Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Sorry, I did mean in terms of reads. :eek:

Meh... It's 3AM here. :D :p

Yeah... me too. I got it backwards and had to edit the message. :(


LOL... we'll get it right!! By gum! :D

I was also pleasantly surprised by RAID0's average seek latency:

Code:
+---------------------+---------------+
| Blocksize           |  Avg Latency  |
+---------------------+---------------+
  4 K        Seq Read     0.019 ms    
          Random Read     0.024 ms     
            Seq Write     0.024 ms    
         Random Write     0.409 ms  
  Create scratch file     0.112 ms     
  8 K        Seq Read     0.025 ms    
          Random Read     0.030 ms    
            Seq Write     0.033 ms    
         Random Write     1.044 ms  
  Create scratch file     0.129 ms     
  16 K       Seq Read     0.040 ms     
          Random Read     0.039 ms     
            Seq Write     1.531 ms    
         Random Write     4.643 ms  
  Create scratch file     0.055 ms  
  32 K       Seq Read     0.067 ms     
          Random Read     0.065 ms    
            Seq Write     2.420 ms    
         Random Write     4.595 ms    
  Create scratch file     0.189 ms    
  64 K       Seq Read     0.127 ms     
          Random Read     0.119 ms   
            Seq Write     1.603 ms    
         Random Write     4.974 ms   
  Create scratch file     0.382 ms     
  128 K      Seq Read     0.251 ms     
          Random Read     0.235 ms     
            Seq Write     2.881 ms   
         Random Write     5.530 ms   
  Create scratch file     0.699 ms   
  256 K      Seq Read     0.519 ms     
          Random Read     0.468 ms     
            Seq Write     6.210 ms     
         Random Write     8.436 ms  
  Create scratch file     1.242 ms   
+-------------------------------------+

Not too shabby considering that the manufacture specs these drives in single operation at 16ms. :D
 
@Tesselator

how's the overall performance and snappiness on your raid setup? How long does it take you to boot OSX, and how long does it take you to open photoshop on a freshly booted machine?
 
So in conclusion I re-stress my original point that SSD is certainly not by any stretch of the imagination (no matter how active YOURS may be) the best upgrade one can perform on their MacPro.

Not much of a conclusion since you don't have any experience or actual test data to base that conclusion on.
 
I'd rather shell out a little extra for a RAID 01 to keep all my data secure and not have to go out buying an extra drive for backup. (double win! :D)

Hello,

I've pointed this out elsewhere (and many others also have): a RAID1 is NOT a back-up solution. It's a mirror.

It will only protect you like a back-up in case of disk failure.

A true back-up will also protect you in case of data corruption (which a mirror will immediately copy over), accidental-erroneous deletion (during which a mirror will immediately delete the file on the other drive) and malicious deletion (someone willfully destroying your data).

An offsite back-up (either a DVD, HDD or remote web-accessed) will also protect you from really bad events: fire, theft, water dmg, electrical overload...

Also if you're on a PC, just to illustrate the differences between a mirror and a back-up even more, a disconnected back-up will also protect you against a virus.

Remember: a mirror (like a RAID1 or RAID01) will immediately copy over anything bad that happens to one of the drives. Anything. That is not a back-up solution at all. (Except in the case of one drive failure, of course.)

Loa

P.S. Not as important a point, but if you're planning to mirror a three disk RAID0 (make it a RAID01), you'll need to buy THREE disks. How does that save you from buying a single big disk for a regular back-up?
 
@Tesselator

how's the overall performance and snappiness on your raid setup? How long does it take you to boot OSX, and how long does it take you to open photoshop on a freshly booted machine?

I just timed those two fro you:

From gray Blanket to desktop interaction 30.13 seconds. But I have a lot of BG apps loading too. Maybe 20 or 30. I bet I could shave 15 or 20 seconds off that if I killed them or started up while holding down the shift key. At least when I first added a 3-drive maxtor RAID0 to 10.4.x my boot time was 12 seconds. I assume 10.5.7 could do that too???

PS Extended CS4 loaded (after the restart) in 11.52 seconds but again I have a buttload of plugins. I count 14 extra sub-menus in the Filters menu each with between 2 and 10 items each. And another 44 added items in the File -> Scripts sub-menu.

How "snappy" is it? I dunno how to quantify that but when I added my first 3-drive RAID0 of Maxtor MaxLine III 7V300F0 drives (based on articles that said it was the best in RAID performer) I was pretty shocked at the difference coming from the 250GB WD Black that the 2006 2.66 system came with. Then when I changed over to these HD154UI Samsungs I was again taken with the speed improvement. So that's like two levels of wowedness. :p I guess the feeling is identical to an SSD. I'm not sure what the times are for SSD though and I think different SSDs are very different one from another right?

Here's how I felt when I first added the 300GB X 3 Maxline III RAID0 to my system if you're interested: http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=3962400&#3962400

LOL
 
Yes that's the same thing I'm saying.

So you're saying RAID0 isn't an option for you then? Because it out performs SSD and is the same $300. It offers the same "impact" as you put it on apps and nearly as much on the OS.

RAID0 is an option... I'm running two SSD's in RAID0 for my OS/Apps.

I also ran 4 Raptors in RAID0 on an Areca 1210 RAID card in my last Core2Quad and storage performance was a slug in comparison to my current setup... and that setup cost me a LOT more at the time.

And if you're like me then 80GB is not enough for OS and apps. You would need at least two bringing it up to $600 (and aren't they really $350 each? So that would make it $700 for 2). Actually I would need 300GB and even that would be running at near 100% capacity not leaving room for any sizable project data. For me to be able to work with only two 80Gig drives I would have to keep way too much data segregated on slow or slower-external space. Then what's the point of the fast drive? Just boot and app loading? So $700 to save 30 seconds to 1 minute a day? Hmmm...

I appreciate your storage requirements... but the cost and small size of the drives, is not sufficient reason to dismiss my and other's claims as to the performance gain. You are arguing that the value is not there. That's fine... I agree that the value is not there for every user. But again, that doesn't justify the argument that the performance is imagined.

I really encourage you to try it.

As I've said, I haven't done any upgrade to any computer that has had the impact on performance this has had. Overclocking my last PC from 2.4GHz to 3.2GHz... doesn't compare. Upgrading the storage on my last PC from Dual RAID0 drives on MB RAID controller to a 4-drive array on an Areca 1210... doesn't compare. Going from 2 to 4GB of RAM (and x86 to x64 OS) on my last PC... doesn't compare. I'm stumped to find an equally noticable performance upgrade.

Nah, not for me. I want fast, and reasonably priced, and large enough to put everything on so that the total system really is speedier. For that I need a minimum of 1TB. And that's if I keep my photo, video, and music libraries off.

Had you started with these comments 4 pages back, we wouldn't have had 2-3 pages of flame wars. It's not for you... that's fine. It is an amazing upgrade for many though.

Incidentally, I have 4TB of storage as well... and it's not all SSD. Since the first 74GB Raptors emerged about 5 years ago (?) I've always had expensive speedy storage for OS/Apps and active project data with slower bigger storage for inactive work, backup, and media library use. There's nothing wrong with having a tiered storage setup. It's sensible.
 
Interesting thread to say the least.

I'll make no bones about it I'm a bonafied SSD fan and my next new Mac will get one.

Currently SSD aren't for people that need huge storage but the added benefit is that they are silicon and therefore follow Moores Law. We're still in the infancy of SSD as a viable storage option. In 5 years I suspect we'll have $300 1TB drives that product 400Mbps speeds quite easily.

It's apparent to many that the mechanical drive will become secondary and even tertiary storage for many.

I'd love to see what vendors like FusionIO and NextIO do with SSD on PCI Express. Once someone delivers a stable bootable solution it's going to be very fun to see how 500Mbps avg performance does or in the case of the IoXtreme how two of the cards work together in RAID.

I'd love to pull the storage off the SATA bus and leverage the 4 bays for 2+ TB drives in the future when I inevitably get a Mac Pro.

It's only going to get better.
 
Anyone have one of the two actually "best" SSD drives they can run xBench on? (OCZ Vertex or Intel X-25M/E) here?

If not, if we can find a test that runs in OSX and Windows, I'll post up data from my OCZ Vertex on my laptop.

Just worried about this: http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.p...k=view&id=270&Itemid=38&limit=1&limitstart=11

"In conclusion, Solid State Drives are excellent products with plenty of performance gains to offer even the most casual computer user. Heading into 2009, there are currently no software tools or benchmarks that synthetically test SSD bandwidth performance with complete accuracy, and very few tools that are reliable enough to use in product reviews. Of the rare few testing tools may still apply, several are technology- or cache-biased while others are simply not suitable for SSDs comparisons. Ultimately, I warn readers to regard SSD reviews with a high degree of caution, and lean towards articles that offer a wide variety of well-know HDD products to use as a baseline comparison.

Beginning immediately, all SSD product reviews will discontinue using HD Tach and PCMark for benchmarking SSD performance, as they report unreliable results which are usually lower than the actual bandwidth. ATTO Disk Benchmark will continue to be utilized to measure and report bandwidth speed, while System Speed Test will report response times, but EVEREST Disk Benchmark will become the primary indicator. This makes our Solid State Drive product reviews seem very limited, but at least they will be reporting reliable performance results. I hope you have enjoyed my article, and appreciate my efforts. This has been a humbling experience for me, in light of the many products I have tested up to this point. "

I can't run any write based EVEREST tests on my drive because it erases information on the disk.
 
Anyone have one of the two actually "best" SSD drives they can run xBench on? (OCZ Vertex or Intel X-25M/E) here?

If not, if we can find a test that runs in OSX and Windows, I'll post up data from my OCZ Vertex on my laptop.

Just worried about this: http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.p...k=view&id=270&Itemid=38&limit=1&limitstart=11



I can't run any write based EVEREST tests on my drive because it erases information on the disk.

Timed results don't lie. That's why I like Anandtech's articles on SSD and storage in general. They run the battery of synthetic tests but then they also time tasks which, IMO, provide more real world results.
 
This is the single read test from EVEREST on my laptop OCZ Vertex. The Vertex is $350 2.5" Indilinx controller 120gb drive.
 

Attachments

  • Picture 1.png
    Picture 1.png
    25.7 KB · Views: 77
Timed results don't lie. That's why I like Anandtech's articles on SSD and storage in general. They run the battery of synthetic tests but then they also time tasks which, IMO, provide more real world results.

Yeah, I'd love to give you guys some numbers, but my SSD is on my Windows box. :) I can tell you Windows 7 boots hella fast on it. lol.
 
Interesting thread to say the least.

I'll make no bones about it I'm a bonafied SSD fan and my next new Mac will get one.

Currently SSD aren't for people that need huge storage but the added benefit is that they are silicon and therefore follow Moores Law. We're still in the infancy of SSD as a viable storage option. In 5 years I suspect we'll have $300 1TB drives that product 400Mbps speeds quite easily.

It's apparent to many that the mechanical drive will become secondary and even tertiary storage for many.

I'd love to see what vendors like FusionIO and NextIO do with SSD on PCI Express. Once someone delivers a stable bootable solution it's going to be very fun to see how 500Mbps avg performance does or in the case of the IoXtreme how two of the cards work together in RAID.

I'd love to pull the storage off the SATA bus and leverage the 4 bays for 2+ TB drives in the future when I inevitably get a Mac Pro.

It's only going to get better.

Is the OCZ Z-Drive not bootable? I was under the impression that it was. Newegg doesn't seem to have it but it can be found from amazon here : http://www.amazon.com/OCZ-Technology-OCZSSDPCIE-1ZDRV1T-Z-Drive-PCI-Express/dp/B00284ABEQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1245342281&sr=8-2

It is very pricey, but hopefully prices will only continue to plummet on SSDs.
 
As an Amazon Associate, MacRumors earns a commission from qualifying purchases made through links in this post.
Thank you for your honesty and accurate depiction as well as taking your time in timing this for us @Tessalator and thanks for the link I'll be reading this after I post this. Indeed the numbers doesn't lie especially when you actually timed it versus the synthetic benchmarks out there.

Though at this point of time, the only SSD that I could probably buy/recommend are intel 25-m and intel x-25-e, others still have problems.

I reckon, the boot time in leopard for a 2 x intel x25-m SSD in raid 0 was around 25secs, though I assume you can get similar boot time speeds, if you could slash off some apps that's loading at startup.

However for photoshop is a different story, boot from cold boot was around 1 second. Though I'm not quite sure if you could achieve this boot time in your config even if you remove all plugins from your photoshop.


nuckinfutz said:
I don't know of any PCI-Express SSD that is bootable yet.

there is, one from japan

image.php


which actually boast a 1TB/sec transfer rate, faster than any SSD sata based configuration.

see links here:

http://vr-zone.com/articles/photofast-g-monster-pcie-ssd-by-mobilemode/6805.html?doc=6805

http://www.tweaktown.com/pressrelea...nster_promise_pci_e_ssd_1000mb_sec/index.html
 
Thank you for your honesty and accurate depiction as well as taking your time in timing this for us @Tessalator and thanks for the link I'll be reading this after I post this. Indeed the numbers doesn't lie especially when you actually timed it versus the synthetic benchmarks out there.

NP.


Though at this point of time, the only SSD that I could probably buy/recommend are intel 25-m and intel x-25-e, others still have problems.

I hear the same.


I reckon, the boot time in leopard for a 2 x intel x25-m SSD in raid 0 was around 25secs, though I assume you can get similar boot time speeds, if you could slash off some apps that's loading at startup.

Yeah. Maybe. ;)


However for photoshop is a different story, boot from cold boot was around 1 second. Though I'm not quite sure if you could achieve this boot time in your config even if you remove all plugins from your photoshop.

WOW! Yeah there's no way I could get that with or without an SSD. My system is a 2006 and application initialization even after it's fully loaded takes 1 or 1.5 seconds. That must be on a 2009 MP @ 2.93 and with a very stripped down version of PS or something. Here I'll put PS in the RAM Disk right now and see how long it takes to load from there:

Hmmm I get almost exactly the same:

3 tries:
12.03 seconds
11.59 seconds
11.57 seconds
Flushed the system cache each time between loads. If I don't flush the system cache it reloads in 6 seconds ± 0.1 seconds.

So the SSD or the RAID is not the bottle neck here. :D These times were from a righteous RAM disk and a 1sec. load time on this system would be impossible no matter what. Unless you mean just to the blue splash screen or something?? That only takes ~1 sec.

Anyway just to remind - on the RAID0 I got 11.52 seconds. :)


there is, one from japan

image.php


which actually boast a 1TB/sec transfer rate, faster than any SSD sata based configuration.

see links here:

http://vr-zone.com/articles/photofast-g-monster-pcie-ssd-by-mobilemode/6805.html?doc=6805

http://www.tweaktown.com/pressrelea...nster_promise_pci_e_ssd_1000mb_sec/index.html

Looks kewl! Available in 1TB capacity too! :)


.
 
what cpu are you you using in your macpro @Tesselator

The 1 second boot up came from a macbook pro.

here's the link of a single intel x25-m in a macbook pro

http://paulstamatiou.com/review-intel-x25-m-80gb-ssd

if you check the ps3 boot time, its around 5 seconds,
Photoshop CS3 takes about ~5 seconds to open and load a 12 megapixel image

If you look closely, photoshop was opened around 2 seconds, and took 3 seconds to open the 12 megapixel image.

Now on a raid configuration, dual intel x25-m, photoshop screams.

Anyway, there are forum posters here who has a dual intel x25-m raid 0 configuration. I remember a forum poster here, Guy Mancuso was his name, prefers his macbook pro setup, and claims it as even faster than his mac pro setup with hdd in raid.

So that's what the SSD hype is right now, insane boot times. I am wondering on your setup, even if it was loaded in ram it takes 11-12 seconds?

You do know that Photoshop CS3 and CS4 have user profiles in both Windows and Leopard. Which means, you have to load these user profiles as well to get a more accurate benchmark
 
what cpu are you you using in your macpro @Tesselator

The 1 second boot up came from a macbook pro.

Yes, it's the machine spec and the way photoshop is configured. The core speed here is 2.66 @1.33 and PS is configured in such a way that it pegs one core at 100% during those 11 seconds. And whatever it's doing to itself it's not multi-threaded. :p


here's the link of a single intel x25-m in a macbook pro

http://paulstamatiou.com/review-intel-x25-m-80gb-ssd

if you check the ps3 boot time, its around 5 seconds,

If you look closely, photoshop was opened around 2 seconds, and took 3 seconds to open the 12 megapixel image.

Mine loads 24MP image instantly. I'm sure it's less than a second... maybe ¾?


Now on a raid configuration, dual intel x25-m, photoshop screams.

Anyway, there are forum posters here who has a dual intel x25-m raid 0 configuration. I remember a forum poster here, Guy Mancuso was his name, prefers his macbook pro setup, and claims it as even faster than his mac pro setup with hdd in raid.

So that's what the SSD hype is right now, insane boot times. I am wondering on your setup, even if it was loaded in ram it takes 11-12 seconds?

Yes.

You do know that Photoshop CS3 and CS4 have user profiles in both Windows and Leopard. Which means, you have to load these user profiles as well to get a more accurate benchmark

Yup, that's the answer right there. Got a URL for it?


---
EDIT:
Loading a decoded 24MP 16bit image into PS: 0.8 sec. (repeated on 5 different images).
Loading a 24MP 15bit camera RAW image into CameraRAW: 2.0 sec. (repeated on 6).
 
1. Can someone who has an SSD describe what it's like? Reading about it, it seems like booting and opening apps and opening files is very fast, and writes are fast, but can get a little choppy or something?

I'd probably get the Intel X-25 which I read is the superior SSD at the moment for apps and OS.

I assume if I bump the spin-down time on the 1TB hard drive to like 1 hour or something, it would stay fairly responsive during use? Seems kind of dumb to have 1 rocket fast HD that's always waiting for the other one to wake up?

2. Any issues putting one of these in a 2008 2.8 8-core? These things work just like regular HDs? Plug them in, format them, install OS?

3. Lastly, agree or disagree... SSD made a solid improvement in overall system response time on a lot of tasks?

I've been running an Intel 160GB SSD as a boot and applications disk in my second optical bay for a few months now. My data is on a RAID 0 of 4 TB seagates--these are 2 years old prior to seagates current reliability issues. Mac Pro 3.2GHz 2008.

I'm very happy with it and may perhaps go to a second SSD and RAID 0 for boot and applications.

I never wait for anything except an older version of Photoshop and MS Office. Anything optimized for Mac and Intel opens with one bounce.

If I hit the wrong icon, it means no waiting to open or close, so I can get on with what I want to do.

Is it worth it? This is a no-brainer. Yes. And the biggest change to computing I've seen since the advent of the hard drive.

I use an old G5 case stuffed full of drives for back up, but now I'm thinking of adding an Areca Raid card so these back up drives can keep up. I can get 1TB/s speeds with just a few SSD's and support up to 24 drives.

It seems modern hard drive have become failure prone. I'm looking forward to the day I toss them out like 5.25" floppies, 3.5" floppies, and Zip drives.
 
@Tesselator

you can easily Google where the photoshop user files are loaded, I really didn't read it from any site, I just realized it when checking the user files, and I know it is loading from the user profile too., check under /Users :D

I know the PS isn't multi-threaded when it opens up, I just want to ask what cpu is your mac pro?

If you can open a 12megapixel in less than 1 second, then you probably should open photoshop in around 2 seconds too. Mind you opening photoshop is not really cpu intensive, the bottle neck really here is the harddisk when it loads.

2.0ghz cpu is more than enough to provide 1TB of transfer rate of the harddisk, also means it can saturate the sata 2 bus.
 
I've been running an Intel 160GB SSD as a boot and applications disk in my second optical bay for a few months now. My data is on a RAID 0 of 4 TB seagates--these are 2 years old prior to seagates current reliability issues. Mac Pro 3.2GHz 2008.

I'm very happy with it and may perhaps go to a second SSD and RAID 0 for boot and applications.
The larger capacity versions don't suffer quite as badly from the write cycle limitation, as there's more cell for wear leveling usage. Provided it's not full, and the more unused space the better. ;) :D

RAID 0 helps even further. :) Though depending on one's usage patterns, it may not matter that much (read intensive, not write). So I definitely like the performance data I've seen in OS/apps (boot disk), as it's read usage is usually far higher than write. :)

Is it worth it? This is a no-brainer. Yes. And the biggest change to computing I've seen since the advent of the hard drive.

I use an old G5 case stuffed full of drives for back up, but now I'm thinking of adding an Areca Raid card so these back up drives can keep up. I can get 1TB/s speeds with just a few SSD's and support up to 24 drives.
Unfortunately, the smallish capacity and current pricing of SSD makes this hard for some, if not most users. :( For now. ;) :p
It seems modern hard drive have become failure prone. I'm looking forward to the day I toss them out like 5.25" floppies, 3.5" floppies, and Zip drives.
The current crop of mechanical drives over the last couple of years does seem to have gotten worse, but keep in mind this is mostly consumer models that I've noticed the issues on.

Enterprise drives haven't suffered anywhere near as much, though Seagate's issues actually extended to their ES.2's. Once the cost drops on SSD, capacity increases, and it matures (OS support,...), I'd expect them to replace mechanical drives. But we're not quite there yet. :eek: :p
 
@Tesselator

you can easily Google where the photoshop user files are loaded, I really didn't read it from any site, I just realized it when checking the user files, and I know it is loading from the user profile too., check under /Users :D

No, there would need to be a step guide with specific files and mods. PS doesn't work like that - there's way too many settings that are application-local and user independent.

I know the PS isn't multi-threaded when it opens up, I just want to ask what cpu is your mac pro?

If you can open a 12megapixel in less than 1 second, then you probably should open photoshop in around 2 seconds too. Mind you opening photoshop is not really cpu intensive, the bottle neck really here is the harddisk when it loads.

Unless it's configured for even light professional work and then it does. In my case approximately between 9 and 11 seconds of 100% processor time @ 2.66. As a brief example something like 1500 brushes in the brush pallet - many large custom animatable ones. :) Nearly 400 megabytes of plugins - all of which it initializes during start-up, custom menu initializing which also use folder scanning and plug-ing initializing during startup, etc. etc. there's more. :)

2.0ghz cpu is more than enough to provide 1TB of transfer rate of the harddisk, also means it can saturate the sata 2 bus.

Impossible for me. :) Also this doesn't sound like a fun test. I use PS for work sometimes and need it sitting perfect condition. Raping it doesn't sound like something I personally would be motivated to do.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.