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Sony HDR-HC7 HDV Camcorder
- Thread starter Multimedia
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Any High End Single ClearVid CMOS Sensor Trumps All Three Chip SD Sensor Sets
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see the difference. Just go to any Circuit City or Best Buy and look at what these cameras are capable of recording and you'll see what I mean.
Yes Mike that's my position. No matter how "clean" an SD signal may be it's still only 720 x 480 on the TV. These Single CMOS 1440 x 1080 Rectangular Sensors (equal to the size of square 1920 x 1080 TV displays) are delivering a lot more lines to the TV no matter what any engineers or SD loyalists may say.
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see the difference. Just go to any Circuit City or Best Buy and look at what these cameras are capable of recording and you'll see what I mean.
The last couple of posts have gotten into the "if, then, but" area of camera comparison. To keep a long story short chip size and pixel size also play into image rendition as does the quality of glass in front of the sensor. The PD-170's larger pixels (roughly 1/4 few pixels in the about the same amount of space) means each pixel needs less light so you get better dynamic range and better low light shooting.
How much this effects overall image quality between these two cameras depends on what's being shot. But there are definitely professional level cameras (those with 2/3" CCDs) shooting thru professional level glass that'll deliver images much nicer than any sub $5k camera.
Multimedia, are you sure the HC-7 has a 1920*1080 sensor? I thought all the Sony's had 1440*1080 sensors (and SD digital video is 720*480, btw
).Lethal
The HC-7 is a very nice HDV camcorder. Most of my image comparison was image quality shooting in low-light, and comparing the PD-170 (king of low-light, $4000) against the HC-7 ($1400) was unfair.
Unfortunately, at low-light levels, all sub $2K HDV camcorders perform poorly since HDV is not a very forgiving format unless you go with large 3 chip sensors and quality glass. I have the Sony FX-1 and under low-light, the resolution is just a tad higher than SD footage. It's only when there is a lot of light does my HDV camcorder stand out from SD footage.
I'm wanting to pick up the Sony V1 which has 3 CMOS sensors and it shoots in 24 frames progressive.
EDIT: Speaking of HDV footage, here are some grabs I posted in the Picture of the Day thread.
The current SONY HDV camcorders are native 960x1080 pixels, I believe. Don't quote me on that. Only the Canon XH-1 has 1440x1080 sensors. The Panasonic P2 has 960x540, or such spec. The Sony HDV CMOS line might have 1440x1080, but I'm not sure...Multimedia, are you sure the HC-7 has a 1920*1080 sensor? I thought all the Sony's had 1440*1080 sensors (and SD digital video is 720*480, btw
camcorderinfo.com's HDR-HC7 First Impressions Review Indicates This Is The Best Today
Here's a piece of the hard to find camcorderinfo.com First Impression Review of the HC7 that indicates it's new 1/2.9" ClearVid™ CMOS sensor (3.2MP gross pixels) is the best single sensor offering from Sony to date:
I would love to have a V1U too. But right now it's more camera than I need. I'm shooting in candid and field situations where the V1U could be very intimidating while the HC7 seems little more than an innocuous toy most people will pay little attention to. That's the way I like my cameras to minimize the intimidation factor. A 3-chip TRV-900 size HDV camera has got to be on the way and when it arrives I will grab that puppy immediately.
I'm also wanting to learn how to use my 2GHz dual core G5 PM with 3 Intensity Cards in it to set up a three camera On-Air 3.0 production system promised for NAB by Blackmagic Design. So I may have to buy 2 more HC7's, not to mention 3 Intensity cards @ $249, just to complete that setup. That will be another $3k right there which is another reason for me to pass on the more expensive cameras right now as well. I'm trying to become among the world's On-Air 3.0 production experts this year.
Those pics of yours are great!
Thank you for setting me straight. I was hoping for the best not really knowing.
Here's a piece of the hard to find camcorderinfo.com First Impression Review of the HC7 that indicates it's new 1/2.9" ClearVid™ CMOS sensor (3.2MP gross pixels) is the best single sensor offering from Sony to date:
I've postponed getting into HDV until Sony offered a small top loader with external audio in and manual gain. I might have bought the HC1 except I am very much against supporting any bottom feeder camcorders. I have a visceral aversion to any bottom feeders. They are inherently ANTI-TriPod. And that really annoys me to no end. Now that my minimum expectations have been met, I feel obligated to pull the trigger even though I know it's not perfect.
I would love to have a V1U too. But right now it's more camera than I need. I'm shooting in candid and field situations where the V1U could be very intimidating while the HC7 seems little more than an innocuous toy most people will pay little attention to. That's the way I like my cameras to minimize the intimidation factor. A 3-chip TRV-900 size HDV camera has got to be on the way and when it arrives I will grab that puppy immediately.
I'm also wanting to learn how to use my 2GHz dual core G5 PM with 3 Intensity Cards in it to set up a three camera On-Air 3.0 production system promised for NAB by Blackmagic Design. So I may have to buy 2 more HC7's, not to mention 3 Intensity cards @ $249, just to complete that setup. That will be another $3k right there which is another reason for me to pass on the more expensive cameras right now as well. I'm trying to become among the world's On-Air 3.0 production experts this year.
I considered the HC7. I thought the HC1 looked great, but had a couple of things that killed it for me, such as the bottom loading tapes, that weird thing that made it harder to use 3rd party batteries, and that weird proprietary hot shoe that was incompatible with their other proprietary hot shoe accessories, making the mic I had just bought for my previous Sony worthless. Same with the whole new memory stick thing. The HC3 was a further downgrade, and the A1U not much of an upgrade for the price. This one looks ok, but still not the greatest IMO. Was hoping for a new Panasonic like the GS400, but they keep downgrading too.
Wound up buying a second hand GL2 from B&H Photo Video (with Mack warranty, cheap and worth it IMO), and I love it. Perfect for what I do with it, though not exactly what you'd call user friendly. Has a lot of manual controls though, and you can even use XLR mics with it with an adapter. I'm just going to buy a DM-50 mic to play with, not real happy with the built in mic (never am) and only get the XLR if it sucks too. Considering the HV20 hi-def as a backup to play with since I don't care about LANC and like almost everything else about it. The HV10 kinda sucked, but the HV20 has a mic input and a hot shoe (same as the GL2... hear that Sony, not a billion different proprietary "standards" that don't work with each other) that I can also use the same accessories with. Memory card's the same too. Even has a/v inputs, which is a huge plus IMO. Has 24p too, though I don't know how good it is.
So yeah, the HC7 looks nice and all, but it's not for me. Too many negatives, not enough positives. Too bad, I used to like Sony. Even still have a second gen Digital8 model that still works pretty well (bottom loading tapes though, grrr). Maybe I'll update to a more professional camcorder when I upgrade from a hobbyist, but for now it doesn't seem worth it. Are the new HDV consumer models really that much better than a 3CCD SD? Because so far I've been unimpressed.
Wound up buying a second hand GL2 from B&H Photo Video (with Mack warranty, cheap and worth it IMO), and I love it. Perfect for what I do with it, though not exactly what you'd call user friendly. Has a lot of manual controls though, and you can even use XLR mics with it with an adapter. I'm just going to buy a DM-50 mic to play with, not real happy with the built in mic (never am) and only get the XLR if it sucks too. Considering the HV20 hi-def as a backup to play with since I don't care about LANC and like almost everything else about it. The HV10 kinda sucked, but the HV20 has a mic input and a hot shoe (same as the GL2... hear that Sony, not a billion different proprietary "standards" that don't work with each other) that I can also use the same accessories with. Memory card's the same too. Even has a/v inputs, which is a huge plus IMO. Has 24p too, though I don't know how good it is.
So yeah, the HC7 looks nice and all, but it's not for me. Too many negatives, not enough positives. Too bad, I used to like Sony. Even still have a second gen Digital8 model that still works pretty well (bottom loading tapes though, grrr). Maybe I'll update to a more professional camcorder when I upgrade from a hobbyist, but for now it doesn't seem worth it. Are the new HDV consumer models really that much better than a 3CCD SD? Because so far I've been unimpressed.
I Don't See The Negatives You Do Solvs
I can't even rationalize paying to repair my TRV-900 nor my VX-1000 vs. buying a new Sony HC7 HDV camera. I think they are really that much better than any 3CCD SD camera for sure. I think you're postponing the inevitable to have bought that Canon GL2. But I know what you mean about offerings to date. I felt the same as you until this HC7 came along. I see the HC7 as the turning point in high end consumer HDV camcorders for the better. I guess only time will tell.
Only slightly off topic, isn't it realistic to think some company like Firestore or some flash/RAID application like P2 is looking at these cameras with sensors capturing full HD (and then compressing to tape as HDV) and seeing a tremendous opportunity.
I'd love to see something like a Firestore 100 or Panasonic P2Store that takes the HD single (pre-HDV compression) and records it as, say, DVCProHD.
Anybody heard rumblings of this type of field acquisition possibility, or am I dreaming?
By the way Multimedia, I responded "just curious" to your survey, but since I'm shooting now almost exclusively with the Panasonic HVX200 there wasn't really a better choice listed. Once the cameras hit the field more extensively I think this avenue of small HDV camera (Sony, Canon or otherwise) might make a tremendous second camera on many shoots. The size and cost means you can put it in places and situations you might not approach with something 3-4 times the size and 4 times the cost.
Hey, so I guess "just curious" is a better choice than I realized.
Thanks for the thread with all of the great info about what these little gems can and cannot accomplish.
I would love for someone to come out with a HDMI storage device that records DVCPRO HD, but unfortunately, I think Panasonic owns the codec. Am I wrong about this? I don't think they'd license it for this purpose as it would only encourage people to buy other cams. Obviously uncompressed is out of the question for such a storage device. Wouldn't it be great if the next MBP had a HDMI port. Any thoughts? I love the idea of recording out of HDMI from an HDV cam, but I don't think lugging around a Mac Pro is the solution.
Sony's XDCAM HD format looks promising. The format is based off MPEG2 but records at 35Mbits instead of HDV's 25Mbits, and is more efficient than DVCPRO HD ever can be. XDCAM is recorded onto Blu-Ray which makes random access easy and efficient to transfer to computer.
Panasonic DVCPRO HD Is The Codec We'll Use With Intensity Card From HDMI Port
I guess I should have labeled that line just plain HD.
I see your model - Panasonic AG-HVX200 3-CCD P2/DVCPRO HD - available for as low as $2464 on the web. Got me thinking about my choice of the little guy for only a little less than half that price. But it's still all about the overall size of the camera for me. Props to you for that idea. I sure hope you're wrong about Panasonic not willing to license the DVCPRO HD codec to HD makers for this purpose. It's included with FCP so from HDMI into the Intensity card capturing with FCP we can use DVCPRO HD no problem.
Thank you. I guess you might have put you already own another HDV camera even though it's really DVCPRO HD. I mean isn't that close enough for coffee?
I guess I should have labeled that line just plain HD.I see your model - Panasonic AG-HVX200 3-CCD P2/DVCPRO HD - available for as low as $2464 on the web. Got me thinking about my choice of the little guy for only a little less than half that price. But it's still all about the overall size of the camera for me.
I agree with you that recording from the HDMI port to a portable HD using the DCVPRO HD Codec would be dope. I hope some of the develpers of those drives are thinking that way. Let's lobby them for it at NAB.
Props to you for that idea. I sure hope you're wrong about Panasonic not willing to license the DVCPRO HD codec to HD makers for this purpose. It's included with FCP so from HDMI into the Intensity card capturing with FCP we can use DVCPRO HD no problem.Why would it need to record to DVCPRO HD? If we are going to edit the video in Final Cut then it would be best to use "Apple Intermediate Codec". So why not just record the HDMI signal straight to Quick Time? Then you "import" the data by plugging the storage device into your Firewire bus and it appears as a disk on the desktop ready to edit. (Apple's format uses about 46GB per hour for 1080i/60)
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=301599
So Lobbying Sony For a XDCAM HD codec HDMI In HDD Would Keep It All In The Family
Better yet would be a small form Sony 3 chip (1/4" or 1/5") XDCAM HD camera that records directly to dual layer Blu-ray miniDVDs right? Probably be able to get an hour on a dual layer Blu-ray miniDVD - my fantasy.
Phooey74, I think the likelyhood of HDMI i/o (I pray for both ports) on the next Mac Pro is very much in the realm of possability. I've already imagined it could happen as soon as I saw the Intensity Card.
Perfect. Since it's a Sony codec, lobbying Sony to develop a HDMI in portable HDD would be a lot more doable. Thanks for that tip. Seems like there may be hope for the professional use of these HDMI outputs on the consumer size cameras eventually. That's encouraging.
So the Sony XDCAM HD codec would be less than 20GB an hour so you're right ChrisA. I'm still learning how to use what codec when where. So is the Apple Intermediate Codec a "universal" type format that lets us choose which way to export the edit? 'Cause if that's what it is, then that would seem to be the codec ideal for the portalbe HDD as well and we could ultimately master and archive on our Blu-ray DVDRs in our new 8 core Mac Pros with the efficient but more robust (than DVCPRO HD) Sony XDCAM HD format SpicyApple likes right?
Better yet would be a small form Sony 3 chip (1/4" or 1/5") XDCAM HD camera that records directly to dual layer Blu-ray miniDVDs right? Probably be able to get an hour on a dual layer Blu-ray miniDVD - my fantasy.
Phooey74, I think the likelyhood of HDMI i/o (I pray for both ports) on the next Mac Pro is very much in the realm of possability. I've already imagined it could happen as soon as I saw the Intensity Card.
I just looked for up that store on http://www.resellerratings.com. Most people who bought from them found themselves scammed. It's hard to find that camera for less then 5k at a reputable dealer.
I might be picking up one of those HC7's! Thx for the review.
NOTE TO APPLE:
HDMI ports in the next Mac Book Pro. Also, release a hard drive recording device that has HDMI in and converts to AIC.
What kind of hardware would this require?
XDCAM HD is a nice step up, but isn't it still Long GOP?
AIC is good for editing because it does not use any "intra-frame" compression. DV is good for the same reason. Each frame stands alone and is not computed from deltas from a key frame.
I don't think a general purpose computer could process HDMI. Certainly no disk is fast enough to record HDMI. You would need to make a special purpose chip much like the chips that are inside all video cameras. It's what the camera makers refer to in their ads as the "image processing engine".
HDMI at full resolution sends 165 megapixels per second and each pixel is 24 bits. Intel Xeon CPUs don't process data at that rate, you'd need specialized hardware.
HDMI In Lets Us Save Data As AIC In Mac Pro, G5 or Future MacBook Pro or Portable HDD
Yes but my understanding is the way the Intensity card works in a Mac Pro, Dual Core G5 PM and might in a future MBP and portable HDD is to use the robust but efficient AIC codec to toss out most of that data as it saves in AIC. Am I mistaken about that possability ChrisA?
In regards to HDV and AIC:
The current hurdle w/a portable solution is converting the HDMI output into another format is pretty CPU intensive. The smallest converters I've seen were still pretty big and you'd still need storage. AIC, in same cases, can be a good alternative to editing natively in HDV, but it's limited to 4:2:0 color space where DVCPro HD is 4:2:2. If I had the option of transcoding on the fly to AIC or DVCPro HD I'd pick Panasonic's codec every time. DVCPro HD is about as good as you're gonna get w/o needing to upgrad to a nice sized RAID that can handle higher quality codecs.
In regards to XDCAM HD:
I worked on a show using XDCAM HD last summer and it looked very good and the discs were much nicer than tape to work with in post. Multimedia, I doubt very much we'll see XDCAM in consumer models. Sony is heavily invested in HDV and when they do move to a tapeless consumer format it will be AVCHD.
Lethal
The current hurdle w/a portable solution is converting the HDMI output into another format is pretty CPU intensive. The smallest converters I've seen were still pretty big and you'd still need storage. AIC, in same cases, can be a good alternative to editing natively in HDV, but it's limited to 4:2:0 color space where DVCPro HD is 4:2:2. If I had the option of transcoding on the fly to AIC or DVCPro HD I'd pick Panasonic's codec every time. DVCPro HD is about as good as you're gonna get w/o needing to upgrad to a nice sized RAID that can handle higher quality codecs.
In regards to XDCAM HD:
I worked on a show using XDCAM HD last summer and it looked very good and the discs were much nicer than tape to work with in post. Multimedia, I doubt very much we'll see XDCAM in consumer models. Sony is heavily invested in HDV and when they do move to a tapeless consumer format it will be AVCHD.
Lethal
I Meant Consumer Camcorder SIZE From The Industrial Not Consumer Division
So for the time being it's the DVCPro HD codec for us to use. Thanks for that help.
They already offer consumer AVCHD camcorders but at much higher compression (lower quality) than HDV. I meant a small consumer camcorder SIZE 3-chip miniBlu-ray XDCAM HD camera from Industrial or even the Pro division. I understand it will not happen in the consumer division.
So for the time being it's the DVCPro HD codec for us to use. Thanks for that help.
I know this might be a stupid question but what difference for my parents between a HC5 and HC7? All I want is them to be able to record video and play it back on their Sony 1080i TV just like they did with their old video camera.
Links to HC5 & HC7 Details On Sony Site
HC5 sensor is 2.1 Megapixels
HC7 sensor is 3.2 Megapixels
HC5 Stills 1490k (16:9) 1990k (4:3) Pixels
HC7 Stills 2280k (16:9) 3040k (4:3) Pixels
HC5 Electronic Image Stabalization w/80x digital zoom
HC7 Optical Image Stabalization w/20x digital zoom
HC7 has manual audio gain with external mic in jack and headphone jack.
HC5 has auto audio gain with no mic in nor headphone jack.
This is the reason I would never consider the HC5 as even a possibility.
HDR-HC7 is the first Sony consumer HDV camcorder to have both manual audio gain AND be a top feeder. The 2005 HC1 has manual audio gain but it's a freaking bottom feeder. I HATE bottom feeders. The 2006 HC3 is a top feeder without manual audio gain. Only took Sony two years to put both those features into one model.
Both have HDMI Output for hooking the camcorder directly to their set as long as it has a spare HDMI input. Alternatively they both output component video as well.
On paper the HC7 should look much sharper and contain more detail than the HC5. ProVantage® pricing puts them only $170 apart so I think its worth the extra few bucks to get top quality don't you?
If you use FireFox for a browser it's possible to use this link to isolate the two models on the Sony site for side by side feature by feature comparison. Can't get this comparison url to work in Safari.
But I've pretty much done all the work for you above.
The sensor on the HC7 - link to details is 52% larger than the sensor on the HC5 - link to details.
HC5 sensor is 2.1 Megapixels
HC7 sensor is 3.2 Megapixels
HC5 Stills 1490k (16:9) 1990k (4:3) Pixels
HC7 Stills 2280k (16:9) 3040k (4:3) Pixels
HC5 Electronic Image Stabalization w/80x digital zoom
HC7 Optical Image Stabalization w/20x digital zoom
HC7 has manual audio gain with external mic in jack and headphone jack.
HC5 has auto audio gain with no mic in nor headphone jack.
This is the reason I would never consider the HC5 as even a possibility.
HDR-HC7 is the first Sony consumer HDV camcorder to have both manual audio gain AND be a top feeder. The 2005 HC1 has manual audio gain but it's a freaking bottom feeder. I HATE bottom feeders. The 2006 HC3 is a top feeder without manual audio gain. Only took Sony two years to put both those features into one model.
Both have HDMI Output for hooking the camcorder directly to their set as long as it has a spare HDMI input. Alternatively they both output component video as well.
On paper the HC7 should look much sharper and contain more detail than the HC5. ProVantage® pricing puts them only $170 apart so I think its worth the extra few bucks to get top quality don't you?
If you use FireFox for a browser it's possible to use this link to isolate the two models on the Sony site for side by side feature by feature comparison. Can't get this comparison url to work in Safari.
But I've pretty much done all the work for you above.
HDR-HC7 is the first Sony consumer HDV camcorder to have both manual audio gain AND be a top feeder. The 2005 HC1 has manual audio gain but it's a freaking bottom feeder. I HATE bottom feeders. The 2006 HC3 is a top feeder without manual audio gain. Only took Sony two years to put both those features into one model.
Which is why I didn't buy the HC1, nor the HC3. Audio is important, and bottom loading is just stupid. Took them forever, so I found a camera that better supported what I wanted. There are a couple of issues I have with the Canon too though. I wasn't aware the HC7 had an audio in other than that stupid new accessory shoe that there was only like 1 or 2 mics for. Like the one on the HC3. As I said, audio is important to me, so if I could use the mic I have, that might be a point for the Sony. If not, the Canon still wins me over since, like I said, I don't care about LANC (though they should have added that to the HV20) but I'm getting a couple of Canon mics for my GL2 and really don't want to have to deal with a third mic for a backup when I'm just playing with HD. Not to mention, if the 24p is that good (GL2 does 29~p), I might consider selling the GL2, whereas the Sony doesn't have it.
Again, none of this is an issue for most of you, so the Sony might be the best, but for me, not so much.
You Can Put Any Mic In A HC7 Alternate Cold Shoe Also Available
I may even also buy a HV20 to use as a playback deck. I'm not keen about playing what I record on the HC7 a lot. I don't want to wear it out playing stuff all the time. And the HV20 is $300 lower list than the Sony. At $1100 list with real 24p capability, I think I'd like to have it in my arsonal as well. Should be street for about only $900.
Yes you can put any mic in the HC7 and control volume manually. A third party also makes a cold shoe for the Sony proprietary shoe on top of the HC7. I use a custom built cable that has female XLR on one end and stereo 1/8" pin on the other. If I'm using line level input, I just put a pad in the line. I also use a UHF wireless rig that costs hundreds. I also have an external XLR box with 1/8" input that I can attach to the bottom of the HC7 for stereo XLR IN. Only cost about $200 for that option. My main thing is I like really small cameras.
If the missing LANC is not an issue for you, I agree the HC20 may be a great choice. When I look at the sensor specs between the two it's hard to tell which one is really better.
I may even also buy a HV20 to use as a playback deck. I'm not keen about playing what I record on the HC7 a lot. I don't want to wear it out playing stuff all the time. And the HV20 is $300 lower list than the Sony. At $1100 list with real 24p capability, I think I'd like to have it in my arsonal as well. Should be street for about only $900.Yes you can put any mic in the HC7 and control volume manually. A third party also makes a cold shoe for the Sony proprietary shoe on top of the HC7.
I use a custom built cable that has female XLR on one end and stereo 1/8" pin on the other. If I'm using line level input, I just put a pad in the line. I also use a UHF wireless rig that costs hundreds. I also have an external XLR box with 1/8" input that I can attach to the bottom of the HC7 for stereo XLR IN. Only cost about $200 for that option. My main thing is I like really small cameras.
HDR-HC7 Manual & Model Specific Website + Sony HDV Info HC7 Forum
For your own research or prep to getting this camera here is a link to a PDF of the 115 page Sony HDR-HC5/HC7 Operating Guide.
And here's the link to the home page of the new HDR-HC7 Community website.
Plus here's the link to a whole bunch of HC7 threads at the Sony HDV Info website's HC7 Forum
Also Download the Spec Comparison Chart Among Top Sony FX1 - FX7 - HC5 - HC7 HDV Camcorders here.
For your own research or prep to getting this camera here is a link to a PDF of the 115 page Sony HDR-HC5/HC7 Operating Guide.
And here's the link to the home page of the new HDR-HC7 Community website.
Plus here's the link to a whole bunch of HC7 threads at the Sony HDV Info website's HC7 Forum
Also Download the Spec Comparison Chart Among Top Sony FX1 - FX7 - HC5 - HC7 HDV Camcorders here.