Spotify, Epic Games, and Others Argue Apple's App Store Changes Do Not Comply With DMA

[wbeasley]

There are reasons beyond the cut Apple takes for wanting alternate app stores.
My primary computing devices are a Google Pixel phone, an iPad, a MacBook Pro, and a Windows 11 PC.
When I buy games on Steam, I can play them on my MacBook and my PC. Why can't I do the same with my phone and my tablet? Maybe all four?

Apple won't carry some kinds of apps, including emulators and some adult content, including games that are less explicit than what is allowed on streaming video apps in the App Store. Some countries may have restrictions on apps that Apple would otherwise allow.

Why can’t you play Steam games on consoles? Because Sony and Nintendo don’t want you to. It’s their device. Their rules. And Apple has the same protection on iOS devices. Computers have always been treated differently. IOS are powerful tools indeed but they were built to perform mobile tasks better.

You have a choice if you want open mobile apps. Android.

Because Apple decided it was different?

because when Apple entered and turned the phone market upside down, other apps didnt exist.
every vendor provided an OS and some apps they developed. in house or bought in.

Apple entered a new market with a clean slate to work with.

even Android initially arrived with Google apps built into the OS.

only later, after Jobs was persuaded to allow them, did external apps arrive with an App Store.
And Android pivoted and went the same way but open slather on loading from anywhere.

Apple has always been clear that Mac, iPads and iPhones are complimentary devices with different features for different users and uses.

 

[Onelifenofear]

I assure you it’s Apple that gets the value out of Developers. Not the other way around

Rubbish. Apple created this space. Use developers CAN make a lot of money with worldwide sales.

I am happy to be paying them their 15% ( hopefully 30% sometime )

I wouldn't have 1/100th the sales without the Appstore and won't be touching the others.

 

[mrochester]

Rubbish. Apple created this space. Use developers CAN make a lot of money with worldwide sales.

I am happy to be paying them their 15% ( hopefully 30% sometime )

I wouldn't have 1/100th the sales without the Appstore and won't be touching the others.

Yeah I don’t know where this bizarre narrative comes from that iOS app developers don’t make absolutely loads of money. The figures speak for themselves in terms of how much Apple pays out.

Of course if you have a rubbish app that doesn’t bring consumers any value then you likely won’t do very well at all, but that’s the public voting with their £££.

 

[mr.vince]

Because Apple decided it was different?

And the EU said it’s not. Bummer. I also see their own legal docs contradict this. It’s either a fee for the tools or it’s not. But saying the dev fee pays for all of this and then asking to get paid again is getting paid twice.

I am sure we’ll get this sorted… the EU is ready to step up in a few days. Apple is just a company.

 

[wbeasley]

I'm not really a fan of console hardware either. But if there were only two viable competitors in the monitor/TV videogaming space, I might be more open to force them to open up to some degree, but there are six significant options: Nintendo, Xbox, PlayStation, Windows, Mac, Linux. On three of those platforms, developers don't have to get permission to sell their games.

Why arent you a fan of consoles?

A PC, Mac or Linux box are all general purpose computing devices. With widely varying specs and not all are up to gaming. Anyone who buys a cheap laptop with an awful screen is not going to have much fun or success running modern games. At least consoles have known hardware and tailor games to it.

If you did want consoles more open, what would you want them to allow you to do?
Personally my biggest gripe with a Switch is you cant play media files with a builtin or third party app.
VLC on it would be awesome for travelling. Sony's PSP had a reasonable media player although video was a bit fiddly on res and bit rates and file sizes but third party encoders knew the settings and made it easy.

Apple has many many iOS media players. Just lacks the SD card to cheaply expand memory for the files you want to use. Yeah you can plug in a USB C disk in iPads (and newer iPhones) but they affect battery significantly.

Dont forget some consoles make little or no money but rely on game purchases to make it up over the lifespan.
Hence they lock it down tightly.

Most TVs now have decent media players and support a lot of codecs for USB playback. Wasnt always the way.

 

[mrochester]

And the EU said it’s not. Bummer. I also see their own legal docs contradict this. It’s either a fee for the tools or it’s not. But saying the dev fee pays for all of this and then asking to get paid again is getting paid twice.

I am sure we’ll get this sorted… the EU is ready to step up in a few days. Apple is just a company.

Yeah it‘ll all get sorted, Apple will just shift the costs elsewhere. This is why the whole thing is rather futile if the aim is to reduce Apple’s revenue.

 

[wbeasley]

And the EU said it’s not. Bummer. I also see their own legal docs contradict this. It’s either a fee for the tools or it’s not. But saying the dev fee pays for all of this and then asking to get paid again is getting paid twice.

I am sure we’ll get this sorted… the EU is ready to step up in a few days. Apple is just a company.

Apple is just a company... LOL. A company that very successful in many many countries not just the EU.

Wonder what would happen in the EU if Apple just shut down sales for a while?
EU farmers like to protest, transport workers havent held back. Do you think EU Apple users would stay quiet?
The EU claims it is all about competition yet if Apple decided not to play there would only be Android having a monopoly... how does that benefit consumers?

The EU already revisited many of the initial claims that Spoftify were pushing and narrowed the focus and ruled out most of what Spotify wanted. The changes Apple are about to release will have been very carefully designed to meet the words the EU wrote. And Spotify and Epic are already complaining.

 

[mr.vince]

I’ll guess we’ll find out soon. Apple for sure isn’t going to leave the EU. They’re just a company with shareholders.

 

[visualseed]

The justifications of “Apple needs to charge this fee because XYZ” or “iPhone would be a lawless hellhole and a serious security risk” all fall apart when you remember that macOS exists.

You’re right, it’s their choice to pick which APIs to monetise. However, that will come with arguments of “unfairness” and “anti-competitiveness” because of their inconsistent approach to this. As a macOS developer I can write code using the same apis on iOS and release it on macOS free of charge but if I want (literally the same) app to run on iOS I have to pay per user? While already paying a developer program to a apple for “access to all tools” that I need to build my app?

Why do kids eat free at certain restaurants when it's the same food they serve to adults cooked in the same kitchen?

Are you saying a company can’t choose to subsidize one of its smaller market segments with revenue from one of its larger ones as a business decision?

Macs account for about 1/10 of annual unit sales compared to iPhone at a much higher ARPU. When you factor in the revenue they do get from the Mac AppStore and first-party software like Final Cut, logic, etc… Apple probably makes more money on Mac software than they loose by subsidizing free apps on iOS.

 

[AppliedMicro]

So if buying skins or Vbucks is OK in a physical store, why isnt it in an app?
The commissions are probably the same or close.

First of all, iOS or iOS apps are no physical store.
Second, why should commissions be the same?

Apple has been selling their own version of "Vbucks": iTunes/App Store (now Apple) gift cards - and their gross margins are only a small fraction of 30%.

Using an alt app store is a personalisation choice you make as well so why shouldn't Apple get paid for that feature you are choosing to use? No one is making you use it.

Like is choice. And consequences of those choices.

Having chosen to play Fortnite over other games is a different choice than between Android and iOS. Different network effects, different barriers to switch. Again, any layperson understands the difference between one game (and the options to substitute it) - and an operating system that manages a great part of your life.

 

[AppliedMicro]

The iPad is not a ‘general purpose computer’ (whatever that means) and Apple agrees. The iPhone is not a ‘general purpose computer’ either, it’s a smartphone (which are appliances).

Apple disagrees:

"iPad is so versatile, it’s more than up to any task. Whether you’re working on a project, expressing your creativity, or playing an immersive game, iPad is a fun and powerful way to get it done. Here are just a few of the countless things you can do with iPad."

Run powerful apps effortlessly.
iPad works with the powerful apps you’re familiar with, like Adobe Photoshop or Microsoft Office, with the added ease of using them with touch"

3D design at your fingertips.
Even the most intensive creative projects are brought to life on iPad. Use touch to move and manipulate objects

Snap a photo. Scan a doc.
Shoot a film. All on the same device.

Learn code, build real apps with SwiftUI, and see your ideas come to life on the App Store.

There’s an app for that.
Apps in the App Store are designed to take full advantage of the power and versatility of iPad."

👉 Clearly a general purpose computer that they're describing. One that's designed for a whole variety of different (consumer) computing tasks, not limited to one or a few particular ones.

 

[mrochester]

Apple disagrees:

"iPad is so versatile, it’s more than up to any task. Whether you’re working on a project, expressing your creativity, or playing an immersive game, iPad is a fun and powerful way to get it done. Here are just a few of the countless things you can do with iPad."

Run powerful apps effortlessly.
iPad works with the powerful apps you’re familiar with, like Adobe Photoshop or Microsoft Office, with the added ease of using them with touch"

3D design at your fingertips.
Even the most intensive creative projects are brought to life on iPad. Use touch to move and manipulate objects

Snap a photo. Scan a doc.
Shoot a film. All on the same device.

Learn code, build real apps with SwiftUI, and see your ideas come to life on the App Store.

There’s an app for that.
Apps in the App Store are designed to take full advantage of the power and versatility of iPad."

👉 Clearly a general purpose computer that they're describing. One that's designed for a whole variety of different (consumer) computing tasks, not limited to one or a few particular ones.

Being designed for a variety of computing tasks does not make something a ‘general purpose computer’, which is a definition with no actual agreed upon meaning anyway.

If by ‘general purpose computer’ you mean something akin to the ‘traditional computer’ market where the hardware and software are 2 distinct markets (such that you buy your hardware and operating system separately), then the iPad and iPhone are not a part of that market. They are instead what you might consider ‘appliance computers’, where the hardware and software are integrated, but the overall functionality is equivalent to a ‘traditional computer’.

 

[wbeasley]

First of all, iOS or iOS apps are no physical store.
Second, why should commissions be the same?

Apple has been selling their own version of "Vbucks": iTunes/App Store (now Apple) gift cards - and their gross margins are only a small fraction of 30%.


Having chosen to play Fortnite over other games is a different choice than between Android and iOS. Different network effects, different barriers to switch. Again, any layperson understands the difference between one game (and the options to substitute it) - and an operating system that manages a great part of your life.

a store is somewhere you purchase something from. be it physical or digital.

there are many paid apps and devs make money and pay commission without complaint.
many been on here saying they are happy even at 30%.

how do you know iTunes cards are a small fraction of 30%?
we had an office supplies company that regularly ran 20% of iTunes cards for years.
they werent selling them at a loss. just less.

your comment about Fortnight and OS, even with coloured highlighting, isnt what this topic was about...

 

[AppliedMicro]

Apple taking a cut for in app purchase of skins and upgrades is NO different to buying voucher cards at retail. No different. It’s not discriminatory for Apple to do this.

That doesn't make sense at all.
Of course it's different - just look at the taxation.

But thank you for confirming that purchases in physical retail stores are "no different" than in-app purchases for skins and app upgrades. 😺

👉 Again, let them pay the same. Don't discriminate.

Other apps that let you buy goods are order fulfillment processes. They don’t change the app in anyway. No skin. No upgrade. A product or service is delivered to you.

Spotify or Netflix streaming music or video to me doesn't change the app in anyway. No skin, no upgrade. Just a media stream delivered to me - the app is just part of the fulfilment process from Spotify to my ears.

👉 So yeah - let them pay the same.

Being designed for a variety of computing tasks does not make something a ‘general purpose computer’, which is a definition with no actual agreed upon meaning anyway.

Academia has no problem with the definition - though it's often a rather technical one.
Maybe we should rather call it a personal computer.

 

[mrochester]

That doesn't make sense at all.
Of course it's different - just look at the taxation.

But thank you for confirming that purchases in physical retail stores are "no different" than in-app purchases for skins and app upgrades. 😺

👉 Again, let them pay the same. Don't discriminate.


Spotify or Netflix streaming music or video to me doesn't change the app in anyway. No skin, no upgrade. Just a media stream delivered to me - the app is just part of the fulfilment process from Spotify to my ears.

👉 So yeah - let them pay the same.


Academia has no problem with the definition - though it's often a rather technical one.
Maybe we should rather call it a personal computer.

My point is you have to differentiate between different types of personal computer. There are ‘traditional’ PCs such as a Windows computer, then there are appliance computers such as iPads, iPhones, and then there are hybrids in between such as Macs and Android phones.

They each have a place in the market offering consumers the ability to choose what type of computer they want.

 

[wbeasley]

That doesn't make sense at all.
Of course it's different - just look at the taxation.

But thank you for confirming that purchases in physical retail stores are "no different" than in-app purchases for skins and app upgrades. 😺

👉 Again, let them pay the same. Don't discriminate.


Spotify or Netflix streaming music or video to me doesn't change the app in anyway. No skin, no upgrade. Just a media stream delivered to me - the app is just part of the fulfilment process from Spotify to my ears.

👉 So yeah - let them pay the same.


Academia has no problem with the definition - though it's often a rather technical one.
Maybe we should rather call it a personal computer.

Huh? You run counter arguments it seems...

what taxation rules (thought i'd respect your formating options) are you suddenly throwing into the mix?

using the Spotify or Netflix app is not charging for streaming content. it's charging for subscribing through the app.
if you dont want to pay for it, you do as Spotify and Netflix currently do, outside the app store, and log in. simple.
even Netflix arent jumping up and down about this. it works for them now doing it outside.

using the same program on a PC/Mac and an iPad is totally different.
features arent always available on the ipad version. and dont even think about adding extensions.
Word is sort of usable, sort of, but you still need a keyboard rather than touch type.
you can do many things at a pinch as a one off but look at the most common workflows and the right tool jumps out.
in some instances, a phone is a better tool. many a time i've taken a photo and emailed as a straightened, cleanedup PDF which a desktop cant do as easily. does that mean the phone is a super computer?

 

[AppliedMicro]

how do you know iTunes cards are a small fraction of 30%?

Source: Sold them myself. And saw the calculation from our company.
And that was even before their use was extended to buying physical devices.

what taxation rules are you suddenly throwing into the mix?

Gift cards aren't taxed before redemption of their value. It's (very simplified) like transferring money from one account to another account, without it being a taxable transaction - unlike commissions being charged.

using the Spotify or Netflix app is not charging for streaming content. it's charging for subscribing through the app.
if you dont want to pay for it, you so as Spotify and Netflix currently do, outside the app store, and log in. simple.
even Netflix arent jumping up and down about this. it works for them now doing it outside.

And - coming from Apple as the operating system vendor and competitor to Spotify - that is anticompetitive discrimination.

When I order an Uber, book a hotel room or flight on the Booking.com app or buy something from AliExpress, I can pay in-app. Without going through Apple and their payment system. Which is very convenient.

And I assume we do agree that customer prefer convenience, don't they?

My point is you have to differentiate between different types of personal computer. There are ‘traditional’ PCs such as a Windows computer, then there are appliance computers such as iPads, iPhones, and then there are hybrids in between such as Macs and Android phones.

I think you're arguing from a perspective of 10 or 15 years ago.
iPads can do (almost) everything a traditional PC can do - and Apple has been marketing them as such.
Despite their fixed hardware configuration and operating system, there are "general purpose" personal computers.
Or whatever we'd call them.

Gaming consoles don't serve (virtually) all of one's personal computing or communication needs (though theoretically they may be able to). This is obvious.

 

[gnipgnop]

I think you're arguing from a perspective of 10 or 15 years ago.
iPads can do (almost) everything a traditional PC can do - and Apple has been marketing them as such.
Despite their fixed hardware configuration and operating system, there are "general purpose" personal computers.
Or whatever we'd call them.

The argument per "general purpose computing" is pointless. There's no law that says you have to lose money on console hardware in order to charge a 30% commission. Steam was charging 30% commission before the iPhone even existed on the market and they weren't selling any console hardware. They were just a digital store on Windows. Originally it was just for Valve's 1st party games and then it expanded to include 3rd party games in 2005.

 

[treacher]

Yeah it's kinda pointless.

 

[gnipgnop]

Valve allows for Steam keys to be sold on other websites, and what's more they do not take a cut from them. This often seems to be forgotten.

Big caveats though: 5,000 keys maximum per game, can't sell the key for a lower price than Steam.

 

[dandbj13]

I read the comments here all the time but seldom participate in the discussions more actively. I just wanted to add that I don't understand the complaints that have to do with malicious compliance. It might just be a cultural thing. If a company maliciously complied, the key is that they complied. It doesn't matter how petulantly they did so. If they complied, they complied.

There seems to be some notion of the spirit of the law vs the letter. That also makes no sense to me. Laws are composed of letters and not spirits. If you want a company to do a certain thing, then write that clearly in your law. Don't leave it as an inference. If Apple complied with the letter of the law but didn't give lawmakers what they really wanted, they should be removed and replaced with people who can write better laws. Apple should not be responsible for not fulfilling what lawmakers wanted if the lawmakers didn't actually say it clearly in what they wrote.

I pay my taxes maliciously. I pay the least that I can legally get away with. I bet everyone else does too. But that doesn't change the fact that I am in compliance. And if regulators want me to pay more taxes, they will have to codify that into a better-written law.

 

[Samplasion]

The DMA stated that Apple must allow either sideloading or app stores. Emphasis on the “or”. I guess we know which option Apple has chosen.

Can you share the article and paragraph where that's stated?

 

[Samplasion]

You don't have to. Just if you want the ability to distribute on the AppStore.

That's wrong. You have to submit your app to Apple for notarization regardless. And guess what they want in exchange for that "service"? That's right: a 99$/yr. fee.

 

[vladimirc]

"Core Technology" There it is. Put up or shut up. Either STOP USING Apple's developers' work, or PAY FOR IT. 🤷‍♂️

iOS dev here who literally could never make a penny without standing on the shoulders of thousands of Apple iOS devs, who’ve put in uncountable years of effort into areas I basically have zero experience or expertise in. 👋

Most people claiming Apple's cut is unearned don’t know what “import Foundation” does at the top of literally every iOS code file in literally every AppStore app. (Hint: It's not necessary to get an app into the App Store!)

Ditto for:

import UIKit
import SwiftUI
import CryptoKit
Button()
let task = URLSession.shared.dataTask(with: session)
etc, etc, etc…

Literally 💯 of iOS apps use code written by Apple to do a staggering amount of their work.

ZERO apps roll their own custom code instead of using the mountain of frameworks and APIs that Apple has built and perfected (complete with expected features like free dark mode, rotation, language, compat across device, accessibility size, backgrounding, persistence, etc, etc, etc features).

ZERO apps do this because it would cost 10-20x as much to develop, and nobody would pay for the lesser experience.

Even the simplest app would take literal years more development, and STILL not achieve anything close to feature parity by dropping in Apple’s code with zero effort.

Oh, and when iOS updates with new features, or a new style? INSTANTLY that app needs massive work to retain feature parity with other apps that did zero work to match style or make use of many new features. (Sometimes a TEENY bit of work to make a huge new feature work if you want.)

Show me an app developer who doesn’t lean HEAVILY on Apple’s developers’ work, and I’ll show you somebody who gets to talk about the “outrageous” price Apple charges for their work. 🙄

please explain how all this applies to apple charging a 15% fee for every monthly subscription to netflix, gamepass, spotify or office365?

 

[vladimirc]

Except. Apple dealt with everything. Apple advisors to deal with customer complaints. Refunds and managing all the charges and setup cost in the countries they were in. I find it annoying that no EU companies seem to be copping this scrutiny. Spotify alone should be taken to task for their practices. Epic games is a whole other story. Fact is Epic and Spotify were happy to sign up to Apples store when it suited the. Then they go greedier and did not want to pay for the privilege anymore.

Of course they didn't want to pay for the privilege of paying 15% of all their earnings to apple. Why would spotify have to pay 15% on every subscription that is listened to on an iphone? The cherry on the cake is that Apple then uses this money to subsidize a music streaming service that is in direct competition with Spotify. I think Spotify would be happy to pay 15% if apple music was made a separate company, in competition with both apple and spotify that should also pay 15% of their revenues to apple. That would make the playing field even