Stereo-Like Sound With HomePods Coming Before Multi-Room Audio Feature [Updated]

[ErikGrim]

If you listen to many Jazz albums recorded live in a small club you can clearly pick out which musicians were to the right or left of the stage. So if you close your eyes you can recreate the small Jazz club experience.

This is specifically the kind of soundstage the HomePod excels at.

If you close your eyes, it’s easy to feel like you’re at a live performance. We could pick out the vocals and instruments clearly. The speaker allows each instrument to shine through; you can hear precise guitar plucks.​

Can you pick out where each musician is standing with a single unit? Probably not. Will you have a spacious, “live” experience listening? Yes.

So please answer my question from above. Do you believe that when listening to the Stones, Beatles, Live Jazz or The Doors albums you’ll hear the left and right specific sounds as recorded on the albums?

Yes. Obviously you’ll hear them. Where they’ll be put into the space that is a consistent soundstage regardless of your position remains to be heard. But again, this doesn’t matter. You are not looking at the band when listening, stereo is merely an illusion of space. If you want precise 3D or even 2D placement of sound that match visuals you need a multi-speaker, multi-channel setup.

 

[rocknblogger]

This is specifically the kind of soundstage the HomePod excels at.

If you close your eyes, it’s easy to feel like you’re at a live performance. We could pick out the vocals and instruments clearly. The speaker allows each instrument to shine through; you can hear precise guitar plucks.​

Can you pick out where each musician is standing with a single unit? Probably not. Will you have a spacious, “live” experience listening? Yes.




Yes. Obviously you’ll hear them. Where they’ll be put into the space that is a consistent soundstage regardless of your position remains to be heard. But again, this doesn’t matter. You are not looking at the band when listening, stereo is merely an illusion of space. If you want precise 3D or even 2D placement of sound that match visuals you need a multi-speaker, multi-channel setup.

Where exactly are you getting this? Do you have a source? Because I can’t find anything remotely close to what you are claiming on any Apple page regarding the HomePod?

 

[ErikGrim]

Where exactly are you getting this? Do you have a source?

That’s from Serenity Caldwell’s iMore preview.

 

[falainber]

This is specifically the kind of soundstage the HomePod excels at.

If you close your eyes, it’s easy to feel like you’re at a live performance. We could pick out the vocals and instruments clearly. The speaker allows each instrument to shine through; you can hear precise guitar plucks.​

Can you pick out where each musician is standing with a single unit? Probably not. Will you have a spacious, “live” experience listening? Yes.




Yes. Obviously you’ll hear them. Where they’ll be put into the space that is a consistent soundstage regardless of your position remains to be heard. But again, this doesn’t matter. You are not looking at the band when listening, stereo is merely an illusion of space. If you want precise 3D or even 2D placement of sound that match visuals you need a multi-speaker, multi-channel setup.

We could pick out the vocals and instruments clearly.

This mean something or nothing. Most likely here it means simply that the speaker does not rattle. When reading this sort of things in HomePod reviews we need to keep in mind that all reviewers are comparing HomePod to the likes of Google Home and Amazon Echo which are home assistants and do not claim to be magic music speakers. Of course, compared to them, HomePod will sound wonderful (it better for it costs way more). I want to know how they compare to shelf speakers in this price range.

 

[rocknblogger]

That’s from Serenity Caldwell’s iMore preview.

Actually I reread your previous reply and finally you do agree that as a listener you’ll not get the intended listening experience that the artist worked hard to create. What you are describing is a mono experience that through the magic of computing envelopes you in sound. That is not what I and many other posters are talking about when discussing stereo.

 

[ke-iron]

Where exactly are you getting this? Do you have a source? Because I can’t find anything remotely close to what you are claiming on any Apple page regarding the HomePod?

Basically he’s saying it sounds very good, has good stereo imaging, even though it lacks stereo separation which is most people main concern. True stereo playback or what is perceived as stereo in a multi directional acoustic approach.

I’m sure it sounds amazing but just knowing I will be missing out important instruction sent to left and right ear by the artist seem a bit of compromise for me. I will still get one though, I’m sure it will make an excellent party gathering speaker. For serious listening I’ll stick to my current wireless music system or headphones.

 

[ErikGrim]

What you are describing is a mono experience that through the magic of computing envelopes you in sound. That is not what I and many other posters are talking about when discussing stereo.

Just because you and “many other posters” think that’s what stereo is doesn’t make it true. You do not understand the difference between mono and stereo.

 

[rocknblogger]

Just because you and “many other posters” think that’s what stereo is doesn’t make it true. You do not understand the difference between mono and stereo.

I fully understand what stereo is and what it means. You’re trying to mold what it means to support your narrative.

 

[ErikGrim]

I fully understand what stereo is and what it means. You’re trying to mold what it means to support your narrative.

No. I am using the literal definitions, as well as my experience as an audio engineer and music producer to try explaining the concepts to people who still think stereo means two.

 

[vipergts2207]

They should have made these wireless with an inductive charging dock.... so they can be carried out on the patio, etc.

Also... I'd love if it was easy to buy a bunch of these to put in every room of the house... and for them all to work together in a simple way.... full house audio with Siri in every room.

That's the future... set it to automatically put my favorite music on when I get home... and turn it off when I leave.

Or answer phone calls anywhere in the house without my phone.

Seriously, if this had included a battery, I would’ve been in for one. Could’ve kept it in the bathroom and occasionally taken it with me to the garage, basement, and outside.

 

[ErikGrim]

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076DXWPHS/

 

[Baymowe335]

Too expensive for many average people.

That’s what they said bout the X.

Wrong.

 

[vipergts2207]

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076DXWPHS/

Unfortunately that turns it into a $500 speaker and cuts into the HomePod’s small, unobtrusive size. Could’ve given Apple an excuse to bring back a version of magsafe too.

 

[ErikGrim]

Unfortunately that turns it into a $500 speaker and cuts into the HomePod’s small, unobtrusive size. Could’ve given Apple an excuse to bring back a version of magsafe too.

There was a reason I put a in there

 

[vipergts2207]

That’s what they said bout the X.

Wrong.

I’d argue the average person doesn’t in fact have an X. Not even specifically the average iPhone owner either. The average iPhone owner is probably on a 7 still. I have yet to see an iPhone X in the wild, though I’m sure plenty are out there.

 

[TalkAboutApple]

2018 and even the basic experience of stereo has been sacrificed on the altar of convenience, to the point that it has to be explained.

 

[Kermit262]

The Mac Observer had a good explanation:

What is FullRoom
"FullRoom lets two HomePods work together in a room without creating competing stereo effects. With FullRoom active, two HomePods dynamically work together to make your music better fill a room while keeping the “it’s all around you” sound feeling you get with a single unit.

For those bigger spaces where a single HomePod just can’t fill, FullRoom lets a second take up the slack. Your two HomePods will know where they are in relation to each other, as well as in the room, so they can work as if they’re a single speaker. It’s like making your own bigger HomePod on the fly.

What FullRoom Isn’t
FullRoom doesn’t turn two HomePods into a traditional stereo left and right channel speaker set. That’s because a single HomePod isn’t a mono sound system like so many Bluetooth speakers.

Instead, FullRoom takes the same stereo-effect room filling sound you get from a single HomePod and extends that to a second unit to better fill a space with sound. If part of your room sounds quieter, for example, a second HomePod with FullRoom fixes that problem."

 

[rocknblogger]

Just because you and “many other posters” think that’s what stereo is doesn’t make it true. You do not understand the difference between mono and stereo.

Okay I’ll try one more time. There are multichannel recordings that were specifically produced to have certain sounds go the the right or left speaker. In some cases the sound travels from left to right like on some Yes albums. From what I understand so far, including your description, we will not hear these recordings as intended. Rather we’ll hear those sounds but all around us rather than traveling left to right or right to left.

For this discussion that’s how I’m interpreting stereo.

As for Serenity she specifically used the term “virtual stereo”.

 

[buststyles]

The HomePod is a mono speaker. Whether it’s drivers and sub are on 1,2,7 or 8 channels, it still is a mono speaker. Simply because there is no stereo separation. What the A8, beamforming, spatial awareness does is measure the room, adjust the volume of the speakers, and direct audio through speakers outward into the room if the HomePod is placed in a corner.

Why is it so hard to understand that there is no stereo separation in the HomePod? There is no left, right or center channel for playback of music. I have explained before why it would be a terrible idea for the HomePod to attempt to separate left and right audio especially if it’s placed in the middle of a room with people all around it.

While we know the 4 sides of the HomePod because the cable runs down the back side. This is an omnidirectional speaker shaped as a bloody cylinder, so technically there are no sides to it! Apple designed it so that the music would sound the same anywhere in the room.

Apple done started the “stereo wars” on the internet.

So are you saying there are not opposite points of a circle? And if a speaker is placed on these opposite points of the circle one can not play the left and the other one play the right channel audio? Then using the beam forming magic audio processing create a sound stage where you can hear for example vocals appearing to come from one side or the other?


Also why do you assume there are no left/right , etc channels? Just because those speakers are not in separate enclosures?

 

[ke-iron]

Okay I’ll try one more time. There are multichannel recordings that were specifically produced to have certain sounds go the the right or left speaker. In some cases the sound travels from left to right like on some Yes albums. From what I understand so far, including your description, we will not hear these recordings as intended. Rather we’ll hear those sounds but all around us rather than traveling left to right or right to left.

For this discussion that’s how I’m interpreting stereo.

As for Serenity she specifically used the term “virtual stereo”.

Don’t waste your time explaining to this guy. He claims he’s an audio engineer but his understanding of stereo is very basic. Basically stereo to him has nothing to do with directing specific audio to left and right channels, but simply having multiple speakers that play together to produce a virtual or artificial surround sound.

I remembered him clearly now from the other thread when he said he’s an audio engineer. It’s unbelievable how ignorant he is. He wouldn’t even try to understand that music recorded in stereo requires at least 2 channels. It’s been done for ages, even in headphones you can hear sounds bouncing from left ear to right ear.

It’s sad because he’s misinforming people who don’t know better.
[doublepost=1518009030][/doublepost]

So are you saying there are not opposite points of a circle? And if a speaker is placed on these opposite points of the circle one can not play the left and the other one play the right channel audio? Then using the beam forming magic audio processing create a sound stage where you can hear for example vocals appearing to come from one side or the other?


Also why do you assume there are no left/right , etc channels? Just because those speakers are not in separate enclosures?

Stop, you’re in over your head right now. These discussions have been ongoing in multiple threads. Myself and others have explained many times why there is no left and right channel, in this very thread I’ve explained it as well.

If you understood how stereo playback works through a left and right or 2 channels or more. Then you wouldn’t begin to think that a speaker which is cylindrical in design has a left or right to the listener or listeners who could be anywhere around it.

Edit: to answer your question about opposite points to a circle.

The answer is no, there are no opposite points to a circle unless you create an artificial starting point. Apple designed anywhere around the HomePod to be the sweet spot, because all the speakers play all the same audio. Just the fact that it plays the same audio through all it speakers makes the audio it reproduces mono in sound.

 

[ErikGrim]

Okay I’ll try one more time. There are multichannel recordings that were specifically produced to have certain sounds go the the right or left speaker. In some cases the sound travels from left to right like on some Yes albums. From what I understand so far, including your description, we will not hear these recordings as intended. Rather we’ll hear those sounds but all around us rather than traveling left to right or right to left.

For this discussion that’s how I’m interpreting stereo.

Thank you for this. This is indeed how people interpret stereo, as a 2D line from left to right, reproduced with two channels outputting sounds lower or higher through a speaker placed left or right. Makes sense yeah? We have two ears after all. Two receivers placed some distance from each other, able to perceive where sound is coming from. But when you stop to think about that, that’s an incredibly narrow view of representing recorded or produced music. What stereo is, is an illusion of how we experience sound in space.

Sound does not come from left to right, but any three dimensional distance around our head.

Perceiving direction and distance from where sounds are coming from has an obvious evolutionary advantage: it helps you gauge how close, how fast and from where a threat is approaching. Or if you are extra perceptive, pinpointing where your next meal is coming from.

For humans however, those functions are also how we perceive non-threatening sound. We enjoy certain sounds and how they make us feel. Which brings us to music. Music makes us, well, feel. We appreciate hearing combinations of rhythm, bass, notes and chords in a way we don’t appreciate random noise. I could go on in this direction for a long time, but for the purpose of the scope of the HomePod it applies to this:

How does listening to music on the HomePod feel? Is it going to be a pleasurable experience that’s both complimentary to the listener and the artist? Is it going to sound wide, multi-dimensional, deep, bass-y, and rhythmical? Is the bass going to shake your bones and the highs give you goosebumps? It might sound intangible and non-sciency, but good audio you can feel, not just hear. Same as how good cooking can give you involuntary food-gasms, or a smell can bring up a childhood memory; music can elevate your life - simply through experience.

Think of a good movie you watched in the theatre, rewatch it again on mute. See if it makes the same impact. I doubt it will. Audio is incredibly powerful - and the means to reproduce it in a way that feels right are now (semi) affordable.

 

[ke-iron]

Thank you for this. This is indeed how people interpret stereo, as a 2D line from left to right, reproduced with two channels outputting sounds lower or higher through a speaker placed left or right. Makes sense yeah? We have two ears after all. Two receivers placed some distance from each other, able to perceive where sound is coming from. But when you stop to think about that, that’s an incredibly narrow view of representing recorded or produced music. What stereo is, is an illusion of how we experience sound in space.

Sound does not come from left to right, but any three dimensional distance around our head.

Perceiving direction and distance from where sounds are coming from has an obvious evolutionary advantage: it helps you gauge how close, how fast and from where a threat is approaching. Or if you are extra perceptive, pinpointing where your next meal is coming from.

For humans however, those functions are also how we perceive non-threatening sound. We enjoy certain sounds and how they make us feel. Which brings us to music. Music makes us, well, feel. We appreciate hearing combinations of rhythm, bass, notes and chords in a way we don’t appreciate random noise. I could go on in this direction for a long time, but for the purpose of the scope of the HomePod it applies to this:

How does listening to music on the HomePod feel? Is it going to be a pleasurable experience that’s both complimentary to the listener and the artist? Is it going to sound wide, multi-dimensional, deep, bass-y, and rhythmical? Is the bass going to shake your bones and the highs give you goosebumps? It might sound intangible and non-sciency, but good audio you can feel, not just hear. Same as how good cooking can give you involuntary food-gasms, or a smell can bring up a childhood memory; music can elevate your life - simply through experience.

Think of a good movie you watched in the theatre, rewatch it again on mute. See if it makes the same impact. I doubt it will. Audio is incredibly powerful - and the means to reproduce it in a way that feels right are now (semi) affordable.

No. Stop just stop. You know this is not what we are arguing.
The argument isn’t stereo being only 2 speakers one on the left and one on the right side. But audio playing through left and right speakers through 2 or more channels left and right. No matter how you spin it, the HomePod cannot play music programmed to play specific sounds through a left or right side only, because virtually the HomePod have no left or right side. If it did there was then there would be no sweet spot. In reality sounds programmed to be played through left channels only will be heard through all the drivers on the HomePod, defeating the purpose of how the artist intended the music to be heard.

Even if there are six speakers in a semicircle on both sides of the listener (12 speakers total) in order to hear stereo music as intended, one side would need to be a left and the other side a right.

Edit: you don’t acknowledge the importance of left and right or 2 or more channels in stereo. Might as well go tell the music producers to go back to recording in mono. Audio system manufacturers can stop making multichannel audio equipment too, that includes headphones. We’ll just listen to all our newly purchased music recorded in mono, on a bunch of speakers split through the same channel.

Because it will sound much better hearing everything through all speakers all the time, than specific sounds directed as intended by the creator be delivered to precise locations.

You can’t seriously be an audio engineer and not know the importance or left and right channels or 2 or more channels in stereo systems today. No way!

 

[buststyles]

[doublepost=1518012783][/doublepost]

Don’t waste your time explaining to this guy. He claims he’s an audio engineer but his understanding of stereo is very basic. Basically stereo to him has nothing to do with directing specific audio to left and right channels, but simply having multiple speakers that play together to produce a virtual or artificial surround sound.

I remembered him clearly now from the other thread when he said he’s an audio engineer. It’s unbelievable how ignorant he is. He wouldn’t even try to understand that music recorded in stereo requires at least 2 channels. It’s been done for ages, even in headphones you can hear sounds bouncing from left ear to right ear.

It’s sad because he’s misinforming people who don’t know better.
[doublepost=1518009030][/doublepost]

Stop, you’re in over your head right now. These discussions have been ongoing in multiple threads. Myself and others have explained many times why there is no left and right channel, in this very thread I’ve explained it as well.

If you understood how stereo playback works through a left and right or 2 channels or more. Then you wouldn’t begin to think that a speaker which is cylindrical in design has a left or right to the listener or listeners who could be anywhere around it.

Edit: to answer your question about opposite points to a circle.

The answer is no, there are no opposite points to a circle unless you create an artificial starting point. Apple designed anywhere around the HomePod to be the sweet spot, because all the speakers play all the same audio. Just the fact that it plays the same audio through all it speakers makes the audio it reproduces mono in sound.

Your explanations are based on the assumption that the all the speakers play the same audio. Where are you getting that all speakers play the same audio? If apple has stated each speaker is on its own separate channel why can't it do stereo playback? You keep assuming the home pod is a "single" speaker like one on a transistor radio. How is the homepod different from a single enclosure with a speaker with single left and right channel speakers.

So I don't know what you mean by an artificial starting point. That starting point can be any point on the circumference and for example if I draw a line representing the diameter of that circle the points where the diameter intersect the circumference are on opposite sides. That diameter line also splits the circle into "Left and Right" halves.

I get the concept of the speakers arranged in a circle and not a traditional L/R arrangement. But with the room modeling the software does the HomePod can determine what to project to the front or the rear so I would assume it knows left and right.

And for different listeners in the room left and right can be different. If two people are facing each other on opposite sides of the homepod one person's left will the other person's right and so on. With your traditional definition of stereo only the listener in "front" of a traditional speaker setup will experience the sound stage.

 

[ersan191]

[doublepost=1518012783][/doublepost]


Your explanations are based on the assumption that the all the speakers play the same audio. Where are you getting that all speakers play the same audio? If apple has stated each speaker is on its own separate channel why can't it do stereo playback? You keep assuming the home pod is a "single" speaker like one on a transistor radio. How is the homepod different from a single enclosure with a speaker with single left and right channel speakers.

So I don't know what you mean by an artificial starting point. That starting point can be any point on the circumference and for example if I draw a line representing the diameter of that circle the points where the diameter intersect the circumference are on opposite sides. That diameter line also splits the circle into "Left and Right" halves.

I get the concept of the speakers arranged in a circle and not a traditional L/R arrangement. But with the room modeling the software does the HomePod can determine what to project to the front or the rear so I would assume it knows left and right.

And for different listeners in the room left and right can be different. If two people are facing each other on opposite sides of the homepod one person's left will the other person's right and so on. With your traditional definition of stereo only the listener in "front" of a traditional speaker setup will experience the sound stage.

It does not know front and rear, all it knows is walls. It literally can’t determine where left and right is supposed to be. There is no Apple sanctioned place to put the speaker, you can put it anywhere in a room - how is it supposed to know if wall A is the one in front of you and wall B is to the left. Apple has been very careful not to use the word “stereo” in any of their marketing materials because it is incapable of left and right separation and that is most peoples’ definition of stereo. They are even referring to two HomePods as “stereo-like” now.

I would absolutely not call this a “mono” speaker though - people need to get that idea out of their heads.

It does exactly what Apple says it does - beams center vocals and some instruments away from the walls, and background vocals and instruments towards the walls. That’s it - very simple concept (but obviously very complicated to execute). This creates a wide and deep sound stage and everyone so far has nothing but positive things to say about the effect.

Tracks with discrete left and right sounds will not be heard on the left and right - but there are not very many tracks where this matters. Where this DOES matter is if there is visual content attached, when playing a movie or TV show through an Apple TV - there will be absolutely no sense of direction in this case, making the HomePod a pretty terrible home theater or TV speaker (or pair of speakers in “fake stereo” mode).

 

[ke-iron]

[doublepost=1518012783][/doublepost]


Your explanations are based on the assumption that the all the speakers play the same audio. Where are you getting that all speakers play the same audio? If apple has stated each speaker is on its own separate channel why can't it do stereo playback? You keep assuming the home pod is a "single" speaker like one on a transistor radio. How is the homepod different from a single enclosure with a speaker with single left and right channel speakers.

So I don't know what you mean by an artificial starting point. That starting point can be any point on the circumference and for example if I draw a line representing the diameter of that circle the points where the diameter intersect the circumference are on opposite sides. That diameter line also splits the circle into "Left and Right" halves.

I get the concept of the speakers arranged in a circle and not a traditional L/R arrangement. But with the room modeling the software does the HomePod can determine what to project to the front or the rear so I would assume it knows left and right.

And for different listeners in the room left and right can be different. If two people are facing each other on opposite sides of the homepod one person's left will the other person's right and so on. With your traditional definition of stereo only the listener in "front" of a traditional speaker setup will experience the sound stage.

You are correct to say my assumption is based that all the speakers or drivers in the HomePod is playing the same audio. It's playing the same audio because its designed to play audio 360º and deliver the same audio to everyone, anywhere in the room. There cannot be a sweet spot to the HomePod if it were separating audio through left and right channels, then what people would hear wouldn't be the same. It would sound very bad.

If you watched a movie on the Apple TV using the HomePod as the speaker, would you say it gives you 7.1 surround sound? No, because it cannot split and direct specific sound through specific channels. It's designed to radiate all sound outwards in 360º

You've said the same thing I've been saying. "And for different listeners in the room left and right can be different. If two people are facing each other on opposite sides of the homepod one person's left will the other person's right and so on. With your traditional definition of stereo only the listener in "front" of a traditional speaker setup will experience the sound stage."
I will use classical music as an example. A song is playing and the author wants the listener to hear specific sounds like the far left of an orchestra playing violins while the immediate right or far right plays something else. Based on what you've said this cannot be achieved on the HomePod because multiple people standing around it will have different lefts and right! While with a traditional stereo system we know exactly where in the orchestra the sounds are coming from, left, right, far left, far right, center etc, because people listening to the music will be in front of the speakers, there is only one left and right. With the HomePod this is not the case because everyone standing around a HomePod would have different left and right.

Basically the HomePod plays all the sounds from stereo recorded music through all its speakers, drivers, tweeters or whatever it's called. The HomePod is not capable of stereo separation, an absolutely crucial part in stereo music or stereo sound. You need 2 or more channels for stereo separation, and based on what we know about the HomePod cylindrical design and people orientation to it, there is no true left or right, front or back. I can conclusively say it does not have stereo separation and a listener cannot distinguish the intended left and right sounds in stereo recorded music on a HomePod. While the HomePod plays stereo music inputted to it, it cannot playback stereo sound.

By basic definition the HomePod is a stereo speaker since it has more than one speakers built in and plays through them all. But it does not play back stereo music or stereo sound, because it would require separation of sounds into 2 or more channels. This is what all the commotion is about. It's a stereo that cannot playback in stereo. To some people, a great sounding speaker means nothing if they cannot hear the music the way it was meant to be heard. I do think most people though have no idea nor care about these intricacies in music or speaker systems.