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Sony Connect Launches
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PlaceofDis said:
Well sure, I think that's kind of the point though. Sony also make CD and solid state MP3 players that are compatible with this service, so they're covering a lot of market space that Apple aren't even trying to reach.
That was true 10 years ago with ATRAC 1, but the Connect service is using ATRAC 3plus encoded at 132kbps. That's not shabby at all.
There are about as many ATRAC players in circulation as iPods, so don't count this offering out just yet.
well i've sworn by my minidisc walkman for years now - the two i've had have served me well - it always surprised me how or why MD was considered a failure - all the advantages that sony pushed really were advantages, and not just hype or talk. the advantages of tape - small, portable *plus* the advantages of cd - digital, easy track access *plus* sturdier than cd with the case, more flexible than cd with the join, split and move tracks functionality - all really good stuff IMO.
so when mp3 players and the ipod first appeared I had no techno lust for either. the sony mp3 players looked the part, but what was all that crap with the memory stick? prohibitively expensive for relatively small storage.
however, now I have the powerbook and itunes (which wipes the floor with anything else), and am actually using it for listening to music and creating a music library on the laptop - not something WMA ever inspired me to do.
and now iPods have such huge storage capacity, the combination of the greatness of itunes, the coolness factor of the iPod, and the whole idea of having my entire music collection in my pocket, and the ability to produce endless playlists at the click of a mouse without faffing around with blank discs, then the time has come to hang up my trusty MD player and invest in an iPod.
now if only we had ITMS over here....
Iain
so when mp3 players and the ipod first appeared I had no techno lust for either. the sony mp3 players looked the part, but what was all that crap with the memory stick? prohibitively expensive for relatively small storage.
however, now I have the powerbook and itunes (which wipes the floor with anything else), and am actually using it for listening to music and creating a music library on the laptop - not something WMA ever inspired me to do.
and now iPods have such huge storage capacity, the combination of the greatness of itunes, the coolness factor of the iPod, and the whole idea of having my entire music collection in my pocket, and the ability to produce endless playlists at the click of a mouse without faffing around with blank discs, then the time has come to hang up my trusty MD player and invest in an iPod.
now if only we had ITMS over here....
Iain
It's not poor planning, it's their business model.germ war said:
That's one of the odd things about Sony. Their war chest is so big that they can afford to develop, promote and maintain proprietary formats 'til the cows come home.macridah said:
Apple places innovation over profits. Sony places profit before innovation. Apple is a leader. Sony is a follower. Apple wants everything it brands to be the best in the industry and often makes its stuff cross-platform compatible. Sony would settle for popularity over quality any day and won't offer compatibility outside of its product line unless forced to.coolfactor said:
Credit Sony's near cult-like following and bullet-proof brand image in Japan.bertagert said:
It's often been rumored that Sony might one day buy Apple. But when you look past the money you'll find the two companies could never agree to a merger. Beyond the basic philisophical and cultural differences at play, I just can't see Jobs playing second fiddle to anyone.
dongmin said:
Minidiscs do not support wma or even mp3. If you have ever used their netMD software, you would realize that you'd have to convert them into ATRAC in order to be able to play it on an MD.
Also, ATRAC is not worse than AAC 128kbps. ATRAC supports up to 256kbps (if i recall correctly). The quality is definitely better than AAC 128kbps.
Anyways, Sony is again going to fail. They try to enforce something they can't. Either you do what the customers want, or you'll start losing profit and that's exactly what Sony is doing right now.
the only good thing about this is that it is another music store that does not use wma, given it doesnt use AAC but at least its no wma
to MD or not MD...
I used to have a MiniDisc player, in fact I still do and it was a joy to listen to. My major beef with Sony was the proprietary technology barriers they chose to put up. The most major being the jukebox software which was an absolute joke. Even if you had Mp3's or WMA's it needed to be converted into one of three types of ATRAC formats in three different quality ranges.
The jukebox was kind of a joke with very little playlist support and it would keep both versions of the files, both the original and then the processed ATRAC version, effectively increasing the need for hard drive space by an extra 30% or so depending on how much of a qualitywh0re you were.
My second peice of beef was that information couldn't be taken off the minidiscs for security reasons, meaning that if you had put a bunch of music on a disc, there was no way to ever get that music back off it...leading to piles and piles of minidiscs laying around that really couldn't be modified much more than being added on to or re-arranged.
Speed-wise I also had some beef with the minidiscs since the transfer time on my model (within the last 2 years) was touted as "32x faster" which would have been true if I were to stick with an 64 kbps low-rate music suitable to that of a tape player. Even so, filling up four hours of music still took close to 30-45 minutes on a reasonably fast PC (933 mhz. at the time).
Sony has kind of shot themselves in the foot on this one...it's obviously not any kind of competition with iTunes as it offers better software which is the key. I still think Sony does an excellent job with design on MD players as I could still easily pick up mine and go use it at the gym (it gets 50 hours of battery and weighs about a cassette tape with 1 AA battery). But I'd prefer my 30gb iPod thanks
My bet is this thing lasts for a year before failing hideously.
I used to have a MiniDisc player, in fact I still do and it was a joy to listen to. My major beef with Sony was the proprietary technology barriers they chose to put up. The most major being the jukebox software which was an absolute joke. Even if you had Mp3's or WMA's it needed to be converted into one of three types of ATRAC formats in three different quality ranges.
The jukebox was kind of a joke with very little playlist support and it would keep both versions of the files, both the original and then the processed ATRAC version, effectively increasing the need for hard drive space by an extra 30% or so depending on how much of a qualitywh0re you were.
My second peice of beef was that information couldn't be taken off the minidiscs for security reasons, meaning that if you had put a bunch of music on a disc, there was no way to ever get that music back off it...leading to piles and piles of minidiscs laying around that really couldn't be modified much more than being added on to or re-arranged.
Speed-wise I also had some beef with the minidiscs since the transfer time on my model (within the last 2 years) was touted as "32x faster" which would have been true if I were to stick with an 64 kbps low-rate music suitable to that of a tape player. Even so, filling up four hours of music still took close to 30-45 minutes on a reasonably fast PC (933 mhz. at the time).
Sony has kind of shot themselves in the foot on this one...it's obviously not any kind of competition with iTunes as it offers better software which is the key. I still think Sony does an excellent job with design on MD players as I could still easily pick up mine and go use it at the gym (it gets 50 hours of battery and weighs about a cassette tape with 1 AA battery). But I'd prefer my 30gb iPod thanks
My bet is this thing lasts for a year before failing hideously.
yujini said:
Actually I consider Sony, Apples unsuccessful counterpart. They try and pull an Apple time and again by going their own way and making proprietary, yet beautiful, stuff. The diff is they typically fall flat on their face.
I feel that I need to dispell this myth. ITUNES IS NOT RUNNING IN THE RED. It may not be very profitable, but it is not unprofitable, according to the Wall Street Journal. Supposedly Itunes has already turned a small profit.
Aside from this, MD seems pretty regressive, and I think it may do better in the international market. My roommate bought a MD player over Christmas, and I was thinking "why did you waste your money on this?" He is Korean. His does not even have a USB connection. Also, I am not totally sure MD is totally just a laser. Somewhere I read a long time ago that the laser alters magnetic properties of the disc.
Bubba
Aside from this, MD seems pretty regressive, and I think it may do better in the international market. My roommate bought a MD player over Christmas, and I was thinking "why did you waste your money on this?" He is Korean. His does not even have a USB connection. Also, I am not totally sure MD is totally just a laser. Somewhere I read a long time ago that the laser alters magnetic properties of the disc.
Bubba
coolfactor said:
exactly. love Apple, love some Sony products, but this attitude of "we're going to do whatever the hell we want & we'll tell the end user what they want b/c we control the technology" is getting kind of tired.
i've bought a buttload of songs off iTMS, but i sure would like the option to download 192k AAC files, which is what i rip all my CDs at.
my first "MP3" player was a Sony about 3-4 years ago. great form factor, used those tiny little memory sticks, but i had to convert every frickin' MP3 i had to that kludgy ATRAC format & then going about "checking in" & "checking out" files. obnoxious.
good luck w/ the minidiscs, Sony! i'm going to wait on my 60GB color iPod, thx...
JDOG_ actually nailed it, formats aside, the software goes a LOOOOoong way to set the iPod/iTunes/iTMS apart from the pack. i HATED the stupid jukebox software i had on my PC laptop (i kept a Toshiba around for a year just to update the music on my music player. what the f*??). i'm sure Sony has improved open it by now (for god's sake, i hope so), but it's just such a joy to rip, organize, upload, etc. all my music in iTunes. so it doesn't have the thousands of skins that Winamp does & it doesn't support all the formats out there, but it's so clean & precise that it just makes me happy...
Frankly, I consider Apple having lost the McDonald's deal a good thing. I know I live in a social microcosm (Manhattan), but McDonald's is GHETTO.
bubbagump said:
MD uses laser at two different power settings. more powerful laser is used to align the polarizable switches (not sure exactly what, though) on the disc. this is recording. less powerful laser is used to read those switches. this is play back.
magnets are used to record song titles, disc titles, song lengths, etc. but not the actual music.
I know this isn't exactly on point, but there's been a quite a bit of blind mini-disc trashing here. For a period of almost 2 years (1998-9), before I had a CD burner on my 'puter, I used a mni-disc player on a daily basis. I had a component system at home to burn mixes from CD's and a walkman to listen as walked the mile from Duke's parking lot to the law school. Never had any problems with it at all, great sound and the thing took a beating and still works. (I just tested it). Never skipped and no sound degredation with multiple re-records.
This was before there was any compression of tracks, so it had exactly the same capacity of a CD, which made it easy for me to convert when I got a CD burner. I often look for a reason to reincorporate the MD into my everyday life, but with my iPod there just isn't a reason. Like my dozens of old mnixes on casettes - there just playlists on the iPod now.
This was before there was any compression of tracks, so it had exactly the same capacity of a CD, which made it easy for me to convert when I got a CD burner. I often look for a reason to reincorporate the MD into my everyday life, but with my iPod there just isn't a reason. Like my dozens of old mnixes on casettes - there just playlists on the iPod now.
iPod and Apple have downsides as well
This site is ridiculously bias toward Apple! Sony is a great company, makes solid products, and has been successful longer than Apple has even existed.
I am a big Apple fan but the iPod definitely needs improvement. Number one on my list is a compact memory version rather than a HD system. I have gone through 3 iPods already and I can only get an average life of about 18 months out of the iPod HD before it tanks.
Also Sony could not have supported AAC with FairPlay because Apple would not have granted them a license. So it makes sense that Sony supports their own format which is flexible enough to be converted to wma or mp3.
Next, who says that Sony is not working on new jukebox type software to aid in the purchase, download, transfer of Attrac format songs to MD and Memory stick for various players.
Frankly competition is good for Apple otherwise they would sit on their laurels, competition forces Apple to innovate or die. Apple does it's best work when it is under pressure to survive.
Finally, I don't personally download music from itms. I buy cd's and rip my own. Mainly because I have seen proprietary encryption services evolve before. Directv, videocipher, videocipherII, etc. etc. All of these systems get cracked and when they do the companies introduce new encryption. This happens over and over and guess what, the subscriber is the loser.
How will all of the itms users feel when in 3 years AAC fairplay is abandoned and "encryptionofthemonth" is used instead. Now your entire music catalog is frozen in time and your only option is to re-buy everything using the new "encryptionofthemonth" technology with better specs. You might be able to convert from AAC fairplay to "encryptionofthemonth" but it will be at a loss of quality.
Who gets burned? Apple, who get to re-sell their entire catalog? The music industry? The user who bought into the itms scheme?
This site is ridiculously bias toward Apple! Sony is a great company, makes solid products, and has been successful longer than Apple has even existed.
I am a big Apple fan but the iPod definitely needs improvement. Number one on my list is a compact memory version rather than a HD system. I have gone through 3 iPods already and I can only get an average life of about 18 months out of the iPod HD before it tanks.
Also Sony could not have supported AAC with FairPlay because Apple would not have granted them a license. So it makes sense that Sony supports their own format which is flexible enough to be converted to wma or mp3.
Next, who says that Sony is not working on new jukebox type software to aid in the purchase, download, transfer of Attrac format songs to MD and Memory stick for various players.
Frankly competition is good for Apple otherwise they would sit on their laurels, competition forces Apple to innovate or die. Apple does it's best work when it is under pressure to survive.
Finally, I don't personally download music from itms. I buy cd's and rip my own. Mainly because I have seen proprietary encryption services evolve before. Directv, videocipher, videocipherII, etc. etc. All of these systems get cracked and when they do the companies introduce new encryption. This happens over and over and guess what, the subscriber is the loser.
How will all of the itms users feel when in 3 years AAC fairplay is abandoned and "encryptionofthemonth" is used instead. Now your entire music catalog is frozen in time and your only option is to re-buy everything using the new "encryptionofthemonth" technology with better specs. You might be able to convert from AAC fairplay to "encryptionofthemonth" but it will be at a loss of quality.
Who gets burned? Apple, who get to re-sell their entire catalog? The music industry? The user who bought into the itms scheme?
Yahoo for Sony!! I see this impacting Apple iPod sales very little as well as iTMS. I am extremly glad Sny pushed for trying to save the mini-disc. Hey, this is from he same company that stopped selling Beta tape players 99' right? (I think that was teh year) Sony loves to hang onto it's propreitary formats adn fights for them until the death. This is good for those that purchased mini-disc players, adn great for us Apple fanatics whom were worried about a real possible contender from Sony. Good news all around.
Don't laugh too hard
Let's not forget how Sony entered the US market (those of us old enough to remember). They began with mediocre equipment and undercut the prices of all competitors (at a loss) until they captured huge market share and brand recognition. Given their existing interests in the music industry, they are certainly in a position to attempt this again, and may be willing to cut download prices dramatically in an effort to undermine the competition and gain a long-term lead.
Let's not forget how Sony entered the US market (those of us old enough to remember). They began with mediocre equipment and undercut the prices of all competitors (at a loss) until they captured huge market share and brand recognition. Given their existing interests in the music industry, they are certainly in a position to attempt this again, and may be willing to cut download prices dramatically in an effort to undermine the competition and gain a long-term lead.
PlaceofDis said:
ATRAC has good quality. I don't think you could tell the difference on headphones, on a home stereo you may be able to but most of us can't. I have seen tests where ATRAC was better in almost all regards to MP3, not sure about AAC, however.
I have been using my MiniDisc player with my Mac for years. The only think you don't get is the Net portion where it dumps everthing over USB. I use the USB to fiber optic converter (included) to do everything. Unfortunately, no track information gets transferred (I don't care) and it is done in real-time which is the main negative point.
dontmatter said:
A mispoint.
There is 1 GiG PER HI-MD , not the MD Player. This is a MD player, and you use minidiscs with it, which each has a gig capacity.
They will retail aroung 7$ each. And the player is to cost 325$, (much higher if you buy through Sony, though; maybe like 400$)
If you make a rough calculation:
7$ * 10 Discs = 70 $ That will give you 10 GIG. Plus, 325$ for the player, you will have 10 GIGS of DATA, not just music, all removable, for under 400$
now, thats very high Cost/Benefit. (count batt life too)
Daschund said:
You'll probably be able to listen to it on your PC, just not on a portable player.
digitalbiker said:
i don't dispute that some of the posts here are extremely biased in favor of apple, but what you said above is impossible. ipod's been out for 3 years. if you had three ipods averaging 18 months, the first one you purchased must have been 4.5 years ago. (unless, of course, you purchase new iPods before the old one dies, but continued to use both new and old ones until they tank.)
fener said:
removable isn't necessarily better. according to your example, to get 70 GB capacity, you will need to carry 6 discs that aren't in the player. that's 6 extra things perhaps some of us don't want to carry.
you could have made the exact same argument against first 5 GB iPod. you could have gotten 5 GB of music/data with mp3 CD player and 7 extra CD-Rs and that would have been a lot cheaper than $500 first gen iPod. however, iPod took off anyway. (i realize MDs are much smaller than CDs, but i think my point still stands.)
you get good capacity for money. but benefit part is arguable.
jxyama said:
yup yup. so i'm glad there's a choice out there & different players for people w/ different priorities. i surely do not want to tote around a stack of MD's and figure out what music i want to listen to and which disc it's on. i want my ENTIRE library with me at all times: at work, in my car, and on my computer at home. i can hit "random" and listen for the next 19 days.
of course, i'm not real keen on taking my iPod jogging w/ me either. it's bulky & i'm a little leary w/ bouncing a hard drive player around too much. it just doesn't seem like a good idea. but, for those that that's a priority, they can buy a really nice flash based (or MD) player & not have to worry about either of those problems.
to each their own: HD, flash, MD, ATRAC, WMA, AAC, etc, etc. i'm just happy in the knowledge that i own the better player...
This is odd. I'm not worried about Sony, or music match, or really any of the semi-legitimate competition to itms. Clearly itunes is the best. WMA, with it's many users, still poses a threat, but, it's apples' own damned fault if they sink b/c they don't lisence out AAC and fairplay.
The only one that scares me, that might have anything at the moment on apple, is the one provided by the devil. No, not MS, they're just satanic worshipers. Wal-mart. this is america. People will always go for cheaper. Wal-mart can sell at a loss for as long as it takes to get market share. Anyone know the numbers for them, how they're doing, all that? I looked, and scarily, they actually have some indie stuff and a decent selection, although not as good as itunes, and I'm still dissapointed in theirs.
But, for most people in this country, man... this could be bad news.
The only one that scares me, that might have anything at the moment on apple, is the one provided by the devil. No, not MS, they're just satanic worshipers. Wal-mart. this is america. People will always go for cheaper. Wal-mart can sell at a loss for as long as it takes to get market share. Anyone know the numbers for them, how they're doing, all that? I looked, and scarily, they actually have some indie stuff and a decent selection, although not as good as itunes, and I'm still dissapointed in theirs.
But, for most people in this country, man... this could be bad news.