Sidebar Sidebar
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

Steve Jobs Comments on Apple's Java Discontinuation

parapup said:
Moreover Apple is confirming an already established trend - they don't care about anyone really. So people will think several times over before investing in Apple products. Think Adobe pissing off and stopping Flash and CS updates, Nobody distributing a Mac JVM - there won't be much choice for users other than moving to Windows.
Click to expand...

There is and other - and much better - option: switching to Ubuntu.

But there's a problem with that: switching to Ubuntu also means switching from iDevices to other options. But then, maybe those Android phones are not so bad as they looked until few days ago.
 
iancapable said:
I am a java developer, I use a mac and I don't care if apple are dropping Java. In fact I welcome it. The JDK is open source, we have probably another 8 - 9 months before Lion is out, so rather than bitching on forums, if you are so concerned about the apparent loss of java on the platform go contribute some code.
Click to expand...

Open-source community on Mac is not very great. MacPorts is joke, remember what happened to OpenDarwin projects, what's going on with PureDarwin, I can't recall one successfull complex open source project specific for Mac. And for multiplatform OSS projects, their versions for Mac are mostly lagging behind those for Windows and Linux. Having that experience in mind, chances that Mac OSS community can produce usefull JDK are very bleak.

It's not blown out of proportions. Someone is taking the tool you use everyday to make for a living. That's a very huge thing.
 
dcorby23 said:
Open-source community on Mac is not very great. MacPorts is joke, remember what happened to OpenDarwin projects, what's going on with PureDarwin, I can't recall one successfull complex open source project specific for Mac. And for multiplatform OSS projects, their versions for Mac are mostly lagging behind those for Windows and Linux. Having that experience in mind, chances that Mac OSS community can produce usefull JDK are very bleak.

It's not blown out of proportions. Someone is taking the tool you use everyday to make for a living. That's a very huge thing.
Click to expand...

Most of the development dies because because there is no demand for it by most users. There are great open source applications such as XLD, Firefox and so on but one has to remember that many of the open source tools that exist in the open source world is to make up for the lack of a commercial version on Linux. I can assure you if Adobe was making Creative Suite for Linux since year dot GIMP would never have gotten off the ground - necessity is the mother of invention, if there is a necessity someone will create something to solve the problem.

The OpenJDK community is part of the equation but also Oracle getting behind it - personally I can't see Oracle not stepping up to the plate. As long as Apple hand over the code for free and in return Oracle promise to support it into the future then life can move on as per-usual.

According to:

http://landonf.bikemonkey.org/code/java/SoyLatte_Meets_OpenJDK.20080819.html

It can compile, it just needs some input from Apple and voila it'll keep moving along nicely.
 
coolfactor said:
Macs have cemented their place in the computer world, particularly developers. Oracle will not be able to ignore the Mac. I'm sure that is what Apple is counting on.
Click to expand...
Oracle can easily ignore the Mac.

firewood said:
Steve and Larry are friends. Mr. Ellison used to be on Apple's board. If Larry has a forthcoming announcement to make about control (and something tells me that Larry likes control) of Java technology on the Mac, Steve very likely doesn't want to steal Larry's limelight.
Click to expand...
Friends that share a few things in common... they worship money & control above all else. They have massive egos, when push comes to shove, money trumps friendship with these two.

Larry is too busy sailing to worry about Steve's Macs.

And Steve? He's too busy harvesting money from the iTunes tree.

Macs? (sadly) a thing of the past. I can anticipate all the angry responses now.. "but look at how many Macs are being sold", "look at this", "look at that".

Check back in just a few years and we will see where Macs are.... heh!

*I would like to be wrong, but it's not looking good* I'm going to enjoy my Macs while they're still relevant.
 
*I would like to be wrong, but it's not looking good* I'm going to enjoy my Macs while they're still relevant.
Click to expand...

Most of my Macs are PPC. They are not relevant. But are still very useful. ;)
 
dcorby23 said:
Open-source community on Mac is not very great. MacPorts is joke, remember what happened to OpenDarwin projects, what's going on with PureDarwin, I can't recall one successfull complex open source project specific for Mac. And for multiplatform OSS projects, their versions for Mac are mostly lagging behind those for Windows and Linux. Having that experience in mind, chances that Mac OSS community can produce usefull JDK are very bleak.

It's not blown out of proportions. Someone is taking the tool you use everyday to make for a living. That's a very huge thing.
Click to expand...

Well is it really a problem? Personally I don't see it as much of a problem. If you are a developer you adapt to your available tools, if it came to java being completely removed from OSX I would find a way around that:

1. I would use a build of Open JDK if it were up to scratch (let's face it, most java development these days is web based).
2. I would just move to another OS such as windows or linux (although I can't see myself on a linux box anymore, had too much of a rotten experience when I was using it as my primary before I moved to OSX).

The point is, a developer should use the best tool for the job and if OSX is no longer capable of being that tool use something else when it's no longer of use. Don't get all heated and upset because you get your knickers in a twist because there is a remote hint that there will be no java for OSX, because you just don't know what's going to happen over the next year and by the time it becomes a problem from a hardware point of view, your machines will be coming up for upgrade anyway...
 
wirelessmacuser said:
Oracle can easily ignore the Mac.
Click to expand...

I didn't read the entire thread. I guess if Oracle ignore the mac platform, it will have same fate as IE. Look at what happend to MS after abandoning IE for Mac.? IE have the lowest market share in years.

I guess Oracle could ignore Mac, sine Oracle is not Sun, they are promoting less of open systems.
 
I think the posts are getting a bit shrill.

I don't have a problem with Java not being on the App Store. The App store is primarily targeted at the consumer. The consumer doesn't need Java on the desktop. True, there are a few programs that uses Java but it's not really a problem.

One problem that has not been addressed: In my country, a nationalized single-signon solution has just been rolled out. This solution will be mandatory if you wish to use homebanking or do your taxes over the internet. This authentication solution uses Java (for really really silly reasons, but hey).

I personally think that the requirement for Java will be removed down the line but for now, OS X simply becomes largely irrelevant for consumers in my country in 8 months.
 
People are taking things way too far. First, Apple is only stopping their own internal developpement on Java. This is good. Apple was bad at it. Their Java release was always late leaving the user vulnerable to many of the security flaws that were patched in the official Sun release.

Apple has a caretaker of Java for OS X was just plain not working. Now that the ball is in Oracle's court, even if the JVM uses X11 for the GUI (it's funny how people bitch about X11 GUI, but then go on to rant about Java apps not existing on the desktop. :rolleyes:) it will still work fine.

OS X is Unix. The porting effort for the Unix runtime/sdk is probably minimal. What was weighting on Apple was the Cocoa stuff and their Swing implementation that used Cocoa instead of X11. For the rare GUI apps that exist in Java, who cares if they run in top of X11. They already didn't quite fit in with the rest of the system.

I for one welcome this move. It's high time Apple focuses on its own products and bringing them up to date with their own technologies and leaves other people's stuff to... well... other people.
 
macsmurf said:
I personally think that the requirement for Java will be removed down the line but for now, OS X simply becomes largely irrelevant for consumers in my country in 8 months.
Click to expand...

Out of curiosity: which country is that?
 
KnightWRX said:
OS X is Unix. The porting effort for the Unix runtime/sdk is probably minimal. What was weighting on Apple was the Cocoa stuff and their Swing implementation that used Cocoa instead of X11. For the rare GUI apps that exist in Java, who cares if they run in top of X11. They already didn't quite fit in with the rest of the system.
Click to expand...

Except until X11 is "deprecated" and no longer shipped with OS X. Not far stretched.

I for one welcome this move. It's high time Apple focuses on its own products and bringing them up to date with their own technologies and leaves other people's stuff to... well... other people.
Click to expand...

And what is the meaning of "Other people's stuff" here? Sun did not invent Java with a promise that they will make a runtime available for all platforms that exist. They wrote a JVM for platforms most relevant to their business - Solaris, Windows and Linux. OS X wasn't and still isn't relevant to Oracle/Sun's Java business. That fact hasn't changed since long.

This is like saying Bjarne Stroustroup should write, distribute and maintain a C++ compiler and libstdc++ for all platforms because it is his stuff.

Sun's business model meant they had no interests in writing a JVM for HP-UX as HP competes directly with them. HP writes the JVM for HP-UX. Same with IBM. And it was the same with Apple - sadly they decided to drop the ball as Java is not relevant for their business model.

The key here is the unlikelihood of Oracle stepping up and providing a supported, well integrated JVM for OS X - for all the same reasons that they don't provide one for HP-UX or AIX.
 
mynameisjay said:
I fully supported Apples stance on Flash, but as a Web Dev I can't stand behind this. Java is still in use by tons and tons of different companies. Phasing it out will only force developers to switch to PCs to simply work on things. Not good.
Click to expand...

Isn't that a bit extreme? How about the better solution that Steve suggested? How about letting the people who know JAVA the best, the one's that own it, make a Mac version? People have complained that JAVA is one release back and now they complain because Oracle may have to build on LIKE THEY DO FOR EVERY OTHER PLATFORM.
 
dcorby23 said:
There is and other - and much better - option: switching to Ubuntu.

But there's a problem with that: switching to Ubuntu also means switching from iDevices to other options. But then, maybe those Android phones are not so bad as they looked until few days ago.
Click to expand...

Absolutely - Adobe CS is the only real problem, that too for a few people. Libmobiledevice supports iDevices including iPhone 4 on Ubuntu 10.04 onwards.
 
parapup said:
Except until X11 is "deprecated" and no longer shipped with OS X. Not far stretched.
Click to expand...

Let's stick to facts instead of rampant panic.

parapup said:
The key here is the unlikelihood of Oracle stepping up and providing a supported, well integrated JVM for OS X - for all the same reasons that they don't provide one for HP-UX or AIX.
Click to expand...

HP-UX and AIX aren't on mass consumer devices or even on developer workstations. That's the difference.

EDIT : actually, there's another reason. Unix '03 Server certification requires Java support. If Sun/Oracle was distributing Java instead of HP or IBM, HP-UX and AIX couldn't get the certification from the OpenGroup. Apple doesn't care about the Server certification, only the base one.

Oracle has very good reasons to make a JVM for OS X themselves. Again, let's stick to facts instead of rampant panic. Apple just dropped the support themselves, let's see what moves Oracle pulls in light of this. We'll know for sure in the next few weeks. No one can even state the likelyhood or unlikelyhood of this happening.

Oracle is not dumb and Steve and Larry are good friends.

Not to mention OpenJDK already works on OS X, so it's a moot point really.
 
KnightWRX said:
People are taking things way too far. First, Apple is only stopping their own internal developpement on Java. This is good. Apple was bad at it. Their Java release was always late leaving the user vulnerable to many of the security flaws that were patched in the official Sun release.

Apple has a caretaker of Java for OS X was just plain not working. Now that the ball is in Oracle's court, even if the JVM uses X11 for the GUI (it's funny how people bitch about X11 GUI, but then go on to rant about Java apps not existing on the desktop. :rolleyes:) it will still work fine.

OS X is Unix. The porting effort for the Unix runtime/sdk is probably minimal. What was weighting on Apple was the Cocoa stuff and their Swing implementation that used Cocoa instead of X11. For the rare GUI apps that exist in Java, who cares if they run in top of X11. They already didn't quite fit in with the rest of the system.

I for one welcome this move. It's high time Apple focuses on its own products and bringing them up to date with their own technologies and leaves other people's stuff to... well... other people.
Click to expand...

One thing I want to know is Oracle's reaction to it. Did Apple talk with Oracle before hand.
If Apple just dropped this bomb shell with out working it out with Oracle first then shame on Apple and Apple effectively shot it self in the foot.
While apple has done a piss poor job of Java they still should work with Oracle on the transition to Oracle taking it over because other wise it is going to be a fairly long lag time before Oracle can get out a JVM for OSX. I honestly hope Apple supplies Oracle with most of the source code so they have a starting point.
 
KnightWRX said:
Let's stick to facts instead of rampant panic.

Oracle is not dumb and Steve and Larry are good friends.
Click to expand...

So you are saying let's be factual when ignoring the writings on the wall and talking about the possibility of NOT having a well supported and integrated OS X JVM but we can always speculate on HAVING it because Steve and Larry are friends? :confused:

Apple should have officially announced some transition plan before deprecating the JVM they provide. Since they have not done that, it is not unreasonable to evaluate the worst case scenario.
 
parapup said:
So you are saying let's be factual when ignoring the writings on the wall and talking about the possibility of NOT having a well supported and integrated OS X JVM but we can always speculate on HAVING it because Steve and Larry are friends? :confused:
Click to expand...

No, it just means that there's weight on both sides of the scale. Before we decide to tip anything over, let's just wait and see what Oracle decides.

parapup said:
Apple should have officially announced some transition plan before deprecating the JVM they provide. Since they have not done that, it is not unreasonable to evaluate the worst case scenario.
Click to expand...

It is, until we get a reaction from Oracle. Apple doesn't need to officially announce anything, the ball is in Oracle's court now. This was done last week, let's see what the next few weeks bring before resorting to mass hysteria.
 
parapup said:
Absolutely - Adobe CS is the only real problem, that too for a few people. Libmobiledevice supports iDevices including iPhone 4 on Ubuntu 10.04 onwards.
Click to expand...

Oh, come on, libimobiledevice is even uglier than OS X Java using X11. :eek:

No, if there would be no useful Java on Mac I would have to jump both MacOS X and iOS ship on long term and switch to Ubuntu/Android combination. Not that I want to, but I would be forced to do it.
 
KnightWRX said:
It is, until we get a reaction from Oracle. Apple doesn't need to officially announce anything, the ball is in Oracle's court now. This was done last week, let's see what the next few weeks bring before resorting to mass hysteria.
Click to expand...

I am not sure on what basis you say that Apple doesn't need to announce anything. That's plain absurd.

I just don't get where you got the notion that providing Java run times for all platforms is somehow Oracle's organizational goals or it somehow benefits them when you and me use Java on OS X.

And just to be sure this isn't mass hysteria - it's a valid and reasonable discussion. If you feel other way - feel free to ignore it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.
Top Bottom
Back