Sonnet Shipping First New Thunderbolt 2 PCIe Expansion Chassis

[ScottishCaptain]

AWW YISS!

PCI-e 4x bandwidth speeds! More fans, power supplies, and cables!

BRING ON THE EXPANDABILITY! WOOOOOOO!

-SC

 

[Defo]

There really should a Thunderbolt usage for beginners FAQ on here somewhere and if there is, it should be linked on every thunderbolt article for easy reference.

Thunderbolt2 offers 2 x 10Gbit/s channels combined. Thunderbolt offers them as seperate channels. Neither of those speeds offer anywhere near the bandwidth of a 16xPCie card and even then, most higher end GPUs are double-wide and need internal power. You'd end up using 2 slots for 1 card, leaving only 1 PCIe slot for other uses and then cripple the card with bandwidth that doesn't even come close to 4xPCIe.

TB2 gives 94% of native peformance on AMD cards, and 88% on Nvidia cards. Hardly a big peformance hit...

 

[barkmonster]

While I understand that Thunderbolt has a MUCH lower bandwidth than x16 (8 GB/s), couldn't a graphics card, not necessarily a powerful one, still increase the computational power for gfx a fair amount?

and

TB2 gives 94% of native peformance on AMD cards, and 88% on Nvidia cards. Hardly a big peformance hit...

I've seen the benchmarks on some sites and a lot of it is academic. The fact remains to use any GPUs that offer real performance benefits, you need to waste 2 PCIe slots for the double wide size and provide a power feed. That means you render a 2 slot (with power feed) expansion box useless for further expansion or have to spend a lot on wasting 2 of 3 slots on a more expensive system. Let's not forget the full-length PCIe slot expansion system typically are 3 slot to begin with for it to be worth them producing them in the first place and the ridiculous idea some laptop owners have of running a desktop GPU via thunderbolt without being tied to a desk is even more wishful thinking than it sounds.

 

[theluggage]

Just because it's for "professionals" doesn't mean it has to be expensive!

If being "for professionals" means that the market is smaller then, yes it does. Volume is everything in manufacture - particularly electronics. You have huge fixed up-front costs for design, development, testing, certification and "tooling up" for manufacture that have to be recouped from manufactures. The more you plan to make, the more money you can spend on streamlining the production process. Component costs go down dramatically if you can buy them in huge numbers.

The reality is that external PCIe expansion is not "only for professionals" - it's only for a tiny niche market that use Macs and need specialist cards for which there is no other Thunderbolt-based equivalent.

It's like being a "professional" product is an excuse to price gouge the customer.

Well, yes, there's some of that, too.

 

[Dr.LectorII]

Don't think it can be more ugly, they didn't spend too much on design.

 

[barkmonster]

Don't think it can be more ugly, they didn't spend too much on design.

As a functional rackmount enclosure, it's actually a lot sleeker than it could be. Have you seen the ugly PC cases available for rack mount systems? Especially those bespoke "audio PCs" that any self-builder could put together a lot cheaper than they charge for them?

 

[revco]

Don't think it can be more ugly, they didn't spend too much on design.

Well it certainly has that "designed by engineers" look to it.

 

[SleeplessChaos]

and



I've seen the benchmarks on some sites and a lot of it is academic. The fact remains to use any GPUs that offer real performance benefits, you need to waste 2 PCIe slots for the double wide size and provide a power feed. That means you render a 2 slot (with power feed) expansion box useless for further expansion or have to spend a lot on wasting 2 of 3 slots on a more expensive system. Let's not forget the full-length PCIe slot expansion system typically are 3 slot to begin with for it to be worth them producing them in the first place and the ridiculous idea some laptop owners have of running a desktop GPU via thunderbolt without being tied to a desk is even more wishful thinking than it sounds.

You're missing the point of connecting an external GPU... If people wanted portable power for their laptops without worrying about size and battery life, they'd just buy a high end gaming laptop. The large market for this type of device is people that want to have portability, small form factor and battery life without sacrificing power when they're at home or in a hotel room or any sort of "home base." As much as portable technology advances, it will always be behind the power of desktop devices (or until battery power is equivalent to in-home power) and this is the perfect solution for the choice between portability and performance.

Also, for the record, the price of this enclosure is absolutely ludicrous, no matter what your profession is.

 

[mBox]

I can see them selling a few to Pro Tools users who have spent thousands on PCIe cards.

There is a long list of use for us:

RED ROCKET (and X)
Avid HBA for Nitris DX
Digidesign HBA for MAGMA (HD Accel cards for Pro Tools)
Black Magic Design (whatever is supported))
ATTO R680 SAS (and some Fibre cards)
Aja (whatever is supported)

Im sure there are more cards to add.

Were excited since NETSTOR, MAGMA ROBEN-3 and more are throwing in their TB2 options quickly

----------

Yah I think the price is fine. LOL @ complaining about $500 PCI expansion slots when you're paying $80,000 for a camera.

LOL Im up to 40K with my RED

Last PCI enclosure we purchased was 3K from CUBIX.

 

[bsbeamer]

There is a long list of use for us:

RED ROCKET (and X)
Avid HBA for Nitris DX
Digidesign HBA for MAGMA (HD Accel cards for Pro Tools)
Black Magic Design (whatever is supported))
ATTO R680 SAS (and some Fibre cards)
Aja (whatever is supported)

Im sure there are more cards to add.

Were excited since NETSTOR, MAGMA ROBEN-3 and more are throwing in their TB2 options quickly

The Avid/ProTools options for this are going to be huge - they don't really offer anything comparable that isn't a PCIe card.

Unfortunately, CalDigit discontinued their "workstation" non-rackmount HDPro2 units, but I'm sure the PCIe cards could still work with this expansion chassis to keep those RAID-5 units running with newer hardware. That would be one of the most critical things for me to even consider purchasing - cost savings vs buying a brand new Thunderbolt RAID-5 unit.

I'd imagine AJA coming up with a way to have Kona3 support with this as well, unless they have something else up their sleeve. Though I have to say, it's arguable that the need for a card of this caliber is dwindling a bit with native support for 4K monitoring.

Waiting until NAB before I make a lot of decisions like this. Only a few weeks after actual availability of the new MacPro's for those of us that didn't make the early AM orders...

 

[mabhatter]

Is that price for real???
F-that...

Don't see many of these moving...

If people are complaining about video and fiber-channel that are $500-$1000 add-in cards another $500 isn't really breaking bank. It really separates the "pros" from the "hobbiests" because for a Pro, these should be a day or two's pay at most....because they're using the tools to make money.

It's no different than construction guys that spend $50 on a high quality hammer.. Because they need better than a Walmart one when swinging it 8 hours a day. If it breaks, they lose a days pay driving to the store for something that's $15 vs $50 that $50 isn't so bad when its keeping you working.

 

[wikiverse]

No, these are for professionals.

These aren't for home users and gamers.

The audience is defined by the price. Home users and gamers don't spend $1000 on PCI expansion slots.

The audience is defined by the need to use PCI cards and the purchase of a TB or TB2 equipped computer.

Price doesn't determine audience for any product. It that were true, college students wouldn't be carrying around rMBPs and the iPhone wouldn't be the top selling US handset with AT&T the biggest telco.

The idea that only a professional would buy expensive equipment is just wrong, along with the idea that home users and gamers are all poor and couldn't possibly be able to afford things they want.

Considering that most desktop PCs offer PCI expansion slots for free, and they are faster than TB2, a professional is more likely to invest in the product that gives maximum return for minimum outlay - in which case 'professionals' wouldn't be buying this product at all.

This is expensive because it is a niche product in terms of utility, not because 'professionals' are willing to pay the asking price.

 

[mBox]

...Waiting until NAB before I make a lot of decisions like this. Only a few weeks after actual availability of the new MacPro's for those of us that didn't make the early AM orders...

Ours is scheduled for mid Feb.

Aren't we always waiting for NAB

 

[barkmonster]

You're missing the point of connecting an external GPU... If people wanted portable power for their laptops without worrying about size and battery life, they'd just buy a high end gaming laptop. The large market for this type of device is people that want to have portability, small form factor and battery life without sacrificing power when they're at home or in a hotel room or any sort of "home base." As much as portable technology advances, it will always be behind the power of desktop devices (or until battery power is equivalent to in-home power) and this is the perfect solution for the choice between portability and performance.

Also, for the record, the price of this enclosure is absolutely ludicrous, no matter what your profession is.

I see your point but the issues with internal power, sarcrificing of PCIe slots and the need for full length slots still stand. There's nothing someone in need of a more powerful GPU could do in a hotel room with a laptop unless they were carting around a screen to go with it. Unless they were using OpenCL or CUDA and the GPU wasn't even for a screen but that's getting into the realms of so specialised, why would they be doing it in a hotel in the first place?

I agree about the price, it's the same with multi-drive enclosures, you're looking a few £100 for a USB 3.0 DAS drive but £500+ for the Thunderbolt equivalent. Some are even gouging customers further by offering either Gigabit only or making you buy Thunderbolt/USB 3.0 as the only alternative (Drobbo, Synology etc...).

 

[djphat2000]

I'm glad that Sonnet is shipping something in the near future. I'm still waiting for word on their Echo 15. The last update they posted was in October. There are still so few options for versatile T-Bolt docks. Sonnet got this one right, but who knows when -- if ever -- it will ship.

Absolutely. I need 2 of them for my office when we get our new Mac Pro's.
It's really a nice product that does quite a bit with just one cable. That thing should fly off the shelves once it launches.

 

[El Hikaru]

I love the idea but expensive.

 

[vmistery]

Oooo 10GbE, I can connect it directly to our network backbone! What is more my local storage would probably still be faster than the servers I connect to!

 

[milo]

Considering that most desktop PCs offer PCI expansion slots for free, and they are faster than TB2, a professional is more likely to invest in the product that gives maximum return for minimum outlay - in which case 'professionals' wouldn't be buying this product at all.

Different users have different needs. Some pros care more about the "free" PCIe slots and will stick with their older machines, others may have just one or two cards but want other things the new Mac Pro offers.

And at this point just about anything beyond a graphics card that uses PCIe is a niche product.

 

[miguel cortez]

Doubt it. Getting support for dual GPUs is going to be hard enough.

----------



Is there a simple data on average bandwidth use for 1x, 2x, 3x, and 4x GPU setups?

https://www.apple.com/final-cut-pro/whats-new/

 

[ChrisA]

Is that price for real???
F-that...

Don't see many of these moving...

Not many kids will buy these for video games but if you assume the person using this is getting paid even as low as $50 per hour the $1000 box does not add much to the goal cost over it's 3 year lifetime.

Or if this box is running a $200,000 x-ray machine this box does not add much cost.

 

[tarrant]

Also, for the record, the price of this enclosure is absolutely ludicrous, no matter what your profession is.

Around 1997, we were paying over $1,000 for an CardBus-to-PCI enclosure. Paying the same price (in inflated dollars) for an enclosure which is many times faster doesn't seem so bad.

You'll always pay a premium to be an early adopter of niche technology. The people who *need* to attach PCIe devices via ThunderBolt are those who are using the devices for their work, i.e. to make money —*if you can make more additional money by using your card than the price of the enclosure, it’s a good investment.

These devices are not that expensive to *manufacture*, but the design is not easy, and companies tend to provide very good support — if your AVID card isn’t working in the enclosure, you’ll likely be on the phone with one of the engineers at Sonnet before long. Consider also that Sonnet’s providing a free upgrade to purchasers of the last model —*that’s not cheap.

 

[meddinstudios]

We own the Echo boxes here along with the Magma 3T versions.

The new Echo Express III Rack Mount is excellent. It has a locking Thunderbolt cable bracket, 2 8X and 1 16X slots (all are 4X electrical) and the option to add two 5.25 bay accessories on the side with the add-on.

For those that asked about the expansion 5.25 rack option it is a 250W power supply with a fan out of various cables inside a long 5.25 wide by 2 slot tall box that slides into the side of the Echo. It has its own power cable and power switch along with a grommet hole for feeding cable through to the drives. You can buy a 4 or 6 slot 2.5 bay host that adapts to 5.25". We are preparing ours with 12 2.5" drives hosted by an Areca raid card. The only problem is that there is no side hole to push cable through the inside of the box. All cable between the rack add-on and the expansion slots must pass through the OUTSIDE of the enclosure. Big issue for internal RAID cards.

For $1400 (with the Rack add-on) these are excellent alternatives to server machines and great for mobile workstations that are built into flypacks. They are meant for professionals looking to add cards to their nMP, iMac, rMBP etc.

GPU are NOT supported under OSX at this time and it has already been tested and explained through various forums that Thunderbolt 2 is essentially a PCIe 2.0 X4 slot. We have tested a Red Rocket Card, RAID, and Black Magic Decklink all inside one enclosure with only a 5-15% performance hit depending on the workflow. In most scenarios there were no performance drops compared to a Mac Pro tower (pre 2013) with the same cards installed. You WILL saturate a Thunderbolt chassis with multiple 8X cards and see a performance hit of 5-15% with cards like a RED Rocket. However the GPU improvements of these apps is enough to fill the gap.

Hope Sonnet keeps up the good work and releases the Echo 15 soon.

 

[imageWIS]

LOL. Perhaps you didn't realize there was a time when computers cost more?

Mac SE/30
$6500
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_classic/specs/mac_se30.html

:facepalm: And you don't realize what economies of scale are.

 

[Consultant]

:facepalm: And you don't realize what economies of scale are.

Perhaps you don't understand purchase power or inflation. How do people afford a computer back then?

If you don't have a thousand dollars today, then perhaps it's time to get a job.

 

[chirpie]

Price doesn't determine audience for any product. It that were true, college students wouldn't be carrying around rMBPs and the iPhone wouldn't be the top selling US handset with AT&T the biggest telco.

Respectfully disagree. You're talking about devices that people use day in and day out that they buy once every couple years at basically reasonable prices.

You darn well better believe the price of a Ferrari determines the audience. You darn well better believe the price of a Nissan Versa determines the audience.

Heck, people in these very forums bash "cheap" Andriod products because anyone can afford to buy them and they do better in low income economies so they flood the market with a larger audience.

Taking it one step further, high end audio is something I love to dabble in, and I constantly hear about how the price of the speaker is set based not on it's build cost, but by where they want to position themselves in the market. Price can be used as a marketing tool and it is used as one all the time.