So you think it's okay to throw dirt at a fine piece of precision electronics? Strange values. But anyway: @smirker tried ruining his keyboard doing exactly that and it kept on working.
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Source of butterfly KB issues?
- Thread starter CallMyBookie
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Eating at your laptop is the same as throwing dirt at it? Okay. Way to overblow it. Although I have to give it to you that dropping donut powder isn't the smartest idea.
I meant it's insane that it breaks so easily while just doing regular things while using a consumer product. You're supposed to wash your hands every time you use it? And again the question remains, why wasn't this a problem in the previous iterations?
It has some issues, but it doesn't break that easily. People have gone off the deep end about claiming that all it takes is a few specks of dust to destroy it. There wouldn't be a single copy of that keyboard that would even work more than a day if it were THAT terrified of dust.
I had a 2016 MBP whose keyboard that I completely abused as an experiment. It held up. Apple has said that the silicon barrier was done for acoustic reasons and not to protect against dust. I think they're actually telling the truth.
See the photo below. That's a first gen MBP butterfly from my 2016 MBP. The switch is in the center. It does not need a silicone barrier. It already has a barrier. It's also nothing more than a low profile rubber dome membrane switch. A little bit of dust is not going to jam this and if you take a closer look at that photo, it is an embarrassingly unsanitary portrait of a keyboard that is not being pampered in any way.
The butterfly mechanism is not actually part of the switch in the sense that they cause actuation. They're just there to create tactility and to stabilize the keypress so that the membrane dome switch gets actuated no matter if you hit the very corner of the key or right smack in the center. Some dust probably could make the stabilizers move less smoothly, but you'd need a pretty good layer.
I think in the most of the cases when the key "jams" it's because something is affecting the alignment between the keycap and the butterfly stabilizers so that the keycap no longer depresses the membrane switch cleanly.
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They're not really telling the thruth as seen here: https://www.macrumors.com/2018/07/19/apple-confirms-2018-mbp-keyboard-prevents-debris/
However much debris is needed, it's obvious the design is flawed. Thanks for your insights though, interesting to read for sure...
Thanks for surfacing that post about Apple admitting it was done about debris. I didn't know that came out. I can see how larger bits of debris could jam the mechanism, but not just a little dust.
Ifixit seems to show that a piece of dust can break the keyboard.
And many people treated their MBPs with kid gloves and their keyboards failed. Its great that your's didn't fail, but sadly too many others have and continue to fail. That's why apple was forced to institute a repair program, and apologized to 2018 MBP owners over the failing keyboards.
Actually Apple admits that the membrane is for dust.
Apple Confirms 2018 MacBook Pro Keyboard Has 'Membrane' to 'Prevent Debris From Entering the Butterfly Mechanism'
That's more than just dust in the video. I got to check out the mechanism directly. You either need something more solid than dust or billows of dust bunnies. It would also need to be in the right spot. The compressed air cleaning instruction isn't to blow dust out of the keyboard. It's to dislodge any chunks of debris that might be stuck to the underside of the butterfly mechanism. Dust isn't going to affect the butterfly mechanism and the switch itself is a regular sealed low profile rubber dome.
Yeah, but that article cites that it's for debris, not dust.
I already thanked mdnz for correcting me on that Apple revealed that the barrier wasn't really for acoustic purposes.
No matter how you slice it, the keyboard fails way too often. Rene Ritchie of iMore who bends over backwards to justify and excuse apple of any wrong doing admits his laptops succumbed to the failure.
Its not the users fault, its apple's and its just splitting hairs to say debris and not dust. Call it what you want, but the fact remains that the 2016 and 2017 model years are failing to a degree that apple had to institute a repair program and I said, thy apologized for the 2018. I fully expect the 2018 model year to be included in that repair program in the near future as well.
It’s not splitting hairs. It’s getting the facts right. It needs to be a pretty solid something to jam the mechanism.
You seem to think I’m saying there is no problem. I am not. I’m saying, “be real people.” You don’t need to exaggerate. It doesn’t help that lots of the most opinionated people keep repeating that a few specks of dust is all it takes. Be real.
There's clearly a problem, but it seems so inconsistent and the dust-ingress can surely only be a part of it? Or maybe as has been rumoured, there's multiple issues at work here with the materials of the keyboard also prone to failure? I recently had a 2018 MBA exhibit keyboard issues - it was only a few months old and had really had a sheltered life - only being used as s second machine, only ever in an office and I never ate around it.
Previously we'd had a few machines from 2016-2018, which were used inside offices, but also outdoors in support of our races in all weathers sitting outside or on tables in tents which were open to the elements - near woods, fires going, dusty and stony environments with lots of people wandering through and kicking up debris (not to mention our team eating on the same tables) - not a single keyboard problem.
Previously we'd had a few machines from 2016-2018, which were used inside offices, but also outdoors in support of our races in all weathers sitting outside or on tables in tents which were open to the elements - near woods, fires going, dusty and stony environments with lots of people wandering through and kicking up debris (not to mention our team eating on the same tables) - not a single keyboard problem.
I disagree, I think the ifixit videos have shown some very minor small pieces of debris impacting the keyboard functionality.
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That's because that's what is happening
there is likely multiple failure modes of the butterFly keyboard
and
none of these is dust contamination, just could be.
what gets me is why Apple has dug their high heels into the dirt with this design. Refuse to update with a reliable design
and
none of these is dust contamination, just could be.
what gets me is why Apple has dug their high heels into the dirt with this design. Refuse to update with a reliable design
Yeah, I know that, but re-read what they wrote and notice that the intro differs from what they actually said when they went to go prove their case. In their opening, they say a mere speck of dust is all it takes. When they show how it works, they inject a grain of sand.
I think they were embellishing their intro for dramatic effect and everyone ran with it without seriously thinking about the mechanism of failure that was being described. It's a mechanical issue caused by infinitessimally low spaces for clearance and made worse by there being very poor prospects for disassembly of the keycap to get at the blockage.
And lest there be any doubt, none of what I'm saying is blaming the user and exonerating Apple. I just want the conversation to be real.
Yup. And my 2008 still hasn’t failed. The problem is the new keyboard and not the eating.
hope it always goes well with the older model keyboard. yes. they were / are still great keyboards.
and also hope the jelly from the donut doesnt fall onto it...
my keyboard seems to like coffee.
but not so much soy sauce.
I'm not sure that it's always dust or why the double press issue happens which makes me wonder if there are multiple points of failure. For the record on my 15", once the D key started to go the F, A, and E then followed within a few weeks. However, after jamming on those, only the D key remains a problem and it still seems somewhat intermittent.
In a sense does it really matter? We can debate dust vs. debris till the cows come home, yet the one constant is that these keyboards are continuing to fail. The fix, is not a fix because apple is replacing the keyboard with the same flawed design. If it failed once, replacing it with the same design means, the odds of failure again is high.
I don't know what Apple will do in 2019, but the butterfly keyboard has a horrible reputation.
I suppose not but, knowing what causes it (whether it's a flaw from the factory, or dust, or what have you) could inform us whether it could be mitigated or needs a redesign - of course I think we all agree that it probably does. Considering Apple has yet to provide a meaningful fix, I'm guessing it can't really be solved on their end either.
I'm just hoping they find a way to shove that low-profile Magic Keyboard in. That thing feels fantastic and as far as I know doesn't come with any baggage.
A Fishrrman fearless prediction:
The current-style butterfly keyboards will NEVER work reliably.
The only solutions will be:
1. Design and incorporate a NEW keyboard design into the MBPros
or
2. "Go back" to a modified/updated version of the previous (2015) design.
The current-style butterfly keyboards will NEVER work reliably.
The only solutions will be:
1. Design and incorporate a NEW keyboard design into the MBPros
or
2. "Go back" to a modified/updated version of the previous (2015) design.
Agreed. My wife and I have used our 2017 MBPs for almost a year now (11 months). My wife uses her keyboard every day for her PhD and does everything a normal user does at their keyboard (eats, etc...). She types 10+ page papers on it regularly.
My keyboard I'm a bit easier with, I use it with an external monitor and external keyboard just because I prefer a monitor to the laptop screen, but I've had 0 problems with my keyboard and I've used it a lot (nowhere near as much as my wife). I use cans of air on it, like I have with every laptop I've ever owned, and I try not to eat near it. (I blow out my keyboard once or twice a month now).
At my wife's school there are many student/professors with similar laptops with no problems.
If it was dust that did these keyboards in my wife's laptop keyboard would be destroyed already. I think it is more like a crumb or something larger like dirt, sand, etc...
Not saying keyboards don't have problems. We have the TB models so it keeps the laptop a bit more cool with an extra fan - those keyboards can get warm under CPU load.
But to say that they ALL have problems is insane. I type 160+wpm for hours and can destroy normal keyboards in weeks if I go full bore. This keyboard (my 2017 MBP) is turning out to be a real champ and I am really liking it. Once you get used to pressing the keys with less energy than a normal keyboard, you can really fly on these things. Takes awhile to get used to (month+ for me).
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I've noticed that the keyboard has a break in period of about 2-3 months. It gets louder with age. The way it feels now is actually really nice, especially now that I'm used to it.
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The bigger picture is that laptop users haven't magically changed in the last decade--they're the same bunch they've always been. Some eat as they're typing, some don't. Some aren't meticulous cleaners, some are.
What's changed is the butterfly keyboard. The same bunch of laptop user slobs had no problem with previous keyboards.
That's pretty conclusive, wouldn't you say?
And the confirmation comes directly from Apple: the keyboard has an extended warranty all of its own. Did Apple's previous keyboard merit an extended warranty? No.
Putting in a prophylactic barrier is called "gilding a badly flawed lily."
What's changed is the butterfly keyboard. The same bunch of laptop user slobs had no problem with previous keyboards.
That's pretty conclusive, wouldn't you say?
And the confirmation comes directly from Apple: the keyboard has an extended warranty all of its own. Did Apple's previous keyboard merit an extended warranty? No.
Putting in a prophylactic barrier is called "gilding a badly flawed lily."
even w/o the 2017 keyboard failures the new keyboards have not been functional for many years to date
compounding the issue:
apple took a year+ to offer warranty repairs and only after a court case and the dismal prospect of the 2018 MBP sales going to zero
their spell check app is in need of an updating
while entering text it tends to change w/o your permission
siri has never been a big option
compounding the issue:
apple took a year+ to offer warranty repairs and only after a court case and the dismal prospect of the 2018 MBP sales going to zero
their spell check app is in need of an updating
while entering text it tends to change w/o your permission
siri has never been a big option