Spain Launches Investigation Into Apple's App Store

[AppliedMicro]

So, by that same argument, McDonalds has 100% marketshare inside of McDonalds.

McDonald's can be allowed to have 100% marketshare inside of McDonald's - cause they aren't a monopoly or duopoly for burger restaurants, and there are no similar entry barriers to selling burgers. Similarly, they do not present a monopsony to companies that are selling burger meat, buns or chicken nuggets.

Whereas there is a lack of competing smartphone operating systems - and they have a gatekeeping role towards other business users (developers).

👉 They are not the same and do not have or are subject to the same market conditions and monopoly power.

That's why it's reasonable to regulate one (smartphone OS/stores) and not the other (fast food restaurants).
I'm not changing my argument at all on this.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

Either way, that's Apples choice to do that. They aren't being told, or forced, they are just being pouty babies. 👶

Business adjust to or make decisions related to the regulatory environment of a market as a natural course of business. There's no "pouty babies" about it.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Nothing. It won’t be integrated into the core of the operating system.

So?

Someone else may integrate it into Android.
And consumers may decide if they like or need it.

No lack there either. Just ban google from selling android and viola.

As a matter of fact, Android isn't sold and Google isn't prohibited from selling its Services.
Why should the government do that?

iPhones prices in Europe go up to account for it.

How so?
iPhones can be imported.

at least a dozen variations of operating systems

They're otherwise all the same and run the same (Android) apps and are just slight variations. And you know it.

If your concern is that Google has 80% of the market, according to the way you're defining it, then it makes zero sense to try to punish Apple who is the only viable competition to Google

The regulation ensures that Apple - and its app ecosystem remain a viable alternative for the benefit of developers and consumers alike.

 

[CarAnalogy]

It’s both sad and hilarious.

They couldn’t get iMessage so they had to find something trivial.


Who’s we? I’m fine and have no complaints with iOS App Store.

Just because there are people who want to make iOS perform like android (instead of getting android) and how it works doesn’t mean you speak for all
Of us.



There said it for you.

I wish ppl would stop trying to tell people what is better for consumers. Again i(like hundreds of millions of others) were fine.

It is not better for me and many others to have to go to multiple app stores to download an app because the developer wants to make money (same as apple) by not paying the app store. There is no benefit to having multiple App Store options vs a consolidated App Store.

It’s not just about consumers though. Consumers are the plankton in the mobile economy.

Maybe Apple should take a step back and think about why so many countries have so many problems with their App Store policies.

This isn’t about just punishing success. It is very clear that Apple uses App Store review as a weapon against other companies and industries.

“Just get Android” is not an answer. In case people haven’t noticed, Google is in trouble for many of the same things.

Americans have a real problem with the false dichotomy logical fallacy. We’ve been conditioned to just accept whichever we think of as the less bad choice, because of course there can only be two bad choices. We can’t actually make things better, just settle for the steady ratcheting down of quality and freedom that comes with every cycle of choosing the less bad choice.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

McDonald's can be allowed to have 100% marketshare inside of McDonald's - cause they aren't a monopoly or duopoly

Can you point me to where, in the text of the DMA or the law that Spain purports to be using where the terms "monopoly" or "duopoly" are mentioned? Because in my reading of the DMA and searching, I've yet to find those terms used. This seems foundational to your argument, but I can't find this is foundational to the DMA. Please provide a reference.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

Maybe Apple should take a step back and think about why so many countries have so many problems with their App Store policies.

Or maybe these countries should wonder why Apple's customers are consistently happy with Apple products.

The idea that governments are pure actors and that Apple is an evil corporation is a manufactured talking point that has little basis in reality.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

Americans have a real problem with the false dichotomy logical fallacy. We’ve been conditioned to just accept whichever we think of as the less bad choice, because of course there can only be two bad choices. We can’t actually make things better, just settle for the steady ratcheting down of quality and freedom that comes with every cycle of choosing the less bad choice.

You're speaking for "Americans" now? Can you point me to any evidence that this holds?

 

[I7guy]

So?

Someone else may integrate it into Android.
And consumers may decide if they like or need it.

So you admit there is more than one or two operating systems.

As a matter of fact, Android isn't sold

It’s licensed if you want to get technical.

and Google isn't prohibited from selling its Services.

Maybe they should be prohibited from licensing android. Sure would breed real competition. Not fake competition as what the dma did.

Why should the government do that?

I just gave rationale.

How so?
iPhones can be imported.

But they are unsupported of illegally imported.

They're otherwise all the same and run the same (Android) apps and are just slight variations. And you know it.

The regulation ensures that Apple - and its app ecosystem remain a viable alternative for the benefit of developers and consumers alike.

Government regulations breaking apart companies to foster “competition “ don’t succeed all that well. Witness the sorry state of the US telco industry.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Can you point me to where, in the text of the DMA or the law that Spain purports to be using where the terms "monopoly" or "duopoly" are mentioned? Because in my reading of the DMA and searching, I've yet to find those terms used. This seems foundational to your argument, but I can't find this is foundational to the DMA. Please provide a reference.

The Spanish CNMC hasn't detailed that yet and I'm not familiar with Spanish competition law, nor do I speak enough Spanish to read it.

That said the article refers to...

Apple's practices could constitute an abuse of a dominant position, which is prohibited under Spanish competition laws and the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU).

...and I suggest you consult that treaty text yourself, particularly starting at §102.

If you like to be precise, the term "dominant position" is used. Monopolies or duopolies are forms of companies having dominant positions.

 

[macfacts]

You lose when prices go up, you lose with Apple stops giving you features, you lose if Apple stops selling phones with iOS on in the EU, etc. And seeing how we are in uncharted territory and I still find it interesting that all the other closed platform don't have to open up, just Apple.

Interesting strawman argument cause there doesn't exist any other closed platform like iOS. There's already Amazon app store and Samsung Galaxy app store on android.

 

[AppliedMicro]

So you admit there is more than one or two operating systems.

Two systems of relevance - with one of them being available in certain variations or modifications.

It’s licensed if you want to get technical.

...for free, yes. As I said: It's not sold, neither are the licenses.
Google's supporting services are though.

Maybe they should be prohibited from licensing android

Why?
That doesn't benefit customers at all.

But they are unsupported of illegally imported.

What are you talking about? 🤷‍♀️

👉 The import of smartphones is not illegal.

Government regulations breaking apart companies to foster “competition “ don’t succeed all that well. Witness the sorry state of the US telco industry.

They did succeed quite well in the EU - and even more so the obligations imposed on operators to open up their networks and keep them compatible. Just witness the state of the EU telco industry.

 

[CarAnalogy]

You're speaking for "Americans" now? Can you point me to any evidence that this holds?

Uh…the current US election? Every election in my lifetime?

And with regard to the other post, it is both possible for consumers to be happy and also for Apple to be abusing its position. There’s that false dichotomy again.

It is the job of governments to force organizations with immense market power to not abuse it. Who else can?

Speaking only for myself, I am generally happy with Apple’s products. I also don’t want to see them abuse their position as the sole distributor of software on their mobile platform. Both things can be true, and are.

 

[SBlue1]

I wish ppl would stop trying to tell people what is better for consumers. Again i(like hundreds of millions of others) were fine.

Government regulations are great and they protect the consumers. The American "free" market is not free but shaped by lobbyist and rich businesses. Just take a look at the long list of American food brands that are banned in the rest of the world. And the funny thing is most of the brands change the recipes for the EU market so it is possible to have safe food but that would reduce the profit margins. I am happy the EU is protecting us from dangerous American food.

 

[Dremmel]

If Apple payed fair they would have had a great Vision Pro launch. As it is, Devs have been stung way too many times to even bother with it. The App Store is rigged thanks to Search Ads and keyword purchasing. I doubt Spain can actually do anything about it.

 

[macfacts]

But that's not your argument. Apparently, according to you, Apple has a 100% marketshare of app stores inside of IOS. So, by that same argument, McDonalds has 100% marketshare inside of McDonalds. You keep changing your argument.

But Mc Donald's doesn't have any lock in. I can buy fries at McDonald's and gravy from KFC.

 

[iPadified]

The US government should consider investigating some European companies for "anti-competitive practices".

They do. For instance the high prices of medicine from NovoNordisk.

 

[spazzcat]

Interesting strawman argument cause there doesn't exist any other closed platform like iOS. There's already Amazon app store and Samsung Galaxy app store on android.

Playstation, xbox, Nentendo all have only their store. If open platforms are so good then the EU should have ending all closed platforms.

 

[macfacts]

Or maybe these countries should wonder why Apple's customers are consistently happy with Apple products.

The idea that governments are pure actors and that Apple is an evil corporation is a manufactured talking point that has little basis in reality.

The kids working in sweat shops are consistently happy working for pennies.

 

[spazzcat]

The kids working in sweat shops are consistently happy working for pennies.

I'm pretty sure they are not happy, but have to survive somehow.

 

[ThailandToo]

I think there's a valid debate to be had over whether free markets really exist in a duopoly. The smartphone market is dominated by Apple and Google and it would be incredibly different for a third party to cook up a new operating system to compete without the associated app market and ecosystem (see: Tizen, Windows Phone). Apple and Google compete with each other, but there is no outside competition to shake up the scene. That reduces the incentive to compete because the two players can rest on their laurels knowing users are locked into their respective ecosystems and can't easily move.

That doesn’t mean it’s not a free market in Europe!??? Just means no other company is willing to compete with the OS as developers won’t necessarily develop. Until you look at China.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

If you like to be precise, the term "dominant position" is used. Monopolies or duopolies are forms of companies having dominant positions.

"Dominant position" is a manufactured term that was needed since "monopoly" or "duopoly" don't fit the goals of the DMA.

Again, you keep using the terms "monopoly/duopoly" but none of the laws reference those ideas at all.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

Uh…the current US election? Every election in my lifetime?

Wait. What? What does the US election have to do with Apple and its products? That was an odd shift of discussion.

 

[WarmWinterHat]

"Dominant position" is a manufactured term that was needed since "monopoly" or "duopoly" don't fit the goals of the DMA.

Again, you keep using the terms "monopoly/duopoly" but none of the laws reference those ideas at all.

All legal terms are manufactured. Every single one.

That's the point of the government (or one of), you pass laws based on the current state of things. If the previous laws don't ft then create new laws and new terminology to make it happen.

Then phrase Antitrust was invented to breakup Ma Bell.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

All legal terms are manufactured. Every single one.

That's the point of the government (or one of), You pass laws based on the current state, if the previous laws don't fit. If the previous terminology doesn't fit, then create new terminology.

Fine. So let's all stop talking about Monopoly's or Duopolys, since those terms don't apply to the laws we're discussing.

 

[I7guy]

Two systems of relevance - with one of them being available in certain variations or modifications.

Those are two o/s with different capabilities.

...for free, yes. As I said: It's not sold, neither are the licenses.

Citation. Because I’ve read google makes 18b on android licenses.

Google's supporting services are though.

Why?
That doesn't benefit customers at all.

Yes it does. It would eliminate your contention of a duopoly.

What are you talking about? 🤷‍♀️

👉 The import of smartphones is not illegal.

If you buy a smartphone in the US it is not serviced in another location. As far as I know. Can you show it is?

They did succeed quite well in the EU - and even more so the obligations imposed on operators to open up their networks and keep them compatible. Just witness the state of the EU telco industry.

So again this taking someone’s ip and distributing it like sand in the wind. Didn’t work well in the US and I expect the dma will be similar.