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How much $$ would it be to change the middleware to make it Apple-Happy?

For whatever reason, the costs may be too high or impractical due to architectural reasons.

if the architectural changes are significant, Adobe wouldn't shoot itself in the foot and not support the features. Really, how many "major" API changes will there be after iPhone OS 4.0 is released.

We all know how long Apple takes to make new changes, lol. With Adobe's access to SDK's ahead of time, they could release updates the same day that Apple does.
 
How much $$ would it be to change the middleware to make it Apple-Happy?

For whatever reason, the costs may be too high or impractical due to architectural reasons.

If middleware support is necessary to make iPhone development worthwhile, then the iPhone has other issues. If a platform is profitable to develop for, companies will make software no matter how difficult it is to develop for (see PS2), and if it's not profitable it won't matter how great it is to develop for (NeXT may be an example for this from what I've read.)
 
I suggest you have a harder look at things like Linux. The opensource community has a fine set of programmers yet they're usually limited to GTK+ or QT, so they're apps immediately look like they're meant for mattel.

What? Linux is a kernel, not a UI.

Surely you must mean, KDE or Gnome looks like crap? If so, have you seen the latest releases of both? Installed Ubuntu 9? It is a nice looking distro.
 
Two things:

1) I don't know why people keep bringing up HTML5 vs Flash in discussions about the new SDK terms of service. This is about native app development, NOT web development.

2) I find it incredible that, by referring to the Gruber explanation and finding it insightful, part of Steve Jobs' explanation is essentially this: "We want to force developers to develop separately for the iPhone so that the same apps won't be easily available on other platforms". I am probably considered almost an Apple fan boy by my friends but, as a developer, I can't help but to be very offended by this.
 
If middleware support is necessary to make iPhone development worthwhile, then the iPhone has other issues. If a platform is profitable to develop for, companies will make software no matter how difficult it is to develop for (see PS2), and if it's not profitable it won't matter how great it is to develop for (NeXT may be an example for this from what I've read.)

Its called sharing existing software components. Nothing wrong with that. I'd rather write component A once instead of having to re-invent the wheel many times. It saves on time and money.
 
Blindness

Crappy tools facilitate the existence of crappy developers.

Flash is a shining example of that. Now imagine adding another layer in between the crappy flash developer, crappy flash, and the iPhone.

I am old school in thinking that programmers need to know how to program and not just drag widgets around.

Sorry, I normally lurk here, but this statement just made me have to stand up and be counted.

Little intro - I am one of those dreaded Flash developers, and yes I was kind of looking forward to seeing what Adobe's Packager would be like. I'm not too bothered that it's likely a no-go now, I'll just get on and learn a new language to add to my arsenal.

Now onto the guts of my post. You clearly have no idea what Flash development entails. I never use the Flash IDE to develop, and just use open-source tools and the Flex SDK to compile swf's. You are clearly lacking any knowledge of the OOP basis of ActionScript 3, and as such should not make sweeping staments like this.

I am intrigued to see where this ends up. I too hate seeing bad Flash apps (primarily ads but many others besides), I also hate that the Flash PLayer on the Mac sucks in comparison to Windows (that is Adobe's fault not Apples) but the functionality that a swf offers is beyond what HTML5 is capable of on the vast majority of client browsers - yes I've seen Quake 2 in HTML5 but come on, that's not ready for mass market yet (both in terms of bugginess, but primarily in terms of the hoops you have to jump through to get it working. That said, the fact that an Adobe Packaged iPhone app would not be able to load in swf assets at runtime - pretty much a prerequisite for most of the coding I do, where external swf's are used as Class libraries to modularise and allow mutliple localised versions of the same app to be maintained - would have meant it was a toy feature for me.

Rant over, out with the Objective-C books and XCode. There's nowt to scary or unfamiliar looking in it for me
 
I find it incredible that, by referring to the Gruber explanation and finding it insightful, part of Steve Jobs' explanation is essentially this: "We want to force developers to develop separately for the iPhone so that the same apps won't be easily available on other platforms". I am probably considered almost an Apple fan boy by my friends but, as a developer, I can't help but to be very offended by this.

Web apps will make apps easily available on other platforms. But people were complaining about that saying they want native apps.

They get native apps, now they want the ability to have the same bland boring vanilla apps look and feel and experience that exist on all the other devices. The crap devices that people are leaving in droves to get the iPhone.

I don't want apps that work average on N95+Nexus One+iPhone etc. I want apps that work awesome on the iPhone. Anything else, I don't care about. Same goes for most iPhone owners I'd imagine.
 
if the architectural changes are significant, Adobe wouldn't shoot itself in the foot and not support the features. Really, how many "major" API changes will there be after iPhone OS 4.0 is released.

We all know how long Apple takes to make new changes, lol. With Adobe's access to SDK's ahead of time, they could release updates the same day that Apple does.

That would take a lot of comitment from ADOBE to fix and release very quickly.

How long did it take Adobe to produce Intel versions of their software?
How long did it take them to make Photoshop and the rest of their tools Cocoa based?
How long did it take them to make the CS set 64 bit?
Apple has been complaining about flash for several years to adobe, and they have yet to correct the issues.

The above are the meat and potatoes of Adobe, where they make all the money, and they still do not move fast.

Why would they move fast for a bug that only affects iPhone users?

Not likely they will do that or even keep up with the iPhone APIs.

it maybe a long time for a developer to correct an issue since the bug could be in Apple API, in the iPhone, In the code written by the developer, in the code written by the Adobe tool, or in one of the Adobe APIs.

Mean time iPhone users have to live with the bug for 6 months or more.
 
Its called sharing existing software components. Nothing wrong with that. I'd rather write component A once instead of having to re-invent the wheel many times. It saves on time and money.

If you want apps that run best on each platform you still need to optimize for that platform and change some of the code to work with it's UI and other APIs.
 
So Apple will ban almost all EA games because they ALL use internal libraries developed by EA for multi platform support?

Let's see if there are some double standards here....
 
I'm suprised so few people have mentioned the apple exclusion of 3rd party cross compilers means developers are still locked into owning apple macs in order to develop products for the iphone. The flash compiler would finally have enabled PC based production of apps.

Steves latest comments do little to placate my growing sense of unease with apples stratergy. Never the less, this looks set to be a big show down in the mid to long term and like all good shown-downs there are two sides to this story, both of them probably in the wrong if we're being honest with ourselves -

Adobe are charging extortionate amounts for products that have hardly changed in 5 years (photoshop), and in the case of flash are probably acting more as an anchor to progress than a driving force. They just want to keep riding the gravy train.

And so is Apple. Both have lowered prices BTW. After effects alone used to be 3,000. And let's see, Adobe updates all the Apps in it's suites to modern tech. Apple has yet to even address Blu Ray or even update DVDSp in 5 years. Adobe has made huge changes to AE, PS, Illustrator everything. If you're nit a power user you wouldn't know it.

Tell ya what, let's see how Monday pans out. I'm betting the integration of 3d modeling in PS and animation in AE is going to leap forward. CS4 just toted with painting 3d models in PS and AE could animate them and use the lights,etc. Illustrator got some basic 3d tools as well and might move that way too. I don't know much about the audio stuff, but I assume Encore's blu Ray tech will move forward and Premiere will get better but nobody cares.
 
We’ve been there before, and intermediate layers between the platform and the developer ultimately produces sub-standard apps and hinders the progress of the platform.

Yah, can anyone say CIDER?
 
Bye Bye Iphone

As a developer, I really appreciated the 3rd party tools becoming available like MonoTouch. Anybody that thinks CoCo and Objective C are great development environments needs their head examined. A developer can make a bad application in Obj. C just as he can in Flash. If Apple wants to prevent the flow of "CrapWare" then they should have some clear rules about UI, and Features etc. that Apps need to support... not what tools get used.

Android... here I come
 
70% of iPhone developers said that they are planning to release versions of their apps also for Android and others.

Of course Apple doesn't want that. So they forbid EVERYTHING that makes it easier for developers to develop for multi platforms, including layers, cross compilers and libraries. This way the developer will only use XCode and Obj-c and direct API functions and that way it'll be much harder to port his app to another platform. And Apple hopes that it will be so hard that he doesn't even think about porting its stuff.
 
If you want apps that run best on each platform you still need to optimize for that platform and change some of the code to work with it's UI and other APIs.

If its middleware - which is what we are talking about...

"Originally Posted by JustSomeDude
If middleware support is necessary to make iPhone development worthwhile, then the iPhone has other issues.

the middleware shouldn't care / know about about the GUI layer.

Yes, I'd want an iPhone app to look like an iPhone app, not like something else, likewise an OSX app should look like an OSX app.
 
That .NET cross compiler goes in exactly the same basket. Them poor .NET boyz is gonna have to actually learn to write an iPhone app now. Instead of putting in the barest, most minimal effort possible out of spite from the company embracing Apple tech instead of letting them stay in their Microsoft-only, Microsoft-everywhere comfort zone.

Sorry this is just factually wrong. The MonoTouch C# API's are just the Cocoa APIs in a provided C# friendly way. They are iPhone Specific. They don't let you port your IPhone bits to any other phone they are locked into Apple.

The MonoTouch guys have released new product within a week of Apple releasing new Beta SDKs. This product allows access to almost all the Apple APIs and has a goal of doing exactly that.

They do let you write in a modern auto garbage collected state of the art easy to use language. They do let you take back end code and bring it to iPhone in a timely manner.

If you are an Enterprise developer it does let your C# developers take code and and skills and bring it to iPhone.

It does Help all those 1000's of companies writing Development tools bring them to iPhone... Currently Apple has next to no commercial 3rd party development tools on either Mac or iPhone.
 
There are an abnormal amount of people trying to use logic drenched in fallacy to try beef up their arguments. I wish it were easier to get it through thick heads.

The App Store is thriving on tons and tons of amazing apps written using Apple's native code and tools. Half of these posters make it sound like developers need these alternative compilers to thrive, or their demise will be at stake.

It sadly comes down to: "I'm really lazy. I need something else to do my work for me." -or- "I just don't have the time, but I still want a piece of the pie."

Dedication: If you want to write apps, learn how to code them using the way that is intended.

Apple put out its new SDK with a lot of new performance tools and APIs. These allow the app to take advantage of the system's hardware and software in the way that was intended - with integrity in mind. Apple wants great apps on their platform. How else will they continue to pull market share in the way that they are now? They're going to crush any loopholes just to make sure that their platform stays as solid as it has been.

Steve Job is stopping the war before it begins. You could say development could go either way if these alt. compilers continued to dip into the iPhone market, but why take the chance on something that could potentially dwindle the shine the app store gleams?

Apple acknowledges that there is a "gold mine" in app development for its iPhone / iPod Touch / iPad, and hosts their development tools for free at developer.apple.com - including tons and tons of documentation to help with code writing. They want things to be done right - the first time. He even alludes to this during his Multitasking presentation.

Apple's interpretation of "making it easier" would mean getting the work done right when the work is being done. If a developer doesn't want to be involved with the dedication required to use this platform, then they don't deserve the gold it offers them.
 
if the architectural changes are significant, Adobe wouldn't shoot itself in the foot and not support the features. Really, how many "major" API changes will there be after iPhone OS 4.0 is released.

We all know how long Apple takes to make new changes, lol. With Adobe's access to SDK's ahead of time, they could release updates the same day that Apple does.

Adobe snubbed Apple and a large portion of their own customers a long time ago when they decided to concentrate of Windows development ahead of Mac development. Since then they still favor the Windows platform over Mac with their releases, and from what I understand that includes the Flash plug-in. This all shows a lack of commitment to Apple's products and platforms.

From what I can tell Adobe is not in the inner circle of developers that have early access to the dev kit and OS updates. This means that there is a good chance that Adobe will be catching up with every release. Given the above history of Adobe's behavior and the fact that the flash dev environment is aimed at cross platform development why should Apple allow them onto the platform with the development environment when it will not help Apple's products in the long run.

Remember that IBM's OS/2 "Ran Windows Better than Windows" when it was released, and was possibly one of the best OS's available at the time for a desktop platform. However, since it ran Windows so well the developers just continued to develop windows applications and never moved over to OS/2 native apps, which in a large degree lead to the demise of the OS/2 platform.

If Apple supports a cross development environment that is not on par with Apple's, does not support the latest APIs, and is used to produce applications that run no better and possibly worse on Apple's products (and given Adobe's history above that is likely) then Apple would be shooting themselves in the foot. This would potentially put the fate of the iPhone and iPad in the hands of another company that does not have a steak in the continued success of Apple's products because Adobe's product is also used to develop software for Apple's competition.
 
editorial opinion...

I certainly can understand that apple wants to protect its platform...

But they are playing a dangerous game. It can be argued that, as a whole, apple's actions are uncompetitive and hurt consumers, could arguably lead to higher app prices accross all platforms (including iPhone) and will likely end up in court.

Imagine if Microsoft did that on Windows (C#, C++ only... or whatever other language MS wants to support), and ends up killing Java (for example). There are nuances, but it's more or less the same situation.

This'll go to court, maybe even as an antitrust issue. not good in terms of PR.
 
Just wanted to clarify.... Adoby is not providing an IDE like in your comparison. They are providing a layer that is common to all phones. Developers use this layer to write the code so it can run on iPhone, Android and anything else.

In my opinion there are several issues here:
1) Programmer not commited to the iPhone platform
2) Programmer wants one program to run everywhere just like the promise of Java (run anywhere) which did not work well, tends to cater to the lowest denominator.
4) Because of 1 and 2 above, the programmer is not interested in learning the iPhone APIs and the Apple provided tools.
5) Apple is interested in iPhone developers also being Mac deveopers which is another reason they want the developers to learn the tools.
6) The layers added by the Adobe environment are not likely to keep up with changes made in the iPhone APIs so they will rarely be taking advantage of better APIs and new capabilities.
7) The way the code is produce may interfere with the Apple way of doing multitasking and may in turn drag all the other applications down and drain the battery.
8) Additional layers makes applications bigger, also may introduce additional security risks.
9) When issues arrise, it is difficult to tell if the problem is with the iPhone, Apple's APIs, the programmer code, or Adobe code. This results is longer time to repair the issue and Adobe may take months to correct an issue. This can easily cause the developers all sorts of headaches and lose customers, but today they don't seem to have taken that into consideration.

I think the key here is: Is the developer a dedicated iPhone developer or do Is the developer going to write for all other phone also?
Is the developer willing to learn the tools and produce optimal code?
Is the developer going to keep up with the API and correct bugs as quickly as possible?

Ugh. I really think that the manner Apple wants developers to write will typically allow for the best programs, but I have to argue for not having these restrictions because the Apple way will not *always* be the best. Sometimes, maybe a good portion of the time(I don't know since I'm a windows developer not an iPhone developer), the different manners will produce equivalent programs. Many programs just aren't that complex technically, in terms of middleware or API needs.

I think issues you mentioned aren't dependent upon middleware or language:
1. Programmers can be uncommitted to the iPhone even if they're going Apple approved route. Most programs only require a small amount of the API and thus don't really require that much commitment from the programmer.
2. Since the iPhone market is already healthy, lowest common denominator apps shouldn't be an issue - they will fail compared to apps optimized for the iPhone. An app can be written using middleware and still be optimized for the iPhone.
3.
4. If using middleware, programmers only need to know what is necessary to optimize for the iPhone. Some middleware will have code for platform specific optimizations.
5.Programmers can use middleware and other languages to write for the Mac too.
6.If they don't keep up, and the api in question is important, then the middleware will fail because of competitors that don't use the middleware. This means middleware companies will be fairly responsive. Middleware companies have these issues between various versions of windows - the succesful ones keep up with changes and allow you to optimize for different platforms.
7. Apple simply shouldn't allow these apps in the marketplace. The middleware companies will fix their code to be multitasking friendly.
8. This is really dependent upon the middeware. Good middleware will make your program more secure despite possible increase in code size. This is because, with good middleware, they have experts working on their code that can concentrate on security. This leaves less stuff for the App developer to worry about and possibly get wrong. Most application developers are horrible about security (across all platforms).
9. This is sometimes true. But using middleware can also save a developer time when creating feature, so this is a trade-off.

Additionally, I think people are ignoring the fact the alternative language or middleware could be used just for the business logic. The business logic is the part of the code that should have little to no exposure to the API. This can be cross platform without affecting usability.
 
If you are an Enterprise developer it does let your C# developers take code and and skills and bring it to iPhone.

But this way they can also use the C# code for other platforms. With native obj-c code it's much harder. And Apple doesn't want that developers program for other platforms than the iPhone because the iPhone is the best out there. You don't need to develop for anything else!
 
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