There's only fringe cases that demand 6, 8 or 12 cores and therefore, I see less demand for Mac Pro's for now. At least until software takes another quantum leap in saturating existing hardware.
Discontinuing the Mac Pro is basically audio and video professionals to switch over to PCs. Apple doesnt want that.
Composers who use large orchestral sample libraries habitually bring a maxed out MacPro to its knees without much effort. There is quite a bit of evidence out there indicating that similarly spec'd Win7 machines handle this much better and at lower latencies to boot.
The issue could be with OSX, although it might just as well be that apps are primarily developed for Windows and ported to OSX as an afterthought.
Demand for a MacPro is declining not just because more professionals can make do with an iMac, but because people like me are beginning to realize that a bespoke Win7 workstation might just be a better fit for the majority of their software.
And is that market getting bigger or smaller? I'd wager that computers will be more important in the future than they are now. If professionals dont use macs, they dont see the appeal of syncing mobile devices with their workstations.They would not want that, but they would not be overly concerned either. The pro market is the smallest segment with the highest demands. Not a very interesting prospect when you sell 42 million iPhones in three months and have iPads on back order until the next end of the world.
Interesting. Seems like a fault in the software to me. CoreAudio is pretty unique, as far as an audio API for pros, not much like it exists on Windows. The latencies are much lower than what is available on Windows.
OS X has always had really good audio playback support for pros actually. Shame that the software isn't delivering audio the CoreAudio fast enough.
The Mac Pro makes up probably less than 1/1000 of all Apple sales. It is becoming less than a side project for Apple, I have never even seen a Mac Pro sold at an Apple Store. Nobody seems interested.
10 years ago, the desktop tower was seen as an important piece of equipment that every home, business, and individual should have...now everything that could be accomplished on the desktop can be done on one of these i7 or quad-core portables, or even an iPad.
I see Apple maybe giving the Mac Pro one or two more updates and then dropping the line, just like they did with the XServe. Even Steve said they weren't selling well, and it was just a small fractional portion of all Apple sales. The Mac Pro has taken a backstage position in the mobile-based lineup of iPhones, iPads and notebooks that Apple is pushing out like candy for all the consumers to gobble up.
Apple keeps around tons of products for specific groups. Even the Macbook wasn't axed completely, it's still around specifically for education.
And if Apple drops the Mac Pro, what will they sell for OS X Server?
I don't think this was ever true on the Mac side. 10 years ago? 2001. The iMac was dominating. 1998 the iMac was the best selling Mac Apple had. Before that, the 5X00 and Performa lines of all in ones were very popular, along with non tower desktops. Before that, the Mac SE and Mac Classic were king. When is this Mac tower heyday you're speaking of?
Again, I don't follow the logic here. Products are cut on profit, not volume.
This is the BMW argument again. Should BMW cut it's least selling cars? It doesn't make sense. Especially given that the Mac Pro has the highest margins out of any Macs.
If you look at it by volume, sure, the Mac Pro is not that much. By profit? The Mac Pro is probably a huge chunk of the Mac profits.
Again, look at profit share. Not volume share. One Mac Pro is 10 iMacs in profit (roughly).
On the PC side, towers were dominating (think HP, Compaq, etc)....also the PowerMacs were very popular (much more than the Mac Pros are today). Basically my point was that prior to the iMac, a CPU-box desktop computer was seen as the commonplace home and business machine if you wanted a fast computer to surf the Internet and manage your files.
Exactly, and the Mac Pro is not a profit-windfall for Apple like iPhone and iPad. Apple sells the 32GB iPhone for $799, and it costs them about $320 to produce, that means they are making more than twice their cost-to-produce on each sale. Now multiply that by the 40 million or so iPhones they sold last quarter...you get my point? The Mac Pro is very expensive for Apple to produce (mainly the parts -- processor, graphics card, main board, etc), and I can guarantee you that Apple does not make a 200% profit on each Mac Pro sale. And again, the Mac Pro makes up less than 0.01% of all of Apple's sales, and likely less than one out of every two hundred Macs sold. It is extremely small, the market, and the amount they sell. The profits on Mac Pro are far from huge. This alone was the reason they axed XServe, not because they had problems with the platform, but simply because they weren't selling. iPhone, iPad, and the MacBook Pros (and Airs) are the staple sellers for Apple right now, and this is where their focus is.
This is Apple we are talking about, not a car company. All of BMW caters to is high-dollar spenders and the elite that can afford them. You see, Apple is targeting the average consumer with the iPhone and the iPad.
Yes, as of now they still offer them, but the costs of keeping the production lines going, and all the signs from Apple's moves regarding the Pro market lately (Think XServe, OS X Server, FinalCut X) leave me to think that the Mac Pro does not have much time left before it is considered EOL.
Wrong. Look at the numbers. 40 million iPhone and 20 million iPads at 200% profit per sale? And Mac Pro, maybe 75,000 units at 30% profit per sale.
Very expensive to produce...requires separate fabrication facilities, special Intel processors, special custom-made boards and parts. It is not windfall profit for Apple by ANY means!
Steve Jobs's mission is to kill the PC.
How does the MAcPro fit in with that vision?
It doesn't.
This is how I see it as well.To me the significant changes are:
- 4 Hyperthreaded cores available on laptops, mini's and iMacs means that the multi-threaded performance of these consumer computers now exceeds the capability of all but the most specialized software
- Thunderbolt delivers high-speed mass storage expansion to a computer of any form factor... a feature that was previously only available in the Mac Pro.
Both of these developments in the latest updates to Apples consumer computers are relegating the need for a Mac Pro to fringe workloads.
It will come down to cost/benefit for each user.Again, I'm not seeing this change in computing. The consumer machines and the pro machines have always had this overlap for the last two decades. Why are we freaking out about it now?
The Mac Pro is designed for workloads where improvement can always be had. By definition, quad core consumer machines don't change this.
Of course it matters, as that's what they base their MSRP's on. So if the total cost per unit suddenly jumps a $1k, then that could exceed the point where users are either willing or able to buy. Profit could disappear, as it's based on a minimum number of units sold (i.e. expect n units sold, and get say 70% of that figure could not just reduce the margin, but actually end up a loss).The cost of building the Mac Pros doesn't matter because they make a profit on them. That makes about as much sense as saying BMW is about to leave the car market because BMW cars are very expensive to make.
This is how I see it as well. Not to say they're equal, but the gap has been closed quite a bit.2 years ago, there was a huge benefit moving from a MacBook Pro to a Mac Pro for Photoshop. Not any more.
Most of the threaded professional software out there is from the creative area (video/animation/audio).I don't know if 6, 8, or 12 cores are fringe cases. You're talking about science, video editing, pro audio, and development, which already were the primary market for pro users.
Unfortunately, this is the likely cause.The issue could be with OSX, although it might just as well be that apps are primarily developed for Windows and ported to OSX as an afterthought.
The consumer side generates a lot more money, so it's not unreasonable for it to get most of the focus (meaning internally = development funding).Like I said, the focus of Apple has shifted to the iPhone, iPad, etc (the mobility market). This is where Apple sees the future.
I see Apple maybe giving the Mac Pro one or two more updates and then dropping the line, just like they did with the XServe. Even Steve said they weren't selling well, and it was just a small fractional portion of all Apple sales. The Mac Pro has taken a backstage position in the mobile-based lineup of iPhones, iPads and notebooks that Apple is pushing out like candy for all the consumers to gobble up.
This is how I see it as well.
It will come down to cost/benefit for each user.
Consider SP users that only need 4 cores....
In the past, even when Apple's other products closed the gap in terms of core counts (when consumer parts hit 4 cores on a single die), they still fell far short in areas such as graphics and storage (i.e. consumer ports such as USB and FW couldn't cut it, nor could embedded GPU's).
But with the introduction of TB, this has closed this gap as well, particularly with storage (I do still see limits with graphics in TB's current revision, but that can be dealt with, such as a single graphics slot in an iMac).
Now when users see this and the cost difference between these systems, they may seriously reconsider their position on a MP, particularly in our current economy.
So the days of the MP being the "right" machine for users that only need 4 cores is likely to decline as a result. I'm not saying I expect the sales decline to happen all at once, but over say a couple of releases. At which point, Apple will have to make some decisions.
They've a few options, such as either EOL the MP entirely in favor of say an iMac + TB + user upgradeable GPU, or change the MP as we know it into a SP only incarnation of some sort (no more DP models).
You may not see this as a drastic change, but users that actually need more than 8 cores would (i.e. animators and any scientists that have heavily threaded OS X applications).
Of course it matters, as that's what they base their MSRP's on. So if the total cost per unit suddenly jumps a $1k, then that could exceed the point where users are either willing or able to buy. Profit could disappear, as it's based on a minimum number of units sold (i.e. expect n units sold, and get say 70% of that figure could not just reduce the margin, but actually end up a loss).
This is how I see it as well. Not to say they're equal, but the gap has been closed quite a bit.
As per development, since OS X isn't the biggest part of the OS market, I don't see it as accounting for a drastic number of MP sales either.
The Mac Pro definitely has a spot. I for example don't do video editing but I make games.
Its heartbreaking. I love Apple. Have been with them since 1985. It is a point of shame for me to have to have a PC Slave that pipes back into the MACpro so I can do my job properly...it's embarrassing.
Interesting. Seems like a fault in the software to me. CoreAudio is pretty unique, as far as an audio API for pros, not much like it exists on Windows. The latencies are much lower than what is available on Windows.
OS X has always had really good audio playback support for pros actually. Shame that the software isn't delivering audio the CoreAudio fast enough.
Starting to doubt a future MAc Pro..
I really am.
SvK
indeed if you look at who makes trucks it's the higher end car makers.
Paccar, Kenworth, Mack Truck, Sterling, Peterbilt, and Frieghtline are not higher end car makers. Maybe you mean pickup trucks, which are mostly Ford and Chevy, at least around here. Maybe you're in Europe or something.
Really? You're spinning these numbers and I think you know it....
30% profit on a $5000 machine is going to be a lot more than %50 profit (let's be reasonable here) on a $600 phone.
This is basic 3rd grade math, and the magic of percentages.
The Mac Pro should be the proud technology leader, not the last one out of the gate.
As has been pointed out numerous times, Apple is at the mercy of Intel here. There are no multi-processor capable Sandy Bridge CPU's available yet (i.e. Xeons) for anyone. And it is completely crazy to expect Apple to redesign the logic board just to add Thunderbolt & SATA3 when it would need to be done again in 6 months for SB.
If we were near the front of the Westmere life cycle and Apple hadn't added Thunderbolt with a speed bump, it might have been a significant message. But you can't really expect anything else given where we are (and it's not like there is anything in the Westmere line that is even speed bumped enough to bother with if they wanted to.
I suspect Apple has a new design ready to test with engineering samples as soon as Intel coughs some up.
I edited this to add a comment about the recent release of Final Cut X. A successor to Final Cut Pro with was discontinued. They pretty much neutered the application to better suit the amateur and prosumer market. What does that tell you?