Speaker set up - sanity check please!

[Ben J.]

$250 on a DAC gives you a small improvement in listening.
Going from a $300 speaker to a $550 one can make a huge difference.

Or, to put it another way; if you have really good speakers and amp, a dedicated DAC will really shine.

 

[Mark.g4]

Or, to put it another way; if you have really good speakers and amp, a dedicated DAC will really shine.

unfortunately this is not the case.
We are just in the entry level range and in my humble opinion with these low figures, it is not worth spending $250 for a DAC.

In this price range you get greater improvements by purchasing better speakers and amplifiers rather than a DAC.
DAC on the M2 or M3 has been improved compared to past Macs.

 

[OldCorpse]

Mark.g4, you are of course 100% right. The DAC was a kind of security blanket in my mind, that allowed me to think "hey, I can pick ANY speaker and don't have to worry about connectivity, cables, wires, adapters etc. because it'll all be taken care of by the DAC". Expensive security blanket that gave me permission to consider any speaker at all, without worrying about how I'll hook it up to the mini.

The thing to keep in mind, is that with a total budget of about $600-$700, there is no way I'm going to get hifi results. I just want to listen to music and not be absolutely thrown by some horrible effects - here's where I'm coming from: I have a pretty decent hifi system assembled over the years, and I have music that I've lovingly collected for years, and a lot of it I've listened to literally hundreds if not thousands of times. I am extremely habituated to high end reproduction of this music. To now hear it b@stardized in some cheap tinny speakers would be crime and my ears would bleed. All I'm asking from this set up is for my ears not to bleed listening to music I know intimately reproduced from a high end system.

 

[Pag46]

Sorry, I know that's outrageous, so I apologize profusely, but yeah, I'm not fully rational when it comes to equipment... again, my apologies.

Nothing wrong with that!

Everyone’s needs and priorities are different.
In my case, for example, I moved mostly to headphones a few years ago, starting with an Audio GD all-in-one with a Sabre dac inside. I did not like it, so I tried the R27, R2R dac and… wow! Night and day, for my taste. Much more analog, warmer, natural sound. For me, obviously. For other people, the not-so-great measurements of resistor ladders dacs are enough to say that delta-sigma ones, like the Sabre, must sound better.
I do prefer R2R dacs so much that I bought the first R2R dongle for iPhone that came on the market, with lot of enjoyment!

Again, nothing wrong with neither of the two approaches, just tastes and needs.

My headphones setup is not small nor cheap, around 10k including two Spirit Torino headphones and a Unique Melody iem. Never tried to connect anything to the Mac mini M1 that I use as headless Roon server, to be honest.
Compared to the intel iMac or the iPhone without dongle, the external dac is another planet.
Considering how much difference I heard between the two dacs I tried, I am now very curious to try the internal one in the Mac mini and see how close to an external one it can be, on hi-end headphones.

 

[Mark.g4]

Mark.g4, you are of course 100% right. The DAC was a kind of security blanket in my mind, that allowed me to think "hey, I can pick ANY speaker and don't have to worry about connectivity, cables, wires, adapters etc. because it'll all be taken care of by the DAC". Expensive security blanket that gave me permission to consider any speaker at all, without worrying about how I'll hook it up to the mini.

The thing to keep in mind, is that with a total budget of about $600-$700, there is no way I'm going to get hifi results. I just want to listen to music and not be absolutely thrown by some horrible effects - here's where I'm coming from: I have a pretty decent hifi system assembled over the years, and I have music that I've lovingly collected for years, and a lot of it I've listened to literally hundreds if not thousands of times. I am extremely habituated to high end reproduction of this music. To now hear it b@stardized in some cheap tinny speakers would be crime and my ears would bleed. All I'm asking from this set up is for my ears not to bleed listening to music I know intimately reproduced from a high end system.

Precisely because you have a low budget you have to focus your attention on the device that can allow you to have the best listening experience and it is certainly not the DAC.

To give you an example:

There's no point spending much money on Hi-Res or Lossless music when listening your music with $10 earphones because you won't notice any difference compared to AAC or MP3.
Instead, swapping your $10 earphones for a $50 pair can take you a big step forward in your music listening even if you continue to listen to AAC or MP3.

Therefore you have to decide on your musical tastes and choose the speakers and amplifier that are best suited to your needs.
The DAC comes next.

In audio as in life there are priorities.

 

[generdude]

About the Focusrite interface: I wasn't trying to convince anyone to get one, it just happens to be what I already had. I just threw this out there in case anyone else used something similar or had any thoughts about this option. I am very sorry for any confusion.

 

[OldCorpse]

Thank you Mark.g4, I know you're right. And generdude, I totally appreciate any suggestion, trust me - once upon a time, when I thought I had time, I wanted to make some music on a DAW and adding various analogue inputs, instruments etc., so I at least know a tiny bit about Focusrite, and thank you for bringing it up, it's something that I should've paid attention to (even though at this point I'm not in a positon to produce music - I just consume, sigh).

Guys, this has been an awesome discussion so far and I got a huge amount of feedback that will keep me busy for days if not weeks. I'm hoping to conclude the project this year, so...

The truly scary part of this is that the equipment is the easy part of this project. Another part is coming up that scares the living lights out of me, and where I will throw myself at the mercy of this community, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it (basically, it's about not losing my entire life's music collection to digital mishaps - OUCH!).

Again, thank you everybody, I truly appreciate this!

 

[Darren.h]

I USE THESE 8 INCH JBL MONITORS IN MY STUDIO . LOVE THEM. GREAT SOUND! AND CHEAP.

 

[HackMacDaddy]

Have a look at: Yamaha HS8

You can even get an aditional Subwoofer but I'm 99% sure you won't need it ;-)

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

OP, there is much good advice in this thread (and much more will probably follow) and your "confusion" reflects collective "confusion" of different tastes, different ears, different research, different budgets, etc. Someone (many actually) will swear either offering from Apple is superior to all other options and others will have some never-heard-before boutique brand that sounded best-of-all for them. An Apple crowd always pushes Apple offerings, so beware of the brand bias in the pile of HP recommendations that will accumulate in a thread like this. Some can't imagine anything NOT branded Apple.

IMO, the advice you got in post #2 is very good. You probably do NOT need a separate DAC- the one in that Mini will likely deliver the signal at a level of quality that will sound great on good speakers. I'd focus the bulk of my budget on getting the best speakers I can.

I'd also separate the powering from the speakers in the form of good AMP as "middleman" between Mac and the speakers. So that would then become Mac Mini to Amp (as power source) to (dumb but high quality) speakers.

I'd avoid ANY wireless connection options such as HPs, Echos, etc. While HPs sound quite good, wired connections will have no constraints/compression of signals while wireless- especially any of the many bluetooth options- are basically in direct opposition to your primary goal of sound quality. Pinched bandwidth is an enemy of maximizing quality of sound. Wired speakers don't need to pinch bandwidth. Also, any of the "smart" speaker recommendations you'll get are basically "on the clock" for obsolescence: as soon as the "smarts" are vintaged, it may be OVER for the "dumb" part. Like the usually perfectly-good-screens in vintaged iMacs, I see "smart speakers" as a "throw baby out with the bathwater" proposition, making owners have to upgrade much sooner than they would if they had any way to keep using the "dumb" speaker portion after the inevitably vintaged smarts.

Since good speakers will outlast your Mac and probably the next one and maybe the one after that, I'd rethink pinching this particular budget. You're going to spend so much more for the variety of Apple tech during the time these speakers can be serving you, so maybe they deserve an Apple-like product spend or two??? Budget accordingly. Good speakers you buy in 2023 can sound just as good in 2043. How many $1000 iPhones will you have purchased in that span of time?

And lastly- and perhaps most important- put samples of favorite music on your iDevice (and a USB stick) and head for retailers that stock speakers that interest you. Generally, good retailers will let you sample the sound through demo units, using your own music. Let your own ears judge your top 3-5 finalists. Only your own ears can get this right... and the easiest way to pass judgement is to hit the road with demo music and listen to demo speakers.

You may have to visit multiple retailers to sample a top 3-5 list (especially if your list climbs above the mainstream stuff/brands), but do it. Again, this is the rare bit of tech that probably lasts 2+ decades. With average human life expectancies of about 80 years, this purchase might serve you for upwards of 25% of your entire life. It's worth the effort to do some driving (and coming up with a bit more money if needed) to get this right. Your current ears, and those in 2033... and those in 2043 will appreciate it.

Buy from someone with a return policy so that when you give them the second audition in your own home/space, you have options if they don't quite scratch the quality itch. The ultimate test is having them exactly where you want them and listening to them THERE. A return policy will make it possible to swap if the finalist actually turns out to be what was initially considered a runner up. That can happen.

 

[klasma]

The speakers are by far the most important factor in sound quality, besides the room acoustics, so invest as much of your budget as possible in that. I would choose active studio speakers as the best no-BS “bang for the buck”.

The Edifier speakers you linked have digital inputs and a DSP. If you use their analog inputs, the analog signal will be re-digitized again. So it would be better to use the digital inputs, to avoid an unnecessary DAC–ADC cycle. You can use a USB-to-SPDIF converter like this one to connect the Mac mini digitally: https://hifimediy.com/product/hifime-ut23-usb-to-optical-spdif-converter/

 

[kc9hzn]

How can you say that? You need a dac to convert the digital file into an analog signal. Either you use the one inside the Mac mini, or you use an external one, but there is a dac somewhere in the chain.
To me, an external one makes a huge difference. A Topping for example (never heard them to be honest) or something else, like a Chord Mojo2, or even a dongle, I am very happy with a Cayin RU6, it’s for headphones but I think you could send the output into amplified speakers.
What I use regularly would be out of scope here, I cannot recommend it.

As for the connection, usb is perfectly fine, especially for this setup, it is enough To send high res, bit perfect data to the dac, which will do its job, sending the analog signal to the amplifier inside the active speakers.
For them, I read good things about Kef, but they could be out of budget.

By the way, I use Roon as audio software, it’s amazing, I can only recommend it.

I know how painful it is to design a system like this on tight budget and lots of constraints… good luck and enkoy!

Hope this helps a bit.

I think that the user you’re quoting was implying that the Mac mini DAC is probably sufficient for most music listening. And, let’s be honest, it probably is. I would think that most DACs are pretty reasonable these days (well, other than the DACs in very cheap or particularly old devices).

A device like the Chord Mojo2 isn’t just a DAC, it’s also a headphone amp. If you’ve got 100ohm or higher headphones, then yes, the Mojo2 is quite useful. With standard 30ohm headphones, the Mojo2 probably doesn’t make much sense unless you’re running a successful YouTube channel where, among other things, you blow up the crappy headphones bundled with old MP3 players 😉

 

[BrianBaughn]

Be aware of for what a set of speakers is designed. From your description you probably do not want "nearfield" monitors…which are what most studio guys review on YouTube. They're designed for sitting in a chair facing them a short distance away.

 

[aMikko]

Electronics are very affordable in this day and age. That twists a bit the old knowledge of investing mostly in speakers. It definitely makes sense to look for an amplifier or speaker with built in amplification that includes the DAC circuitry. Digital or even wireless connection will be superior. While the MM's analog 3.5mm output may be reasonable, finding a decent cable to carry the signal without picking up significant noise is unlikely. The common ground design of the 3.5mm jack doesn't help either in a speaker application when maximum stereo separation is needed.

Good examples of this line of thinking would be:
KEF LSX II at $1000
Stereo HomePods at $600
Stereo Sonos Era 300 at $900

Sound signatures from different speakers differ greatly, as does personal preferences for them. I would seek to audition at least two in the room, with a familiar track. I believe KEF retailers would be happy to help and Apple and Sonos provide generous return policies for this.

 

[Lift Bar]

I know you're not asking for this, but do you have a nice pair of open-backed headphones? Massdrop/sennheiser hd6xx is difficult to beat for 200 bucks. It solves for "modest music listening set up for a small room/office without loud volume." They sound great and are super comfortable. I think finding anything that compares in terms of sound quality as a loud speaker system would be exceedingly expensive and probably involve room treatment and all the rest. Something to consider.

 

[Ben J.]

I've never seen so much crap advice in one thread.
Everybody's an expert these days. It's sad.
Go ahead - ban me.

 

[genexx]

I have build Speakers for living decades ago but for Desktop you have to keep in mind if you do not live in a City with all that background noise and have a MBA with no fan there are only a few with no noise when positioned on the Desk.

Also most of the recommendations are overkill.

I have bought one JBL Flip 6 and have it connected via BT.
There is a Video that shows very accurate that out of the Flip Series this is by far the most natural frequency response.
Small and i use it for anything including the TV in my Office or my Daughter uses it when coocking in my Office kittchen and connecting her Phone to it.
On Desk it is also very convenient for all the Online Meetings and no Feedback with my Rode NT USB+ even in Front of it.
It has more Power than you initially may think.

At the end of the Video there is a very Precise Audio Demo of each JBL out of the Mobile Series:

 

[Cassandle]

There’s lots of snake oil in audio. Spent most of your money on the speakers and/or headphones - that’s where 95% of the difference is.

Unless you are doing critical listening, you are unlikely to notice the difference between different DACs, especially on speakers or headphones at the budge the OP is talking about.

 

[Cassandle]

Seen a few people mention HomePods. They do sound great, especially as a stereo pair. But I sold mine in the end, partly because I needed the sound for other devices (I have a work Windows laptop and a Steam Deck for gaming) and replaced them with a pair of second hand M1 Active 520s (these are very old and discontinued) and the speakers sound better.

 

[MajorFubar]

Throw your money at the best pair of active speakers you can afford and just drive them from the headphone output from your computer. Done.

Then look at room treatment. No speakers will ever sound at their best without some kind of room treatment. Especially this day and age where people seem to have gone absolutely crazy with the laminate flooring instead of nice acoustically-deadening carpets and underlay.

Don’t buy HomePods. Literally nowhere outside of this Apple-centric bubble will you find those POS recommended by either studio people or hifi people.

 

[Mark.g4]

I read a lot of comments about buying expensive gear that brings negligible improvements.

You don't need a lot of money to make a good system that sounds very good, what you need is study.
A good class D amplifier with 25V capacitors as can be a model with an original TPA3116 chip, It can be obtained for $15-50 depending on the models and already comes with a Bluetooth 5.0 receiver as standard in addition to the analogue input.
A decent power supply for the amplifier another $30-50

A pair of used Mordaunt Avant Short 902 can be found for around $100.

With $200 you have an excellent entry level system to listen your music and the rest of the money you can use for the restaurant, the gym, a holiday or anything else.

 

[heretiq]

Guys, I love this community for all the knowledge, passion and helpfulness. I thank each and every one of you, and I assure you that I carefully read everything you guys post - right now I'm still going one by one through the list Mark.g4 gave - it's a long list! - so it will take me some time to digest it all.

At the same time, you can see why I said I'm overwhelmend! I am a music lover who is passionate about music (hey, my library is 2TB of files at the moment), however I'm really not much of a tech person - hence why I come here and ask silly questions. But you can imagine how confused I am - a non-techie - when smart technologically savvy folks like you have different opinions... gives a guy like me whiplash, 😅

Even when I think I understand something, I'm thrown for a loop: generdude mentions the Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, judging by the price I think it's the 4th Gen. Now I've of course seen it out there, but I always associated it more with music production, whereas the Topping E50 (I'll link as Pag46 hasn't heard of them) is more of a DAC pure play (with preamp functions, filters etc.). The reason I picked the E50 is because it uses the ES9068AS chip with some outstanding specs. But now that generdude mentions Focusrite, I am thrown for a loop, it's a different device, but I have not explored in depth f.ex. what chip it uses and what the tech parameters are - perhaps I'm missing something. Very confusing. Meanwhile Pag46 has thrown out a whole another bunch of interfaces I'll have to hunt down the specs for.

Meanwhile Allen_Wentz makes a very strong case for HomePods. My office is 11' x 13' with 9' ceiling. Unfortunately I can't hang the the HomePods on the wall, as I can't hammer anything into the wall. I certainly strongly appreciate Allen's argument that given my budget limitations and listening environment high end equipment is going to be unattainable and if attained will be wasted. I mean, I'm not going to bring over my giant Martin Logans and stick 'em in here. A good argument can be made that any high end system is going to be wasted on this space anyway. So I hear what Allen is saying, only I have zero experience with HomePod, and just looking at them, it's very hard to believe that they can put out anything at all (again, I'm NOT going to be blasting music at high volume!), because especially in a furnished pretty acustically "dead" room, you need some power to make the soundwaves propagate and I can't see how HomePods can overcome this deadish room. But I also take Allen's post seriously - what now, I'm in a pickle.

In all this confusion, I almost feel like throwing up my hands and just getting the standard Yamaha hs5 pair and calling it a day. But I know I shouldn't just give up, so I'll struggle on. Thank you every one again, and I'll keep reading your discussion, as it's very informative either way!

+1 for HomePods

As someone who has 4 HomePods (2 stereo pairs — one pair in an 11’x13’ master bedroom the other in an open space 20’x30’ living room/kitchen/dining room), I can vouch for the following:

1. HomePod stereo pair easily fills both rooms at max 50-75% volume
2. Sound quality is excellent for everything from movies to contemplative music across a broad range of music
3. Room adaptation makes speaker placement practically a non-issue (pairs are 1-2 feet off the ground respectively)

Friends often express surprise at the quality and simplicity — no wires except AC power cord.

I selected HomePods and AppleTV after downsizing from a house with $40,000 of multichannel/multi-speaker AV gear in order to simplify. This is one of the best decisions I’ve made and would never go back to the complexity of traditional AV systems. YMMV. I hope this helps.

 

[kc9hzn]

Don’t buy HomePods. Literally nowhere outside of this Apple-centric bubble will you find those POS recommended by either studio people or hifi people.

Well no, of course not. But that’s down to the culture of hi-fi audiophiles as much as anything.

1) You can’t easily hook up analog or non-Apple audio sources to HomePods. (There are ways of doing it, but they’re involved and possibly more trouble than it’s worth.)
2) The whole computational audio business is pretty antithetical to the audiophile/audiophool mindset. It’s very much like car gearheads’ preference for manual transmissions over automatic transmissions, audiophiles want to be able to fiddle with their speakers to get the perfect setup (and to buy new gear to elevate their setup*). That all is stuff you don’t get with a more automatic solution like HomePods.
3) They’re Apple. The audiophile market is as much about status as anything else, in my experience. It’s about being able to name drop a notable brand like Sennheiser as much as anything, and Apple’s not expensive enough, not exclusive enough, and doesn’t have the strong history of audio reputation.

* In many ways, the audiophile hobby strikes me as being very similar to ultralight camping. Sometimes, it seems like practitioners of ultralight camping spend more time focusing on shaving ounces than actually being outdoors camping. Oftentimes, it’s also about buying expensive ultralight gear to chase clout. There’s definitely an element of this in the audiophile community.

 

[Cassandle]

There’s no doubt that the HomePods sound great (if you like the way they are tuned - I personally did, they make music sound fun, they don’t get fussy about the quality of the recording and they sounded good on all genres I listen to). The biggest issue with them is not the sound, but their ability to work with anything outside of the Apple ecosystem. If you have a gaming PC for example, you’re going to need something else to provide audio for it.

Another thing to consider with HomePods is longevity. At some point software support will cease and they may stop working. Whereas a wired bookcase speaker or studio monitor can (and do) last for decades.

 

[kc9hzn]

I’ve notionally got the hardware I need to set up audio gear to the HomePods but haven’t gotten around to testing it out yet. I’ve got a Raspberry Pi that I plan on installing software onto to let it send audio to the HomePods, and I have a USB sound card device with analog audio inputs. It’s just a matter of taking the time to set it up. It is more effort than I’d expect most people to put into it, though.