gloom over the WWDC not showing hardware/software because every year they forget what this event is.
     
  10. dorsal macrumors member

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    #10
    Shake was awesome! The definition of a "think different" UI.
     
  11. Cineplex macrumors 6502a

    Cineplex

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    #11
    First off, I've been watching these events (WWDC, MacWorld, Special Events) since they started and I can tell you that is not the case. Examples include: WWDC 2001 Power Mac G4 QuickSilver announced, 2002 Xserve announced, 2010 iPhone 4, etc...

    Second....if this is such a "developers" event....why did they spend the most time on pointless consumer crap like iMessage effects and emojis? This was a consumer event. There were so many other more technical things released that weren't even mentioned. How about the new Apple File System? Nope. Instead we got a demo of the Apple Watches new Mini Mouse face with a dress that matches your bands. What about the new Metal features? Nope instead we get a demo of how the Photos app can make videos for you. The WWDC stage has never been just "a preview for developers". It has been a place where anything can be announced. That being said it was mostly geared towards developers back in the day....but now its gone very consumer.

    As far as the doom and gloom. I remember in the 90's when all of us legit Mac users were saying Apple would survive all the financial issues at the time....everyone else was saying Apple will die. Today everyone is saying Apple will stay big and survive, and a lot of us from the 90's are saying the music is about to stop. Who has the better track record for knowing the reality of the situation? The music is going to stop...its just a matter of time. 3x emojis are not enough to keep Apple going at the size its at today. I think the betting pools should open to see how long they can stay in the new campus.

    For the record I have been a Mac user since the Mac Plus (first computer). I've been very loyal to the brand and was one of their biggest evangelists. But since the Intel transition it has gone down hill slowly. I was a user of Apples pro software, especially Shake. I won't even go into Aperture. They abandoned me and every other pro out there. Instead of building the computers and servers we wanted and used, they decided to make products for douche bags (see Gold Apple Watch). So I hope it works out for them, but it won't. The core audience is now pretentious morons that fill the Apple Stores with idiotic support problems and poor attitudes.
     
  12. Keebler macrumors 68030

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    Canada
    #12
    I'm a bit concerned as well, but is this not a week long event? I know it's not great no pro apps were mentioned whatsoever on the 1st day, but maybe news this week? (no sarcasm....purely a question).
     
  13. sevoneone thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #13
    We'll see. I doubt they will let FCP or Logic go any time soon. Doing so would raise some fairly visible negative press. I also doubt Logic is in any danger, it is a pretty solid love letter to the music industry to show Apple is committed regardless of how shallow it is. Plus it is an easy giveaway to make music industry people happy.

    I think it is important to also remember that almost none of the pro apps have ever been created by Apple. Final Cut was bought from Macromedia. Shake came from an acquisition of an offshoot of Sony Studios called Nothing Real. (The core of Motion and Compressor are built on technologies that came from Shake.) Logic from a buyout of Emagic. DVD Studio Pro from a company called Astarte. Apple took these products and really elevated them, and, in the process, brought an incredible corps of professionals to the Mac. So you had an Apple that was regularly sourcing new cutting edge technology for creative professionals because they had amazing hardware and a user vacuum to fill. Well there is no longer a user vacuum, so why spend millions upon millions gathering pro audio/video technology when it is better spent coming up with this season's watch band colors?

    I won't give up hope though. The impressions from the people that saw the NAB demos were extremely positive, so I'll hold on to see what happens with that release.

    I still think that a good course of action would be for Apple to spin off their Pro Apps business to a subsidiary company, with it's own board and executive team, like FileMaker. We get it, pro software isn't as sexy as emojis or electric cars to the average consumer. So let the Apple brand be sexy, and let the new company do what Apple won't, go out and do the pro market the service and attention to detail it deserves. Build some great software and some big ugly computers that get the job done.
     
  14. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    #14
    IMO the Apple we grew up with still exists, but we have changed.

    For example, for creative Pros Apple was key in things like desktop publishing, desktop video editing and desktop DVD authoring. The key word there is 'desktop'. Apple never made 'big iron' computers like SGI did. The 'hi end' pros at the time used expensive, proprietary hardware/software and scoffed at the more affordable solutions offered by Apple which ran on an off-the-shelf Mac. Now how many creative pros that were young bloods cutting their teeth 15-25 years ago (and very grateful to Apple for offering affordable solutions at the time) are now the 'hi end' pros that need/want the more specialized hardware and/or software? We aged out of Apple's target demographic.

    Another example is Apple's old "the computer for the rest of us" slogan. What's the computer for the rest of us today? A Mac Pro? Nope. An iMac? Doubtful. A laptop? Getting warmer. A mobile device? Bingo! The cherry on top (for Apple) is it's the closed, computing appliance that Jobs always wanted.

    I think Apple sees the Mac Pro as the modern equivalent of the SGI machines from 15-20yrs ago and Apple never wanted to compete in the market place. The iMac has grown to fill the role of the the desktop computer and a Mac laptop is fast enough to be a desktop replacement for most users.
     
  15. Cineplex macrumors 6502a

    Cineplex

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    #15
    Apple and SGI were competitors at some points. The o2 was made to compete with Macintosh in the desktop publishing market. In fact there was a breif battle with Adobe. Apple basically pressured Adobe to stop making their IRIX versions of Photoshop, Illustrator, & Premiere. Thats why the o2 was a flop in the end. Also Apple was trying to take away the need for SGI stuff with Final Cut. Many films were cut and composited with Final Cut studio. Apples software was basically the last nail in SGI's cofin. The may not have competed with with the big iron side of the business, but they sure did compete directly with the workstations. Apples angle was you didnt need SGI to make films, you could just get a Mac and Final Cut. In fact Shake was used mostly on SGI workstations. If you remember Shake for SGI was priced at like $5-10k....but if you bought the mac version it was like $499. A clear indicator they wanted everyone off SGI's stuff. I'd say they competed with SGI more than people realize.
     
  16. joema2 macrumors 65816

    joema2

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    #16
    Creative pros could not possibly keep Apple afloat -- no matter how many Apple pro apps. E.g, Avid has at least 90% of the professional Hollywood editing market, yet their total annual revenue from that segment is only about $200 million. Avid was temporarily de-listed from Nasdaq in 2014 for financial irregularities and are undergoing financial difficulties and layoffs today.

    Apple's annual revenue is about $233 *billion*. If Apple captured the entire professional video editing market segment, it would only constitute 0.1% of their current annual revenue. That is dust on the scales. It would not even visually budge the revenue dial, much less keep the company afloat.
     
  17. chrono1081 macrumors 604

    chrono1081

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    #17
    Wrong. It was a developer event because they're all things developers will develop for. I can only assume you don't develop or you'd understand all the talk about APIs is for developers.

    You do understand the Keynote is not the entire event right? The keynote gets everyone excited and the follow up sessions are where the real part of WWDC takes place, the part people pay for.

    As for the rest of what you wrote I'd be curious how many times you ever went to http://www.apple.com/feedback and actually TOLD Apple what you wanted. They're not going to read Macrumors and say "hey, this is what the crowds want!" they do research and take feedback through official channels.
     
  18. Cineplex macrumors 6502a

    Cineplex

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    #18
    Actually, when Aperture was killed I made a big stink and got all the way up to Phil Schiller. Their response to me was "here is a $100 app store credit that expires in 10 days that only works on Macs and iPods". The final answer I received was "Apple serves many market segments and makes fantastic products such as Final Cut X....blah blah blah". They did everything they could to not say "we don't care about your tiny niche". Also, back when Shake was killed I spent hours complaining to customer relations and such.....all that got me was a "great offer" to buy Shake's source code for $10k so I could ensure future compatibility. I refuse to use the online feedback form as it offers no response, I will call until I get to someone that matters....I've been doing that since the 90's.

    In closing, THEY DONT CARE!
     
  19. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    #19
    That's my point. Apple didn't need to match or exceed the offerings of SGI or Avid or Media100, Apple just needed to give 'good enough' performance at a price point that users would find difficult to pass up. I remember in the early 2000's pretty much every post house I went to had a single Mac running FCP in a corner somewhere, even though the rest of the machines were Avid, because at only $999 FCP was too-cheap to *not* kick the tires. Same thing with Shake, DVD SP, Color, etc.,. Apple blew up the cost of entry barrier and many (most?) users were more than willing to accept the performance hit because they saved so much money by going with Apple.


    'Hollywood' represents a small, but very visible, section of the market which is why with FCP X Apple aimed primarily at the fat middle of the market. Even if Apple capture 100% of the entire NLE market (from YouTubers to Hollywood) it still probably wouldn't be much compared to iPhone sales.

    I think Cineplex's point is that consumers, especially young ones, are fickle and will eventually sour on Apple and when that happens it would probably behoove Apple to have a high profile user base (like creative pros) to give a halo to the company like they had in the past.
     
  20. loby, Jun 16, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2016

    loby macrumors 6502a

    loby

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    #20
    Generally...yes they do not care. But the 'they' is not the working employee but those that make the big decisions and they have enough money right now not to care.

    About two years ago when the Logic Pro X team released one of the earliest updates after 10.0, basically the update caused major issues with third party hardware and apple was getting calls and feedback at a large volume, but just complaints with no technical info. so they did not know what to do about it.. The update caused my production and projects to stop completely and had deadlines and called, taking a long shot to see If I could resolve it. I called support and they actually patched me though to the Logic Pro X team themselves.

    In fact, I believe I talked directly with the original creator of Logic who had a german accent. It seemed he was getting a lot of heat from management about the issue, but was not getting any direct or technical feedback, just complaints. He said that many people complained, but he basically said, 'What is wrong with it? I spend a good few hours off and on assisted to help figure out what was wrong and then a week later they released another version that cleared the issues. He was grateful that I spent the time and talked through the issues instead of just complaining.

    All of that said is that not all at Apple 'don't care', it is unfortunately that those who have enough money in the bank are the ones making the big decisions. I suggest keep doing feedback and calling, for sometimes you may get someone who will listen. Never hurts to try.

    But..the Apple of old is gone...I just bought a refurbish mac pro and had to return it the next day due to issues...apparently I knew more about the graphics card recall then they did. Not good when I know the issue and they did not...
     
  21. joema2 macrumors 65816

    joema2

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    #21
    I think he was under the misguided viewpoint that the "creative pro" user segment would not "keep Apple afloat" financially. That is clear from his statement "this time", vs in former times. Back when Apple was a much smaller company, Mac-related revenues constituted the bulk of their income keeping them afloat. Back then the relative % of influence and financial contribution from creative pros was major.

    In 2003, Apple's total annual revenue was about $6.2 billion, of which Mac-related revenue constituted $4.5 billion or 72%.

    Today Apple's total annual revenue is $233 billion, and Mac-related revenue is $21 billion, but that only constitutes 8.9% of Apple's total revenue.

    Today the total revenue from "creative pros" is so small there is no chance of that keeping Apple financially afloat if the smartphone segment declines. This has little to do with Apple's success or failure to cultivate the professional market segment. That market segment is just not big enough, regardless of what Apple does.
     
  22. Cineplex macrumors 6502a

    Cineplex

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    #22
    I never said the pro market could sustain the current size of Apple. My overall point is they are focusing so much on iPhones and iPads that if someone comes along and takes that business away, they are in big trouble. Putting all the eggs in one basket never wins. Loosing the pro market is less about income and more about marketing. The marketing value of the film and music pro apps brought a large percentage of users in. If you loose you evangelists, you loose your marketing driving force. Mac evangelism got Apple to where it is today. The majority of new customers are fickle and have zero brand loyalty. Its a dangerouse game. The iPhone wont be on top forever. So what happens then?
     
  23. LiveM macrumors 6502a

    LiveM

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    #23
    Steve Jobs was shocked and surprised at the reaction to Final Cut Pro X. He was warned and got a "told you so" by its creator who wanted there to be two versions at launch. That's why they got it up to speed so quickly after launch.
     
  24. Cineplex macrumors 6502a

    Cineplex

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    #24
    Your story is missing a few nice details...here is the article.

    "My idea was that Final Cut 7 should stay exactly as it was for about a year, and every time you bought a copy of X you got a copy of 7. They didn’t want to hear it. I knew 16 months before the launch that I was going to have a bunch of arrows in my back. I was going to be blamed for this big transition. It’s the Apple way of doing things: ‘Feet first, jump in!’


    The very last conversation I had with Steve Jobs was right after the launch of Final Cut Pro X. I was getting ready to get on a plane to go to London to record the second set of movie trailers – we’d hired the London Symphony Orchestra [to perform the music that was going to be bundled with the next version of iMovie] – and Steve caught me at home: “What the heck is going on with this Final Cut X thing?” I said “We knew this was coming, we knew that people were going to freak out when we changed everything out from under them. We could have done this better. We should have. Final Cut 7 should be back on the market. We should have an FAQ that lists what this is all about.” He said “Yeah, let’s get out and fund this thing, let’s make sure we get on top of this thing, move quickly with releases…” and he finished by asking: “Do you believe in this?” I said “Yes.” He said “then I do too.” -Randy Ubillos (Final Cut Creator) interviewed by Alex Gollner

     
  25. LiveM macrumors 6502a

    LiveM

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    #25
    So why did you say they don't care about this niche??!!

    That guy believes Final Cut Pro X became the better software. Not having two versions at launch was about merchandising philosophy, not ignoring customer needs.
     

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