Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Spotify isn't paying Apple 30% so it's hard to find an article about a hypothetical that isn't actually happening. The reason they frame it as revenue is because the whole $11 is Spotify's revenue.

It doesn't make sense to me that the rights holders would accept less of the total subscription price just because the money passed through Apple first.

And even with the third option, after royalties, Apple would be making more money on Spotify subscriptions than Spotify, who is also a direct competitor.
 
Last edited:
Spotify isn't paying Apple 30% so it's hard to find an article about a hypothetical that isn't actually happening. The reason they frame it as revenue is because the whole $11 is Spotify's revenue.
Revenue is revenue. Spotify would receive $7.70 in revenue on an $11 subscription from Apple.

It doesn't make sense to me that the rights holders would accept less of the total subscription price just because the money passed through Apple first.
No different than if Spotify wanted to offer a discount like they claim to want to do.
 
Revenue is revenue. Spotify would receive $7.70 in revenue on an $11 subscription from Apple.
And they would pass 100% of that 70% along to the rights holders.
No different than if Spotify wanted to offer a discount like they claim to want to do.
Any discount from Spotify would cut into their 30%, not the rights holders cut.

Or do you think a company could start a $5 a month subscription music service and pay only $3.50 to the record labels?
 
And they would pass 100% of that 70% along to the rights holders.
I already provided a source that says you are wrong. Feel free to provide a different source that supports your position.

Any discount from Spotify would cut into their 30%, not the rights holders cut.
Source? I doubt Spotify is paying $7.70 per user per month for their free service.

Or do you think a company could start a $5 a month subscription music service and pay only $3.50 to the record labels?
I have no idea. But I doubt they could afford to do business making $1.50 per user when Spotify is losing money making double that.
 
I already provided a source that says you are wrong. Feel free to provide a different source that supports your position.
Your source didn't take into account a third party, so it really isn't evidence for either of us. But why would the record labels accept less total money because it passed through Apple first?
Source? I doubt Spotify is paying $7.70 per user per month for their free service.
Of course not. I was only comparing the subscription services.
 
Your source didn't take into account a third party, so it really isn't evidence for either of us.
You're just making that up. The source and many others say revenue. Spotify was paying some money to Apple and Google until recently, so it's not like they never considered it.

But why would the record labels accept less total money because it passed through Apple first?
Because they agreed to a percentage of revenue.

Of course not. I was only comparing the subscription services.
So you have no evidence for your claim. Per forum rules, please cite a source or retract the claim.
 
You're just making that up. The source and many others say revenue. Spotify was paying some money to Apple and Google until recently, so it's not like they never considered it.
Spotify was charging an additional $3 through Apple to make up for the difference. They stopped accepting new subscriptions through the App Store in 2016. Because no new signups were allowed, for a few years after that everybody was at the 15% rate, so Spotify was actually making about a dollar extra after Apple's cut. And Apple subscriptions made up less than 1% of Spotify's revenue before they disabled all support.

Spotify only pays 4% to Google if Google Play is chosen as the payment method. 0% if the user chooses to subscribe directly to Spotify. The user can choose either method in the Spotify app downloaded from Google Play.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: BaldiMac
Same as Apple Music on Google Play, by the way. They offer their own in-app payment processing.
 
Aren't they doing most of the work anyways to have a functioning OS with standard apps?

Great question.

First. I wouldn't guess it was "most" of the work. I would not be shocked if it was less than half the work on an internal API vs a public api that did the same thing. There is a truly stunning amount of work put into Apple's public apis. This isn't just the coding, but the documenting, the training materials and video sessions (produced and presented by the engineers) as well. But more than that even. The stability is rare in software dev, how long an API is maintained before being deprecated. Plus the support Apple provides when it is deprecated (they do a TON of extra work to make sure old apps don't just break one year). An internal API can benefit from many of these, but just don't require the sheer tonnage of effort required.

Second. Even if most of the work for many APIs were needed anyway. Overall it will be much less than half the work. There is CONSTANT development of brand new features, and convenience APIs for developers. Patterns and tools that make it easier to develop faster. To compete with the patterns in other frameworks (which aren't used for app development, but do have modern whiz-bang software dev features). TONS of this work (announced every year at WWDC) is by no means required for Apple to produce its OS and Apps (most of Apple's apps don't get updated for YEARS with these new features).

Third. Who gets to decide how apple can make revenue for its work? Literally every person in here complaining that it's not fair is not appreciating that it wouldn't exist if Apple didn't get revenue to justify the MASSIVE developer expense. Without the same amount of revenue, Apple would cut development, apps wouldn't get as better each year

Truly the pace of new stuff coming out each year is amazing. Before I was a developer, WWDC keynote was my favourite. Now I can't wait to get past the keynote to hear the State of the Union (basically the developer API/features keynote always right after the actual keynote) to hear what new toys Apple is giving us.

Why can they offer access to those APIs on macOS, but not on iOS?

Well they do charge for it on the Mac, just only for App Store apps on the Mac. And not for any app Mac/iOS that doesn't charge the user money.

This is frankly wonderful that so many of us get to use this work for free!

But are you really asking why Apple can't give ALL this work away free if it gives some of it away free?

That's like asking why a lawyer can't do all their work pro-bono. They couldn't do ANY pro-bono work if they weren't paid for the rest of it! Sure there's a host of reasons to do pro-bono work, some of them directly benefiting the lawyer in the long-run. But that doesn't change the fact that they need to get paid or none of it can happen!

Exact same thing with Apple choosing a model of selling its product which works best for them.

Apple needs to justify every dollar spent on expense by making a profit on that dollar. Or they have to cut that expense. This is just how public companies operate.

They choose a shared-effort, shared-success payment model. But ANY model they choose will involve them making the same amount of money for the same amount of work.

(This new model they're offering, lets people avoid the 30% cut model, but they STILL have to pay a ton if tons of users are using Apple's code beyond what's strictly necessary to get an app in the the App Store and open to a completely custom experience.)

This model in turn has created a STUPENDOUSLY profitable app ecosystem.

You absolutely cannot overstate what an impact the Apple App Store has had on consumer software. People just didn't pay for software before. They STILL don't really on any other platform (except some super-closed down gaming distribution systems, but those are different in a lot of ways, especially the profitability for the average joe). That ecosystem is unique and revolutionized an entire industry of software development. Making it profitable for app developers like me to spend years working on apps.

At the end of the day, Apple deserves to get paid for the part of each app that they wrote. If developers only want to use the bare minimum to get their app onto the app store and open on a phone, they don't have to pay Apple any cut at all (just the $99 developer fee to release as many apps as they want).
 
  • Like
Reactions: wbeasley
Apple needs to justify every dollar spent on expense by making a profit on that dollar. Or they have to cut that expense. This is just how public companies operate.
I can't comment on the technical aspect. Just as a side note, I know that devs complain a lot about how bad Apple's documentation of APIs has gotten.

On the business side, I just don't buy, that Apple somehow could not afford to develop all those APIs, and that there is a causality between R&D spend on those APIs and App Store revenue. I'm not proposing it, but even if Apple could not collect any App Store revenue, they would still have a very strong incentive to invest in those APIs. Why? Becuase a naked iPhone without third-party apps would be much less attractive for customers. The software sells the hardware. And most of the margins are still in the hardware sales.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Samplasion
You absolutely cannot overstate what an impact the Apple App Store has had on consumer software. People just didn't pay for software before. They STILL don't really on any other platform (except some super-closed down gaming distribution systems, but those are different in a lot of ways, especially the profitability for the average joe). That ecosystem is unique and revolutionized an entire industry of software development. Making it profitable for app developers like me to spend years working on apps.
Most people still don't pay for non-game software. Even on the Apple App Store, most revenue is from games. And most of the game revenue isn't from buying games upfront, but from ads or in-game currency in games designed using psychological tricks to get people to pay as much as possible.

As someone who plays a lot of games, I think the App Store has been bad for gaming overall.

The stability is rare in software dev, how long an API is maintained before being deprecated. Plus the support Apple provides when it is deprecated (they do a TON of extra work to make sure old apps don't just break one year). An internal API can benefit from many of these, but just don't require the sheer tonnage of effort required.
Huh? I follow a lot of independent game developers on social media, and many have complained about how often they have to update their games for iOS to keep up with Apple's changes. Many just don't bother releasing iOS versions any more.

On Steam for Windows, I've bought games for over 20 years, and almost all of them still work today. On my Mac, most of the games I've bought on Steam that were once compatible with Macs no longer are.
 
I just shortened it - no malicious intent here (it’s not that easy on a touchscreen device).

<removed>
Hahaha, all those posters who claim they want everything to run on their phones including IDEs etc and that phones and iPads are computers...

And then you say you edited because IT'S NOT THAT EASY ONE A TOUCHSCREEN DEVICE.

Geez, kind of like you need to pick the right tool for the right job an iPhone isnt a general purpose computing device that should do everything... :)
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: treacher and I7guy
Most people still don't pay for non-game software. Even on the Apple App Store, most revenue is from games. And most of the game revenue isn't from buying games upfront, but from ads or in-game currency in games designed using psychological tricks to get people to pay as much as possible.

As someone who plays a lot of games, I think the App Store has been bad for gaming overall.


Huh? I follow a lot of independent game developers on social media, and many have complained about how often they have to update their games for iOS to keep up with Apple's changes. Many just don't bother releasing iOS versions any more.

On Steam for Windows, I've bought games for over 20 years, and almost all of them still work today. On my Mac, most of the games I've bought on Steam that were once compatible with Macs no longer are.
if the App Store has been bad for games how come there are so many available there AND as you said most revenue in app store is from games...
 
Last edited:
  • Haha
Reactions: treacher
What you think the user paid for has no bearing on what you are obligated to paid to license the technology used in your plugin. That Adobe let you use their basic APIs for free is a business decision Adobe made. I could very easily create plugins that require me as a developer to pay license fees to use IP or other underlying technologies. In another life I created plugins for Illustrator that required paying a licensing fee to Pantone based on blocks of 1000 downloads. Another required a Postscript license from Adobe directly that was outside the license Adobe granted for the user in the purchase of their software.

I think that Apple owning both the deployment OS and the licensed IP is confusing people's understanding of what is essentially a very straightforward concept. I also think lost in the crossfire is the understanding that Apple has lost a lot of patent lawsuits over the years that require them to pay unit and use costs on key pieces of software IP. So even if they decide to give away access to it to developers for free under certain circumstance it does not change their upstream obligations to the entities they have licensing obligations to.
The biggest confusion people seem to make as in your case is working from the assumption that Apple have a right to monetize or license APIs. Apple might own IP, but that doesn’t translate to APIs. There’s nothing legally preventing a developer from developing an app, deploying it and the moment it’s installed on an iOS device they intercommunicate with the APIs in the Os without ever using a single line of code from Apple precent in the application itself.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Samplasion
if the App Store has been bad for games how come there are so many available there AND as you said most revenue in app store is from games...
Oh, I don't deny that games on the App Store have been extremely profitable for some developers and Apple. When I say it's bad for gaming, I mean that it's bad for people who play games, because most of the profit has come from games with pay-to-win and gambling mechanics. There is some of that in PC gaming, but it's a much bigger chunk of the mobile gaming market.

To Apple's credit, at least they are trying something different with Apple Arcade.

I'd think it would be better if Apple didn't allow in-app purchases in games, or maybe just a very small number of purchases of non-consumable content (no paying real money for in-game currency).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sophisticatednut
Any service or product charged for is by definition ‘unfair‘ and ‘anti-competitive‘. To Apple, the developer gets more value out of iOS, hence the cost is higher than it is for macOS. These are simple, basic market principles at work.

You also have to be careful with enacting price regulations because of a) unfair/unreasonable restraint on trade and b) all prices going up rather than all prices going down. If Apple were forced to charge the same price for use of its APIs then they’d simply start charging a CTF for macOS.

Imagine a world where every product/service created and sold had to be sold at the same price, all of the time, everywhere? No company would be able to compete on price, there’d be no discounts anywhere, thousands of companies would go out of business because they’d no longer be able to incentivise customers to patronise them.
That sounds perfect, apple can’t have their cake and eat it. Ether an IP is licensed or it’s not.

And we all know MacOS would crash and burn if they did that. Not that Apple can ever enforce it. Just as Apple have enforced zero cases on the jailbreaking community for 16 years.

Now we wait patiently for an explanation why the jailbreaking community doesn’t need to pay a single penny for using apples “IP” while other does it for arbitrary reasons
 
It's almost like there are external devices and controllers for things such as emulators, code editors and other pro software...
And tiny screens … oh why not plug in a 15” USBC monitor and Bluetooth keyboard and a mouse.

Or just use a regular laptop instead.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: treacher
Oh, I don't deny that games on the App Store have been extremely profitable for some developers and Apple. When I say it's bad for gaming, I mean that it's bad for people who play games, because most of the profit has come from games with pay-to-win and gambling mechanics. There is some of that in PC gaming, but it's a much bigger chunk of the mobile gaming market.

To Apple's credit, at least they are trying something different with Apple Arcade.

I'd think it would be better if Apple didn't allow in-app purchases in games, or maybe just a very small number of purchases of non-consumable content (no paying real money for in-game currency).
Why should it be up to Apple to stop in app purchases? The app dev can code it so it doesn’t happen. Not Apple. It’s a business decision of the coder not the OS.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: treacher
Why should it be up to Apple to stop in app purchases? The app dev can code it so it doesn’t happen. Not Apple. It’s a business decision of the coder not the OS.
It is exactly Apple who have encouraged such practices. You aren’t allowed to use anything else but the exact code Apple provides for IAP. You aren’t allowed for arbitrary restrictions to use anything else that is available in millions of iOS apps.

You can’t use Apple Pay, PayPal, direct card payments, BankID, Klarna, mobile carrier payments, sms payments, mail in payments, QR payments, write in code payments, prepaid card payments etc etc.

The ONLY way for some inexplicable reason is the exclusive use of the code Apple have written is the single StoreKit strings connected to iTunes billing. Because Apple want to collect their 30% fee for zero Labour provided by only allowing them to use the actual code they spend their time on.

Just how the Steam app allows digital purchases of goods that can now be remote played on the device at 0% fee, or Amazon allows the purchase of digital and physical purchases, or Uber and DoorDash provide goods with the help of Apple and customers being provided with the help of Apples infrastructure they can choose to use IAP or their own solutions.

100% of apps use exactly the same amount of resources and code for each user who access their application with the help of loans the AppStore infrastructure, but they aren’t paying the fees for the services
 
Mobile apps have become too big a business and too important for people’s lives to let the developers of mobile OS reign and charge as they please.
The alternative is for Apple to charge for developer tools and a per-copy license fee like the industry used to do, which I would hate to see. Those are Apple's tools and Apple's runtime, and while we can argue about how much they should charge there should be no doubt that they have the right to charge something.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wbeasley
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.