You can only distribute applications developed using Apple's officially sanctioned tools with the App Stores.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Steve Jobs Comments on Apple's Java Discontinuation
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
You can only distribute applications developed using Apple's officially sanctioned tools with the App Stores.
I have just browsed Oracle's job postings. Since Oracle doesn't have known OS X development outside of VirtualBox/MySQL teams it would be logical that if they are readying OS X release of JDK, they would have at least one job opening that mentions OS X in requirements. No such thing there. They are only mentioning Windows and Unix. Some may argue that OS X is also Unix and that is correct, but OS X JDK is not typical Unix port. Unless Apple transfered their Java people to Oracle (and that is highly unlikely) I think that should put "Oracle would jump in" theories to rest.
The Mac Java port uses private Apple APIs. The Mac is a "fake" Unix, it's GUI not being based on X Window.
As I said OS X port is not typical Unix port. If they develop a typical Unix port for OS X they don't need to bother.
(One of the reasons) we have been using OS X was much better Java development environment than on Unix or Windows. Unix port won't be the replacement for that it will be much, much worse.
Benefits for Apple: Sell more hardware. Get a foothold in the enterprise. Get an army of IT people recommending Apple products to their bosses, friends, and families.
Benefits for Oracle: None
That doesn't make sense. Considering that Unix itself has no GUI, Mac OSX is Unix 03 certified and X is not the only display server for Unix.
http://www.microxwin.com/
http://www.directfb.org/
That's like saying Linux is Unix, just because it has X.org, yet Linux isn't even POSIX compliant.
I wasn't saying that Mac OSX's Java is a typical port. I'm saying that no special people would need to be hired to get Oracle ported Java onto Mac OSX. Mac OSX is POSIX compliant, so it'll be easy to port the JVM at least. They may use Quartz to render the graphics, they may use X. It just depends on how much effort if Oracle does on it.
In terms of technical support, security, It'll be much better. In terms of UI, it'll be standard Java Guis. Some good, some that should've never seen the light of day.
I wrote the fake between quotes meaning that X Window is the de facto standard for Unix desktops. NeWS is dead.
Agreed, a lot of the sun developers use/used macs.
As for looking for job postings on the oracle site. No company with a jobs section is kept up to date.
Still, not using X does not make OSX a Fake Unix.
Did you even follow those links?
They were most definitely not NeWS, so I don't know how you got from DirectFB/MicroXWin to NeWS.
Unfortunately OpenJDK only supports X11 and not Aqua.
X11 is kind of nasty.
Not really a solution, neither is having to use a VM like some suggest. A native JDK is the bar better solution.
X11 is kind of nasty.
Not really a solution, neither is having to use a VM like some suggest. A native JDK is the bar better solution.
Those links have nothing to do with it.
There have been only 2 network-capable windowing standards for Unix. X Window and NeWS. NeWS is dead, so X11 is the only way to go.
Again I wrote "fake" Unix instead of fake Unix to guard against such objections.
You don't need to use any ugly standard X11 libraries in clients. You just need to be compatible with the protocol, so a language can implement its own X11 full stack.
Schools
Don't worry about religion in schools, Jesus has given that play ground to Satan. Now, it's satan who is worried because he doesn't know where to put all those educated people be poisoned. you may want to "Think"about that for a moment.
Don't worry about religion in schools, Jesus has given that play ground to Satan. Now, it's satan who is worried because he doesn't know where to put all those educated people be poisoned. you may want to "Think"about that for a moment.
Apple no longer supports Java for the very same reason it no longer wants Flash on its devices: Both Java and Flash are portable platforms, making an application independent from the underlying operating system. When you write software for Flash or Java, that software will also run on non-Apple systems. And Apple simply does not want that - they want to lock-in the developers to their proprietary OS X and iOS platforms (which is why Apple made it a rule that Java apps are not allowed in the Mac AppStore). End of discussion.
Somebody mentioned that Java on OS X would open doors for Apple to the enterprise... Well, if you read James Gosling's latest blog, you'd know that in fact Apple bought a lot of Sun hardware to power Apple's Java-based websites. Apple obviously doesn't even run their own stores on Xserves. Check out www.nighthacks.com for more. In case you don't know who James Gosling is: He's the creator of Java and a former Sun fellow.
By removing the Java support, Apple is adding another wall to its Walled Garden. And it won't end here. My bet is that Lion will be the last incarnation of Mac OS X where you can freely install applications without having to go through the Mac AppStore and at the same time, more and more of the functionality of Apple's platform will move to Apple's online services.
And this is where I sign off from Apple's software land. They built nice hardware, and as long as that hardware can run other operating systems, there is nothing wrong with using it. But OS X? I think now is the time to cut the losses and move on - out of Apple's digital prison.
Somebody mentioned that Java on OS X would open doors for Apple to the enterprise... Well, if you read James Gosling's latest blog, you'd know that in fact Apple bought a lot of Sun hardware to power Apple's Java-based websites. Apple obviously doesn't even run their own stores on Xserves. Check out www.nighthacks.com for more. In case you don't know who James Gosling is: He's the creator of Java and a former Sun fellow.
By removing the Java support, Apple is adding another wall to its Walled Garden. And it won't end here. My bet is that Lion will be the last incarnation of Mac OS X where you can freely install applications without having to go through the Mac AppStore and at the same time, more and more of the functionality of Apple's platform will move to Apple's online services.
And this is where I sign off from Apple's software land. They built nice hardware, and as long as that hardware can run other operating systems, there is nothing wrong with using it. But OS X? I think now is the time to cut the losses and move on - out of Apple's digital prison.
When I wrote gaining a foothold in the enterprise I meant on the desktop side - not the server side. That is, developing for the server side. Sorry about the confusion.
No one in their right mind (including Apple, apparently) would deploy Java applications on Apple servers.
No, Mac OS X the real deal Unix.
http://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/
If it was "fake" Unix it wouldn't be listed on the Open Group's website. They are the holder of the Unix trademark and don't just allow anyone to use it. There's a very big test suite and a lot of conformance requirements to meet.
And btw, X11 is available on 100% of Macs. Apple ships it.
What's nasty about it ? It's a display protocol to transfer app provided primitives to a server that will display them on screen. It's actually quite elegant and refined. It's ahead of all other display protocols in existance today, yet we've had it since 1984. What other display protocol provides transparent mecanisms for local and remote clients ?
I bet you're talking about Swing. That has nothing to do with X11.
And consumers don't want to use X11 applications because Apple did not base their fancy GUI on it.
And normal Mac windows cannot be remoted. You have to use a stupid remote desktop.
I don't get this comment. I use X11 applications all the time. Are you saying I'm not a consumer ?
That's because not every GUI app on OS X uses the X11 protocol. Again, what is your point really ?
X11 is there, it can be used by anything and it works.
Only Unix heads use X11 applications on OSX. It's not the native GUI.
"not every GUI app". What an understatement. Barely any usual Mac app uses X11.
I'd rather Oracle distribute the Mac version. Apple has this bad habit of abandoning prior OSX releases entirely in those regards (i.e. you cannot get Java 6 for Leopard because Apple only offers it to Snow Leopard and of course Snow Leopard isn't available for PPC machines). At least Adobe distributes their own Flash and has no immediate plans to discontinue PPC support.
Meanwhile, I still cannot figure out why I have to use Safari on both Snow Leopard and regular Leopard on two different machines (one Intel and one PPC) to run Scrabble on Pogo.com. If I use Firefox, the screen doesn't update properly (obvious with the scroll bar in the lobby room and during the game). I've tried disabling all add-ons to Firefox on both machines and neither looks right. Yet it works fine on Firefox on Windows and Linux machines so I'm leaning towards something in Apple's translation of Java. Maybe this will mean it finally works right on all browsers.
I'd look in the mirror before you go flaming everyone who doesn't agree with you. It's blatantly obvious by every move Apple is making lately that they are indeed bringing iOS and OSX closer together. Just look at Lion for goodness sake. 10.8 may indeed converge the two. You cannot base current iOS and development on the future because we all know that Apple wont' hesitate a single second to drop support for older hardware in newer versions of OSX and iOS at the drop of a hat! Just because it's not easy right now to just check an app for OSX and iOS, that doesn't mean it won't be the case 2 or 3 years from now.
Is there $0 in it for Oracle to support Windows? Linux? Why aren't they just supporting Solaris if what you say is true? WTF is the point of a cross-platform development language if it doesn't support all the top operating systems, especially one that is growing leaps and bounds lately?
It is possible that Oracle was never even offered the choice to support OSX directly before (Apple seemed pretty keen on it in the beginning of OSX) or that there was simply no point since Apple was already doing it for them. Flash is different because Adobe does do all the releases already. Apple was simply shipping (an often old) version with OSX installs. There's a big difference there. Flash was never updated via Software Update like Java. And as I said above, Apple has this nasty habit of abandoning older OSX releases (even before they drop official support for them) to older versions of things like Java. If you have Leopard on your Mac (i.e. far as PPC is supported), you have Java 5, not Java 6 because Apple never bothered to update Java for Leopard, even though the OS had only been around about a year and half before it was replaced by Snow Leopard. All that push for Universal Apps and then abandonment. Yet the latest Flash is available for even Tiger because Adobe releases it, not Apple who doesn't give a flying crap about Leopard users, let alone Tiger users.
Apple is the land of the endless upgrades (while simultaneously and somewhat ironically always being behind the PC World in most areas) and this is due to Apple hardware being the basis of sales monopolized by an operating system designed to support the hardware rather than the other way around which means your support is not determined by your hardware's ability to run newer things, but rather it's the operating system's job to make sure you keep buying new hardware by removing all support for your older hardware artificially. It's a good business trick, if you can get the public to buy into it and apparently Apple has found a way to do so, at least enough to make them rich.
Java is already largely irrelevant on the desktop. Most people use it to play games on Pogo or Yahoo, not do anything serious with it. Most people wouldn't even notice that it's missing, really. As for being trivial to make, if Apple shares its current development tree for its version of Java with Oracle, it would be rather trivial for them to take over it and update it. That might also ensure they keep using OSX widgets, etc. If they force them to start from scratch, Java for Mac might indeed be dead. Given Steve's comments, I see no reason to keep it from them and it would be better for everyone if Oracle distributed it since Apple has always done a half arse job with Java anyway. Given the recent interview concerning Steve's mindset for NOT hiring more people to cover all his bases (due to his need for personal control over EVERYTHING), it's obvious why there isn't enough time at Apple for mundane things like Java support.
Obviously, you know NOTHING about the American view of the world or you would have CHINA on the map since we practically worship the Chinese today. We send most of our jobs there, make most of our goods there and America gets a deficit instead of a tax base from it all. Evil Commies? Hardly. We WORSHIP Communism today! They make our top rich people even richer and make sure the rest of us are heading into 3rd World oblivion by eliminating the Middle Class. Some of us here think the people in Congress (and formerly in Congress) that lead us down this path are traitors to this country and democracy itself (along with the Supreme Court members/traitors voting for corporations to be able to buy the government out any time they want to), but clearly our voices don't matter. Only people like Steve have any sway (note his recent meeting with Obama; maybe they can discuss ways to move even more of Apple's jobs to China even faster?). No, I'm sorry, but your "map" isn't accurate at all nor do you understand the US's view of Communism in 2010. We obviously LOVE IT too since we are about to put the same people back in power that created the situation in the first place!
I agree this is where Steve wants Apple to go (the profits to be reaped from 30% of all developer profits could eventually eclipse the hardware profits on the platform; Steve has apparently found a way to [legally it seems?] monopolize 100% of all software profits for his hardware in the iOS land and so he obviously thinks he can do the same with OSX in general). The only possible chinks in the chain is user resistance (unlikely given the massive popularity of the iPhone, iPod and iPad), possible Justice Department interference (unlikely given their past resistance to targeting Apple for any kind of anti-trust violations despite a 100% monopolization (not be confused with the legal definition of a "Monopoly" or the board game) of compatible hardware for OSX use) or the departure of Steve Jobs from Apple (again, unlikely given Steve's controlling nature; he'll probably be around as long as he's alive). If Steve did leave Apple, I think most of these trends would begin to reverse as Apple is overlooking many markets in favor of consumer gadgets, but Steve is far too anal to let anyone else control those aspects of the company in order to properly cover them (e.g. Enterprise/Server support, gaming support, etc.).
Meanwhile, I still cannot figure out why I have to use Safari on both Snow Leopard and regular Leopard on two different machines (one Intel and one PPC) to run Scrabble on Pogo.com. If I use Firefox, the screen doesn't update properly (obvious with the scroll bar in the lobby room and during the game). I've tried disabling all add-ons to Firefox on both machines and neither looks right. Yet it works fine on Firefox on Windows and Linux machines so I'm leaning towards something in Apple's translation of Java. Maybe this will mean it finally works right on all browsers.
I'd look in the mirror before you go flaming everyone who doesn't agree with you. It's blatantly obvious by every move Apple is making lately that they are indeed bringing iOS and OSX closer together. Just look at Lion for goodness sake. 10.8 may indeed converge the two. You cannot base current iOS and development on the future because we all know that Apple wont' hesitate a single second to drop support for older hardware in newer versions of OSX and iOS at the drop of a hat! Just because it's not easy right now to just check an app for OSX and iOS, that doesn't mean it won't be the case 2 or 3 years from now.
Is there $0 in it for Oracle to support Windows? Linux? Why aren't they just supporting Solaris if what you say is true? WTF is the point of a cross-platform development language if it doesn't support all the top operating systems, especially one that is growing leaps and bounds lately?
It is possible that Oracle was never even offered the choice to support OSX directly before (Apple seemed pretty keen on it in the beginning of OSX) or that there was simply no point since Apple was already doing it for them. Flash is different because Adobe does do all the releases already. Apple was simply shipping (an often old) version with OSX installs. There's a big difference there. Flash was never updated via Software Update like Java. And as I said above, Apple has this nasty habit of abandoning older OSX releases (even before they drop official support for them) to older versions of things like Java. If you have Leopard on your Mac (i.e. far as PPC is supported), you have Java 5, not Java 6 because Apple never bothered to update Java for Leopard, even though the OS had only been around about a year and half before it was replaced by Snow Leopard. All that push for Universal Apps and then abandonment. Yet the latest Flash is available for even Tiger because Adobe releases it, not Apple who doesn't give a flying crap about Leopard users, let alone Tiger users.
Apple is the land of the endless upgrades (while simultaneously and somewhat ironically always being behind the PC World in most areas) and this is due to Apple hardware being the basis of sales monopolized by an operating system designed to support the hardware rather than the other way around which means your support is not determined by your hardware's ability to run newer things, but rather it's the operating system's job to make sure you keep buying new hardware by removing all support for your older hardware artificially. It's a good business trick, if you can get the public to buy into it and apparently Apple has found a way to do so, at least enough to make them rich.
Java is already largely irrelevant on the desktop. Most people use it to play games on Pogo or Yahoo, not do anything serious with it. Most people wouldn't even notice that it's missing, really. As for being trivial to make, if Apple shares its current development tree for its version of Java with Oracle, it would be rather trivial for them to take over it and update it. That might also ensure they keep using OSX widgets, etc. If they force them to start from scratch, Java for Mac might indeed be dead. Given Steve's comments, I see no reason to keep it from them and it would be better for everyone if Oracle distributed it since Apple has always done a half arse job with Java anyway. Given the recent interview concerning Steve's mindset for NOT hiring more people to cover all his bases (due to his need for personal control over EVERYTHING), it's obvious why there isn't enough time at Apple for mundane things like Java support.
And the 20% figure only makes sense, if you take the American view of the world:
Obviously, you know NOTHING about the American view of the world or you would have CHINA on the map since we practically worship the Chinese today. We send most of our jobs there, make most of our goods there and America gets a deficit instead of a tax base from it all. Evil Commies? Hardly. We WORSHIP Communism today! They make our top rich people even richer and make sure the rest of us are heading into 3rd World oblivion by eliminating the Middle Class. Some of us here think the people in Congress (and formerly in Congress) that lead us down this path are traitors to this country and democracy itself (along with the Supreme Court members/traitors voting for corporations to be able to buy the government out any time they want to), but clearly our voices don't matter. Only people like Steve have any sway (note his recent meeting with Obama; maybe they can discuss ways to move even more of Apple's jobs to China even faster?). No, I'm sorry, but your "map" isn't accurate at all nor do you understand the US's view of Communism in 2010. We obviously LOVE IT too since we are about to put the same people back in power that created the situation in the first place!
I agree this is where Steve wants Apple to go (the profits to be reaped from 30% of all developer profits could eventually eclipse the hardware profits on the platform; Steve has apparently found a way to [legally it seems?] monopolize 100% of all software profits for his hardware in the iOS land and so he obviously thinks he can do the same with OSX in general). The only possible chinks in the chain is user resistance (unlikely given the massive popularity of the iPhone, iPod and iPad), possible Justice Department interference (unlikely given their past resistance to targeting Apple for any kind of anti-trust violations despite a 100% monopolization (not be confused with the legal definition of a "Monopoly" or the board game) of compatible hardware for OSX use) or the departure of Steve Jobs from Apple (again, unlikely given Steve's controlling nature; he'll probably be around as long as he's alive). If Steve did leave Apple, I think most of these trends would begin to reverse as Apple is overlooking many markets in favor of consumer gadgets, but Steve is far too anal to let anyone else control those aspects of the company in order to properly cover them (e.g. Enterprise/Server support, gaming support, etc.).
Unix heads are consumers too. We have feelings you know.
But some do, and they work fine. What is your point again ?
I'd also rather Apple leave the updates of vendor software up to the vendors. Flash, Java need timely updates, it should not be up to Apple to provide these. I'd say Apple did the right thing here and also the right thing for Flash.