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i don't know why you guys keep complaining about crap apps

crap apps could easily be made in objective-c and people do buy those things like fart apps. So it boils down to is choice let the dev choose what they want to code in and the user will choose what they want to buy.
 
BTW. OpenGL must be banned now too because it's also a layer and "middle ware". Well too bad :D

Open GL is an Apple supported SDK API. If there are performance problems, memory problems, etc., Apple can fix them, since they control the implementation of that API.

Not so with the middleware API to some Flash widget. If the widget looks or performs badly on a user's iPhone, neither Apple nor the developer can fix the problems (without waiting, or dumping Flash and rewriting the widget using a Cocoa native API. Apple hasn't had much luck with waiting on Adobe, so they're enforcing the latter choice.)
 
There are all kinds of genius. Steve happens to have been a cofounder of Apple, founder of Next, caretaker of Pixar, savior of Apple the second time around, and the pathfinder to convergence of media and mobility. You could make an argument that anyone of those would be a fluke, but that's a pretty good track record. Steve has the talent of taking existing technology, extrapolating it, and distilling it into its essentials while blending it with the culture of the human race.

Woz was a brilliant designer, and that single accomplishment of the Apple 1 hardware design remains a pinnacle of his career, but his era is long gone. I don't think that you give enough credit for Steve in launching Apple as the company. Without Steve, Woz would have been an unknown engineer outside of some large corporation that he would have ended up working for.

Yes, worship him. It is Sunday.

How many "good games"are currently on each platform?More importantly how many really top grade games are on Android and NOT iPhone?

Think of it this way many of the "good games" on iPhone came from Middleware

Unity 3d official blog said:
we believe that with hundreds of titles (or probably over a thousand by now), including a significant proportion of the best selling ones, we’re adding so much value to the iPhone ecosystem that Apple can’t possibly want to shut that down.
 
And don't ignore his point which was : People have been making crap apps that flooded the approval queue for quite a while since the SDK was released.

Don't ignore mine. I answered his.

You don't solve the problem by introducing 10x - 100x as many more medicore apps from every script kiddie in the country.

It may be an issue now, it will be a crushing order of magnitude worse if flash-to-app is allowed.
 
If I remember correctly, there was no Intel version of Adobe products for about two years, old code had to run in Roseta for that time.

Adobe CS1 released Sept 2003. CS2 released in April 2005. CS3 in April 2007. CS4 in October 2008. CS5 in April/May 2010.

Mac Pro August 2006. (7 months before CS3)

Quite simple - Adobe has roughly an 18 to 24 month major release cycle. Apple switched processors in the middle of Adobe's cycle. Adobe added universal binaries in the next release after the Intel switch. What more could they reasonably do?


As to 64 bits .... If I recalll correctly 64 bit Adobe products were 1st supported in windows and Mac versions were only partialy supported.

CS5 to my knowledge is the first Adobe product for Mac that fully embraces 64 bit.

Yes, CS4 was 32-bit for Apples and 64-bit (in parts) for Windows. This was mainly Apple's fault, for changing their announced roadmap and dropping plans for 64-bit Carbon.

Ten new things in Leopard, coming in Spring 2007

Jobs explained to developers that some top secret features in Leopard won’t be revealed, but Apple wants them to know about them in preparation for a Spring 2007 launch. “We don’t want our friends in Redmond to start their photocopiers just yet,” he added. With that, Jobs introduced Scott Forestall, Apple’s vice president of Platform Experience.

Forestall told the crowd that Leopard will have support for 64-bit applications. “We’ve now got 64-bit Unix,” he explained. “In Leopard, take this a giant leap forward with 64-bit Carbon and Cocoa, all the way to your applications. You can have fully native 64-bit UI Carbon or Cocoa applications.”

WWDC 2006 Live Keynote Update http://www.macworld.com/article/52233/2006/08/liveupdate.html

Fast forward one year, WWDC 2007, and it is announced that Carbon64 won't be provided.
 
Don't ignore mine. I answered his.


You don't solve the problem by introducing 10x - 100x as many more medicore apps from every script kiddie in the country.

You didn't answer his, you only again repeated the same rethoric you just did to my post. These tools don't enable script kiddies to write code anymore than the Apple tools do.

And language and tools don't mean squat as far as the quality of apps go.

The simple fact is : The App store is already flooded with crap. Most of it was written using the Apple tools. Don't try to tell us the apple tools only result in quality. It's all about the dev, not the tools.
 
1. Java is not dead. Development on Android OS, etc. uses Java. it's way more popular than Objective-C
2. Flash development isn't "dragging around widgits". (ActionScript 3.0 / MXML)

I wouldn't bother with the chart, or stating MXML, AS3, or OOS. Most people here backing the Apple side of the debate are not willing to see the argument from the other side of the table. If they did, they would actually do some research about Flash and other development platforms to try and understand the situation, and how many developers are being shut-out by this change in the iPhone SDK agreement.

The basis for this change has nothing to do with the quality of the Apps that will run in the iPhone OS, but rather that they don't want iPhone Devs being able to re-use any of their code for cross-platform applications, by utilizing these kinds of intermediary platforms. It will only hurt iPhone OS users in the long run.
 
Don't ignore mine. I answered his.

You don't solve the problem by introducing 10x - 100x as many more medicore apps from every script kiddie in the country.

It may be an issue now, it will be a crushing order of magnitude worse if flash-to-app is allowed.

You don't solve the problem by killing the best middleware 3d game engine on the iPhone.
 
crap apps could easily be made in objective-c

cr*p apps in Objective C far less often, on average, take up nearly 10 MB of storage, compared to ones done using middleware. And the percentage of Obj C developers who can only spit out such apps is much smaller than with some other API platforms.

It's a statistical game. Apple's app review team could potentially be seeing the statistical distribution of app performance measured against a static analysis fingerprint of how directly the APIs are being used.

Some small percentage of cr*p apps might be good for the App store, because it seems there are a few happy customers for almost anything in the long tail. But that small percentage doesn't need any encouragement.
 
The basis for this change has nothing to do with the quality of the Apps that will run in the iPhone OS, but rather that they don't want iPhone Devs being able to re-use any of their code for cross-platform applications, by utilizing these kinds of intermediary platforms. It will only hurt iPhone OS users in the long run.

You seen very sure that this is the reason. Could you give me compelling evidence that there are no quality-related technical reasons?

On the flip side, could those who take Apple's position and do not feel there are no political reasons give me compelling evidence that this is the case?
 
You didn't answer his, you only again repeated the same rethoric you just did to my post. These tools don't enable script kiddies to write code anymore than the Apple tools do.

That is BS. Anyone who can write an Action Script, can now simply click "compile to iPhone".

By definition any script kiddie can now dump their drek on the appstor.

Before you had to at least make some investment in learning the tools, the language and the platform (and it had to be done on the Mac). These all limit the numbers of potential crap apps developers.

With flash to app, there are no limiters.

Saying there will be a Ten fold increase in junk apps is a drastic understatement.
 
Nope. This falls into the category of "undocumented API"

Sorry, but you do not understand 3.3.1.

There is nothing there that prohibits third-party libraries... as long as they are originally written in C, C++, Objective-C or Javascript (iPhone's variant only) and "directly" link to Documented APIs.

You should probably re-read it so you don't keep spreading misinformation.
 
cr*p apps in Objective C far less often, on average, take up nearly 10 MB of storage, compared to ones done using middleware. And the percentage of Obj C developers who can only spit out such apps is much smaller than with some other API platforms.

Oh please, the spam app generators out there that offer "1000 wallpapers" or "Girls Girls Girls" that are just a bunch of UIImageViews that get swapped out are proof to the contrary.

The App store is full of crap, and it was full of it way before any serious middleware was available. The fact is, Interface Builder makes it easy to write such crap in the first place, maybe Apple should ban that and require that all views be hand coded in assembler to make sure it's optimized... :rolleyes:

API and platforms aren't what enable crap, it's the peddlers of that crap and Apple who approves it that enable it. If Apple had just refused the "Hey, my blank UIView is in fact a full featured flashlight app" in the first place, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Apple doesn't care about app quality or battery drains or performances. I have used unstable apps and have seen the battery get drained in 30 minutes by some games. This is about locking in devs to the iPhone, plain and simple.

That is BS. Anyone who can write an Action Script, can now simply click "compile to iPhone".

By definition any script kiddie can now dump their drek on the appstor.

Before you had to at least make some investment in learning the tools, the language and the platform (and it had to be done on the Mac). These all limit the numbers of potential crap apps developers.

Uh ? Fire up Xcode, use the App template to get a UIView app, double click the ViewController.xib and blank it. Build and Run, instant flashlight app.

Please. You don't have the first clue about Flash and Flex developement and you're trying to tell us Apple's tools are more complex ?
 
Coda & TextMate do the job quite nicely. Though I would love to see a Native written for Mac OS X (Not XCode or Eclipse based) specifically tailored for web development(PHP, Ruby, Perl etc...). Visual Studio Web Developer on Windows is great for C# and ASP .Net MVC. I have tried Komodo, Aptana and some others on Mac OS X but I don't like the non-native look and feel and unintuitiveness along with slugishness primarly because of Java/Eclipse. Many have dumped Dreamweaver long ago it's bloatware.

Adobe Dreamweaver would presumably push these features. They still seem to see flash as a standalone plugin to a page, with pretty much total resource focus.

I like to think that deep deep down, adobe do appreciate on some cerebral level that flash has played its part in the internet, but that its day are ultimately numbered.
 
Unity uses MonoTouch and is written in C#. This is banned.

It’s not as clear-cut as that. There is reason to worry for sure, but there are still plenty of reasons to have hope for Unity:

1. Unity has made some awesome, quality App Store apps, which Apple themselves has featured. Some are very popular, and losing them all would carry some user fallout (to say nothing of developers).

2. Unity has been on the App Store for a long time.

3. Apple and Unity have worked together. (And Unity came from the Mac to begin with.)

4. Apple changes the terms of their agreements all the time. This wording is not final.

5. Apple grants exceptions to their own rules all the time. (Unreal Engine being an example we’ve heard about.)

6. Unity Technologies has expressed cautious optimism—and they’re a good, honest company who has always treated their customers with respect and more.

7. Apple has good reason to dislike Flash, but not Unity.

8. Unity iPhone requires a Mac and works with Xcode, not instead of it. It even introduces some people to Xcode, and people use Xcode to extend Unity’s capabilities.

9. Apple has a history of 180-reversals of bad decisions—especially when it comes to the App Store. And Unity doesn’t even need that big a shift. Apple could easily bar Flash without barring Unity.

10. There’s always room for interpretation. For every anonymous person who thinks the wording is iron-clad doom, someone else with some standing (like John Gruber and David Helgason) thinks it’s not yet fully clear.

11. Unity (and various community add-ons) has been great about implementing new iPhone OS and SDK features. They’re not holding back Apple innovation as Adobe/Flash would. In fact, by updating the engine to support new Apple features (like Game Center, no doubt), they make it easier for small developers to update their games and use these new services.

12. It may all be just poor wording, easily corrected, and there was never any intention that all these consequences would come up.

13. If the wording were to mean the worst after all, it would affect a lot more than just Unity and Flash, and more apps than we even know. All kinds of big-name ports of games from other platforms could even be affected. Unity would not be standing alone in calling for a better resolution.

14. Games are not the same as other apps. They use their own UI and have their own tools and constraints. Flash could do real harm to native development of non-game iPhone apps, if the iPhone UI starts to be widely violated. But a game-specific tool like Unity is much less dangerous.

15. Unity reportedly already works decently with the new OS 4 multitasking.

16. Unity has a talented, innovative and dedicated team who has worked around big App Store limitations in the past. If the final answer IS the worst-case, that the current version does not comply, then they’ll get to work, not give up. Their solution could then require Unity developers to do some aggravating re-working of games, but at least Unity would be likely to make that shift as streamlined as possible.

In short, there is reason to hope that Apple wouldn’t WANT to stop Unity the way they want to stop Flash, plus reason to hope that it’s practical for them to block Flash without harming Unity. Hopefully this is a matter of Apple neglecting to even think about Unity (yet) in this matter, rather than any specific intention against Unity.
 
It's also true that the splintering of the Android market isn't going to be a picnic for developers. Apple basically will have 4 generations of devices by this summer, with the latest being a superset of the previous versions. By fall, it's probable that that the iPhone and iPad variants will have converged into a single version again.

Would you as a developer like to support all the variations of features and versions of Android, not to mention Chrome OS versions of phones, tablets, netbooks and media devices?

Thats the point of the cross compiler, as a developer you dont have to support anything except the code you want to work in. Then you comiple to the version(s) you want. Besdies most of us with a web background have spent years supporting umpteen browsers, i dont see this being much different.

At the end of the day, fragmentation isn't a problem until it becomes a problem. For now there isnt much of an issue. I'm not sure its really fair to say that android is splintering at this point. Google seem to be very aware of the risk of fragmentation and its even been suggested the nexus one is basically a "heres how to do it" guide to other retailers. Google is planning to take control of product updates itself rather than let carriers control it, and that should solve fragmentation problems. But at this stage its anyone guess.
 
You didn't answer his, you only again repeated the same rethoric you just did to my post. These tools don't enable script kiddies to write code anymore than the Apple tools do.

And language and tools don't mean squat as far as the quality of apps go.

The simple fact is : The App store is already flooded with crap. Most of it was written using the Apple tools. Don't try to tell us the apple tools only result in quality. It's all about the dev, not the tools.

One thing you should understand about Flash (this doesn't necessarily apply to all other platforms banned) is that is would take extraordinary effort to maintain iPhone look and feel. That's because Flash takes over responsibility for drawing every pixel and handling every event its own way. A developer would have to re-implement iPhone OS look and feel from the ground up in Flash.

That makes it only useful for games where custom UIs seem to be acceptable.

Games, of course, ought to use hardware acceleration for graphics rendering and calculations. It's conceivable that Adobe could implement their Flash App publisher to do this, but I have a hard time believing they did. E.g., in all these years they haven't bothered to implement hardware acceleration in the Mac OS Flash plugin.

If not, Flash is not useful for non-games either.

Would Flash apps published as iPhone apps use hardware acceleration? I don't know but I doubt it, considering
 
Apple could easily bar Flash without barring Unity.

I'm not saying they won't, but I think if Apple allow Unity to continue but disallow Flash CS5 they will probably be looking at an anti-competitive practise lawsuit because their selectively obstructuve buisness model is harming Adobe's ability to be competitive.

To tech-commentators and enthusiasts such as ourselves there is (on some level) a sort of logical legitimacy to apples decision. But under Jury conditions in a court its fairly likely Apple would get some sort of reprimand for allowing unity but not flash - with a long history of repeatedly obstructing Adobe's buisness.

Although i admit that even knowing that outcome apple still may do it. Simply because it will take years tied up in courts to get a sucessful and final outcome against apple, by which time flash would be long dead.
 
Uh ? Fire up Xcode, use the App template to get a UIView app, double click the ViewController.xib and blank it. Build and Run, instant flashlight app.

Please. You don't have the first clue about Flash and Flex developement and you're trying to tell us Apple's tools are more complex ?

Are you being purposefully obtuse. It is about numbers.

You need to run on a Mac, that eliminates 90% of the potential producers of mediocre apps right there.

Even Apple releasing the official SDK for windows would potentially increase the flood of Apps 10X (good and bad).

You don't even have get into the quality of flash apps to see that it would flood the appstore and if the average qualtiy was the same as it is now, there would still be Ten times as much garbage.

This is before we have the quality discussion.

Given that I have read some of the angry would be Flash-to-App producers complain here state that: They were NOT programmers, They don't want to learn Obj-C and they just want to turn some flash into apps. Indicates to me that on average the quality of a open "Flash-to-App" program would be much lower than the average native development.
 
Ok go develop a Window's Program without using .Net, Visual Studio, or any Microsoft supplied API. Go ahead have fun!

Adobe is free to target other phones if they want (ie they have a choice just like a developer or a customer has one)

If you want to develop an iPhone/iPad app the learn Obj-C and Cocoa touch.

Again, my argument isn't a Window's v's Mac one. I have no issue with the price of apple products or the history of product availability for Macs and PCs.

My problem lies in the way apple seeks to tie developers into a restrictive environment, which is enshrined in an "our ball, our rules" sort of playground mentality.

I dislike it because it has the potential to backfire hugely on apple and hurt their products. If the milk turns sour for some reason and developers are driven to another platform like android then there is even less incentive for them to stick it out on the prison of a platform that is iPhone OS.
 
Are you being purposefully obtuse. It is about numbers.

You need to run on a Mac, that eliminates 90% of the potential producers of mediocre apps right there.

Even Apple releasing the official SDK for windows would potentially increase the flood of Apps 10X (good and bad).

You don't even have get into the quality of flash apps to see that it would flood the appstore and if the average qualtiy was the same as it is now, there would still be Ten times as much garbage.

And you're being paranoid. You also don't know much about programming it seems. Running on a Mac eliminates 90% of producers period, be it quality or crap, you say so yourself in the next sentence.

If the quality is the same as now, there would be the same percentage of garbage to quality. Tools don't make garbage, people make garbage. To think otherwise is either blind devotion to Apple or plain ignorance of the subject matter.

The fact is these tools do exist right now and are in use (Novell's Monotouch, Unity 3D, Macruby, etc..) and the garbage to quality ratio of the app store hasn't changed. It's still 85% garbage. A flash packager wouldn't change this.

Ok go develop a Window's Program without using .Net, Visual Studio, or any Microsoft supplied API. Go ahead have fun!

Wait, are you trying to say this would be hard or are you being ironic and pointing out that it's very easy to write GUI apps in Windows. Seriously, if you really believe that those are your only options, I can start naming a few...
 
...
If you want to develop an iPhone/iPad app the learn Obj-C and Cocoa touch.

Unity + Xcode lets the same work be done in a TINY fraction of the same time. It provides physics and a zillion other things that would take many months to write from scratch. The massive cost to do so can be prohibitive for small indie game developers. They’d be risking way too much, with no marketing machine to make sure they recoup their losses.

Often, without Unity, the same game COULD be made... by Gameloft or Electronic Arts. Not by one person or a small team.

And by allowing rapid-development, it also makes it easy to tweak and refine and playtest early on, resulting in more creative, better games than that same developer could possibly create with Xcode alone.

Unity is of great benefit to the App Store. A ton of great indie talent (and developer trust) would be lost without it.
 
Are you being purposefully obtuse. It is about numbers.

You need to run on a Mac, that eliminates 90% of the potential producers of mediocre apps right there.

Grow up. It is actually possible, although not accepted under the TOC, to run the SDK on a PC via a number of methods and I'm sure some app developers do.

The SDK isn't officially available on windows because it uses part of the OSX enviornment that are not natively available on a windows machine.
 
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