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The last season was my least favorite as it felt really rushed and thin and went to a really dark place which was not characteristic of ST (same thing for DS9 for that matter)

It's taken me time to get there, but I've ultimately come to agree with Roddenberry's central principle for the show, which is his very optimistic, even utopian vision for the future or humanity. That's what makes it work for me, and it remains a rare premise for sci-fi. But that's a huge challenge for writers, who need jeopardy, conflict, and tragedy to maintain interest in the story and to make it relatable. On the TNG Blu-Ray extras the writers constantly talk about this tension between the demands of writing a show people actually want to watch and maintaining Roddenberry's vision.

You can still have darkness in this imagined world, but it needs to be conceptualized as bad things happening in a universe that is, on balance, good. Not cartoonishly good, but always hopeful. Many of humanity's major problems have been mostly solved. I think DS9 stays just on the right side of this. TNG is much more positive (probably the most positive Trek?) but has some pretty dark moments. Other shows have not been so successful at doing 'dark' Trek, or fall into more stereotypical Hollywood movie tropes that don't feel like Trek (the reboot movie series is like that for me).

These days entertainment seems to have a particular talent for wallowing in negativity. We suspect anything portrayed in a feel-good way to be some kind of advertisement or propaganda, or just lightweight. And with good reason! But, ultimately, I want something I can watch that allows me to let down my guard and isn't some kind of satire or cynically dystopian commentary. There is plenty of good (and a lot of bad) sci fi that does the latter, but Roddenberry's approach remains quite rare.
 
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The last season (of ENT) was my least favorite as it felt really rushed and thin and went to a really dark place which was not characteristic of ST (same thing for DS9 for that matter) I mean they had to re-write and rush into a 4th season finale instead of getting the planned on 7 - that really messed with everything IMO. I think had they been left alone to continue the franchise, there could have been a lot of neat & interesting story and continued character development for ENT.

Manny Coto, IMO, saved the show with his becoming show runner in S4. But I have heard part of the deal to get Berman and Braga to walk away was that the series would not be renewed for a fifth season regardless of how well S4 did in the ratings. B&B also got the last laugh with the absolutely atrocious finale they wrote. They made sure to give the middle finger to the fans who clamored for them being removed from the franchise.
 
Enterprise....... The moment they whipped out the German Wehrmacht uniforms, I was done....
Are you talking about the desert uniforms, like the ones used in Desert Crossing episode? I would have never associated those with the German Wehrmacht.
 
Are you talking about the desert uniforms, like the ones used in Desert Crossing episode? I would have never associated those with the German Wehrmacht.
He is probably referring to the 2 parter, Storm Front, where aliens helped out the Third Reich.
latest
 
He is probably referring to the 2 parter, Storm Front, where aliens helped out the Third Reich.
latest
Oh, I thought it was an ongoing issue with the ENT star fleet uniforms or something like that. So, I am still not sure what would turn someone off to the entire series about the use of German Wehrmacht uniforms in a Sci-fi episode involving time travel to an altered 1944 earth where the Nazi have conquered the eastern US. I mean similar premise have been used before, such as the Man in the High Castle. I am not saying it was a great episode, just not sure what the issue is with the uniforms. Maybe I am taking the post too literally.
 
To be fair, we heard much the same with Deep Space Nine. It wasn't on a starship. The crew never went anywhere in the first two seasons. The Cardassian occupation of Bajor was too uncomfortable a reminder of occupied genocides of Earth's history. And then with the Dominion War Arc we had whole fleets and planets being destroyed with billions dead and the introduction of Section 31, the absolute antithesis of what we were told Starfleet and the Federation stood for. Of course, one of the more well-regarded episodes of Star Trek - "In the Pale Moonlight" - has Sisko taking a page right out of S31's playbook, so...




Indeed. And with Alex Kurtzman's current contract soon to expire there are rumors the new owners of Paramount (Skydance) are not going to renew it. That being said, who do they get to replace him?

The third season of "Picard" made the Nielson Streaming Top 10 under Terry Matalas, but he's now working with Disney+ and Netflix so even if Skydance was interested in making "Star Trek: Legacy" a thing, it might not be possible for years (or it would be made without significant input from Matalas which means it might not be what fans expect).
DS9 got a ton of flack for not feeling like traditional Trek at the time, especially because of its serialized nature. Ironically that was something that turned out to have been rather ahead of its time with the nature of streaming TV these days!

IMHO, the difference in the darker tone of DS9 verses shows like Disco is that DS9 as the show was written—as well as its characters—seemed quite aware that these darker elements are antithetical to the Federation on a kind of meta level. Whereas I feel like newer shows like Disco almost embrace it. The worst offender in this instance was Star Trek Into Darkness which makes the Federation into some sort of evil war obsessed cult!

It may very well be the case that newer Trek shows come to shake their “red headed stepchild” reputation DS9 had in time, but right now I just don’t see it.
 
DS9 got a ton of flack for not feeling like traditional Trek at the time, especially because of its serialized nature. Ironically that was something that turned out to have been rather ahead of its time with the nature of streaming TV these days!

I would agree. Also, these days I think the situation has reversed - there is so much serialized TV right now that the episodic / ship-in-a-bottle style of storytelling is a bit of a lost art. But that is what made TNG great - one week you get a comedy episode, then next week a character-driven drama, then a mystery, then a romance, then exploration, then a tech-focused one....when they did it right it made for great variety.

I like both styles, but these days the serial format is dominant.

IMHO, the difference in the darker tone of DS9 verses shows like Disco is that DS9 as the show was written—as well as its characters—seemed quite aware that these darker elements are antithetical to the Federation on a kind of meta level. Whereas I feel like newer shows like Disco almost embrace it. The worst offender in this instance was Star Trek Into Darkness which makes the Federation into some sort of evil war obsessed cult!

Yep. As I mentioned previously, bad things happening in a good universe. The Federation made mistakes, and individuals could be corrupted - but the exceptions proved the rule that their core principles were the right ones. These days screenwriters embrace dark elements to the point of nihilism - which is antithetical to the Roddenberry Trek universe. Even the Borg weren't nihilists!
 
Yep. As I mentioned previously, bad things happening in a good universe. The Federation made mistakes, and individuals could be corrupted - but the exceptions proved the rule that their core principles were the right ones. These days screenwriters embrace dark elements to the point of nihilism - which is antithetical to the Roddenberry Trek universe. Even the Borg weren't nihilists!
Yeah that's the problem I had with Picard 1-2 and Disc. They didn't even try to identify with Star Trek other than the badge, uniform, and ... ships. It would have maybe worked if they called it Star Journeys or whatever...

It was as if... they went to the holodeck and threw out all Star Trek lore and tried to re-write the characters and made it an alternate timeline and said ok - let's do this.

Strongly believe that if I showed Captain Picard of TNG the Picard version of himself in Picard Season 1 - 2 he would gasp in horror. TNG episode : Tapestry - Picard was given a second chance to be more safe, less assertive, less in command and he would rather die than do that.

Disc... I probably already have a long winded complaint on this, in this very thread, but there was more Klingon spoken than ALL the Star Trek I've ever watched in 1 episode and ... they weren't Klingon. Of course they're racist... and ... the singing? Don't get me started on a first officer mutiny's after 5 supposed loyal years because oh no, we can't assume Klingons will act like Klingons! Great if it was Battlestar Galactica or any of the other 90s sci fi - but it isn't Trek lol.

I also grew up a very big fan of Spock, Data, and the Borg. It was pretty offensive what I saw with Data and the Borg in Picard. lol.

Yeah I think you guys are right - TLDR is - I like the optimism, the idea that we moved past a lot of our problems (but not all but we're trying!), and the good usually wins of Roddenberry vs whatever the hell passes for Trek today (doesn't even try to be Trek in my mind). Ok sure, be negative, fine ... BUT hold true to canon and past characters - that would have been at least watchable for me.
 
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Admittedly, I think Roddenberry took the optimism thing too far when he had total creative control. He needed to be leavened by other writers and producers. But it works as the high-level tone for the franchise. When a show strays too far from it, it doesn't feel 'right' as Trek.
 
DS9 got a ton of flack for not feeling like traditional Trek at the time, especially because of its serialized nature. Ironically that was something that turned out to have been rather ahead of its time with the nature of streaming TV these days!

IMHO, the difference in the darker tone of DS9 verses shows like Disco is that DS9 as the show was written—as well as its characters—seemed quite aware that these darker elements are antithetical to the Federation on a kind of meta level. Whereas I feel like newer shows like Disco almost embrace it. The worst offender in this instance was Star Trek Into Darkness which makes the Federation into some sort of evil war obsessed cult!

It may very well be the case that newer Trek shows come to shake their “red headed stepchild” reputation DS9 had in time, but right now I just don’t see it.
My preferences for series definitely lie more on the episodic side of things although, I think my preference is a blend of both - similar to what X-Files did. They had episodic stories inside of a a bigger, deeper story & character arc.

“Bad” elements that go against the prime directive & question one’s ethical stance have been around for a while now (like TNGs “measure of a Man” or “Pen Pals” … or the TNG movie “Insurrection”) but Into Darkness really took that to the extreme. I mean, the crew and Captain Kirk were there to say no this isn’t right but Kirk choosing the Lesser of two evils in Kahn to defeat Marcus in the ship Kahn was forced to design by Marcus when pulled out of stasis really dove into the manipulative grit and grime of humanity in a way that didn’t feel very Trek to me. It really made you question who was the bad guy and empathize with a character who instigated a war that killed 30 million+ and who in their own right was an abject sociopathic monster.
 
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Admittedly, I think Roddenberry took the optimism thing too far when he had total creative control. He needed to be leavened by other writers and producers. But it works as the high-level tone for the franchise. When a show strays too far from it, it doesn't feel 'right' as Trek.
I definitely agree with this. His strict adherence to “no conflict among the human characters” really tied the hands of the writers in season one and much of season two. Unfortunately for him TNG actually got a lot better in season three, when he took more of a back seat with the creative control.
 
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Looks like Paramount is making another Star Trek show, the negatives far outweight the positives
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Doesn't look like my type of Star Trek, but then I'm an old curmudgeon and this show seems to be aimed at a different demographic then the fans of TOS/TNG/DS9/etc
This trailer gives me CW vibes. If thats what they where aiming for then its a success. Honestly would be surprised if it makes it past season one from that trailer.
 
Yeah that's the problem I had with Picard 1-2 and Disc. They didn't even try to identify with Star Trek other than the badge, uniform, and ... ships. It would have maybe worked if they called it Star Journeys or whatever...

It was as if... they went to the holodeck and threw out all Star Trek lore and tried to re-write the characters and made it an alternate timeline and said ok - let's do this.

Strongly believe that if I showed Captain Picard of TNG the Picard version of himself in Picard Season 1 - 2 he would gasp in horror. TNG episode : Tapestry - Picard was given a second chance to be more safe, less assertive, less in command and he would rather die than do that.

Disc... I probably already have a long winded complaint on this, in this very thread, but there was more Klingon spoken than ALL the Star Trek I've ever watched in 1 episode and ... they weren't Klingon. Of course they're racist... and ... the singing? Don't get me started on a first officer mutiny's after 5 supposed loyal years because oh no, we can't assume Klingons will act like Klingons! Great if it was Battlestar Galactica or any of the other 90s sci fi - but it isn't Trek lol.

I also grew up a very big fan of Spock, Data, and the Borg. It was pretty offensive what I saw with Data and the Borg in Picard. lol.

Yeah I think you guys are right - TLDR is - I like the optimism, the idea that we moved past a lot of our problems (but not all but we're trying!), and the good usually wins of Roddenberry vs whatever the hell passes for Trek today (doesn't even try to be Trek in my mind). Ok sure, be negative, fine ... BUT hold true to canon and past characters - that would have been at least watchable for me.
It was quite shocking to me how weak and ineffectual Picard felt in S1-2 of Picard. When he sits down in the captain’s chair of the Enterprise-D at the end of season 3 and says “engage!” Not only did I get chills, but I felt like he finally got his balls back.

I get that they were trying to go for the whole “broken and world-weary” trope we’ve seen in so much of modern story telling, but I just don’t think it works with such a stoic character. This is a man who barely let the Borg break him, after all.

Of course I can give a few passes of emotional breaks like the Inner Light, or when Robert dies in Generations, but for him to let the destruction of Romulus affect him the way it does in Picard doesn’t seem to jibe with the character at all. Perhaps there were elements of the story I missed, since at the end of the day I couldn’t really get into Seasons 1-2 of Picard very deeply.

Edited because there is context where Picard does have moments of emotion in the earlier shows’ and movies’ storytelling.
 
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DS9 got a ton of flack for not feeling like traditional Trek at the time, especially because of its serialized nature. Ironically that was something that turned out to have been rather ahead of its time with the nature of streaming TV these days!
I can forgive them that because DS9 salvaged the Ferengi. TNG Ferengi were a failed species that didn't live up to the billing as the big bad to replace the TOS Klingons.
IMHO, the difference in the darker tone of DS9 verses shows like Disco is that DS9 as the show was written—as well as its characters—seemed quite aware that these darker elements are antithetical to the Federation on a kind of meta level.
The characters was the best thing about DS9. No cookie cutter characters. No moustache twirling from Dukat, although I thought he looked better with the facial hair. No knight in shining armor heroes. Dukat, the reviled leader of the Bajoran occupation, was affiable and charming. Well, I liked him.😅 Ben Sisko, the paragon of Federation ethics and Bajoran virtue, poisoned an entire planet (For the Uniform) and aided in the assassination of a Romulan senator (In the Pale Moonlight).😳 What can you say about Garak? The man is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.🤫 Even minor characters whose only purpose is a background character has a rich backstory. Morn is da man!😎

The bad guys didn't do things just to be evil. They had a reason and most of the time I thought, "He's got a point."🤔 There really wasn't a bad guy vs good guy, no good vs evil. It was my side vs their side. The only exception was Vedek/Kai Winn. She was evil evil. Nurse Ratched evil.😉
 
I can forgive them that because DS9 salvaged the Ferengi. TNG Ferengi were a failed species that didn't live up to the billing as the big bad to replace the TOS Klingons.

The characters was the best thing about DS9. No cookie cutter characters. No moustache twirling from Dukat, although I thought he looked better with the facial hair. No knight in shining armor heroes. Dukat, the reviled leader of the Bajoran occupation, was affiable and charming. Well, I liked him.😅 Ben Sisko, the paragon of Federation ethics and Bajoran virtue, poisoned an entire planet (For the Uniform) and aided in the assassination of a Romulan senator (In the Pale Moonlight).😳 What can you say about Garak? The man is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.🤫 Even minor characters whose only purpose is a background character has a rich backstory. Morn is da man!😎

The bad guys didn't do things just to be evil. They had a reason and most of the time I thought, "He's got a point."🤔 There really wasn't a bad guy vs good guy, no good vs evil. It was my side vs their side. The only exception was Vedek/Kai Winn. She was evil evil. Nurse Ratched evil.😉
Garak, Quark, Dukat, Kai Winn ... AMAZING characters. Morn... wins all.
 
This trailer gives me CW vibes. If thats what they where aiming for then its a success. Honestly would be surprised if it makes it past season one from that trailer.

I don't want another teen angst series. We've had so much of that in shows and other media. I also hope they actually use Starfleet Academy as a focal point. One of the things I didn't like about Wednesday Season 2 was Nevermore Academy was kind of a non-factor.
 
I can forgive them that because DS9 salvaged the Ferengi. TNG Ferengi were a failed species that didn't live up to the billing as the big bad to replace the TOS Klingons.

The characters was the best thing about DS9. No cookie cutter characters. No moustache twirling from Dukat, although I thought he looked better with the facial hair. No knight in shining armor heroes. Dukat, the reviled leader of the Bajoran occupation, was affiable and charming. Well, I liked him.😅 Ben Sisko, the paragon of Federation ethics and Bajoran virtue, poisoned an entire planet (For the Uniform) and aided in the assassination of a Romulan senator (In the Pale Moonlight).😳 What can you say about Garak? The man is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.🤫 Even minor characters whose only purpose is a background character has a rich backstory. Morn is da man!😎

The bad guys didn't do things just to be evil. They had a reason and most of the time I thought, "He's got a point."🤔 There really wasn't a bad guy vs good guy, no good vs evil. It was my side vs their side. The only exception was Vedek/Kai Winn. She was evil evil. Nurse Ratched evil.😉
Im not sure they tried to make the Ferengi to be the big bad guys. Other than the Borg there was no real bad villain, the Romulans were very interesting always in the shadows but not doing a direct confrontation. We need to remember TNG mirrored the world at the time, we where in a Cold War, so things where not direct, thats where the Romulans fit the bill.

Which leads me to one of my favorite TNG episodes, The Defector. It's a fantastic episode. The writing, the character arch, the tension, the misdirection, and the ending, all make it a memorable one.
IMG_0139.jpeg
 
Im not sure they tried to make the Ferengi to be the big bad guys. Other than the Borg there was no real bad villain, the Romulans were very interesting always in the shadows but not doing a direct confrontation. We need to remember TNG mirrored the world at the time, we where in a Cold War, so things where not direct, thats where the Romulans fit the bill.

Which leads me to one of my favorite TNG episodes, The Defector. It's a fantastic episode. The writing, the character arch, the tension, the misdirection, and the ending, all make it a memorable one.
I do believe Roddenberry’s intent was to make the Ferengi a much more menacing species and they were supposed to be a recurring foil for the Enterprise, maybe even a true villain. But they just came off as goofy and played for laughs. Very fortunate that DS9 fleshed them out into real characters.

I agree that if you could point to a supposed villain in TNG, the Romulans would fit the bill.
 
I love shows like Silo, Severance, and The Expanse and none of the new Star Treks even approach the quality of those series. I really wish they did, but I don't think the Kurtzman era is capable of that. It's the main reason why I would love to see someone else (Tony Gilroy) take over the franchise. It needs a new voice and something that could make Trek relavent to the 2025 landscape of quality programming.
 
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ENT HAS generated the all-time longest running (still running) Trek debate amongst my Trekkie friends...I don't even remember who started it, it was so long ago, but it began with the assertion that T'pol, as a Vulcan, would never have gotten bolt-ons. Body modification aimed purely at enhancing physical attractiveness is fundamentally illogical. Discuss.
It's obvious to me. :) You see, by making her super attractive, that allowed her to manipulate the patriarchal alien species that are the great majority of worlds in the Star Trek Universe! She was actually part of Vulcan Intelligence - we just didn't know it.
 
It's obvious to me. :) You see, by making her super attractive, that allowed her to manipulate the patriarchal alien species that are the great majority of worlds in the Star Trek Universe! She was actually part of Vulcan Intelligence - we just didn't know it.
Yes, that is more or less one of the major threads of the argument.
 
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It's obvious to me. :) You see, by making her super attractive, that allowed her to manipulate the patriarchal alien species that are the great majority of worlds in the Star Trek Universe! She was actually part of Vulcan Intelligence - we just didn't know it.
It doesn't make sense for the High Command to assign her to an rinky-dink ship of a minor galactic species. That 💩 assignment is reserved for a official caught in pon farr with the First Minister's wife.😉 T'Pol should have been part of the diplomatic party to a major player like the Klingons or Romulans. You don't use a grade A honeypot on insignificant scrubs. Bat those eyelashes at a ranking Tal Shiar operative.😘
 
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There is no doubt that ENT took full advantage of Jolene Blaylock’s incredible beauty. She was a model before starting her acting career. That said, she took the role seriously and had an act coach on set. I think she did a great job. It isn’t easy to play a Vulcan. Too serious and you get a dull robotic performance. Too animated and you lose the logic culture. I thought the character was interesting and entertaining. And yes yes “well developed”! 😁
 
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