Stop Lion! Let Mac be a Mac.

[dscuber9000]

The future of Apple products are dumbed-down idiot devices for passive users.
I don't think Steve Jobs understands that a lot of the people who use Macs are creative professionals who can handle the complexity and power of a proper operating system.

I'm not purchasing anything Apple until I see any evidence that I'm wrong on this.

I definitely will NOT upgrade to Lion, even if its free. It's not even worth the half our upgrade time.

Seriously apple? How many years did you have to work on this?

Isn't that why they have Final Cut Studio, Logic Studio, etc? From what I saw from Lion, they didn't take away any functionality, they just made everything easier to do. Personally, I can't wait for LaunchPad because opening Finder and scrolling through a list of Applications is a mess. Quite honestly, if Steve didn't mention iOS and LaunchPad didn't look like iOS, I don't think anyone would be complaining. The new Expose (Mission Control I think it is called?) also looks much more improved. No lost functionality. If anything, we gained a standard full-screen mode that I'll definitely be using.

I think people are over-reacting.

 

[Lordedmond]

a different tack

not Apple/mac but

its a good job we did not have the tinternet when we changed from DOS to windows 3 , we that could use DOS were appalled .

we have to progress ,its the way of things

 

[dryjoy]

I just can't understand why people get so worked up about something like this. Noone has any real idea what features may be added to or taken away from Lion before release, and no idea what Lion will actually be like to use in the real world.

If you hate it after it comes out and you've tried it, then fair enough - bitch and moan all you like, but it seems such a waste of time and so negative to get all worked up about something that you currently have no real idea about what it will be like to use.

 

[RELOAD911]

Mission Control actually makes me miss good old pre-SnowLeopard Expose even more. Uh, I think I'm feeling too nostalgic, gonna go get my fix of Dune 2.

 

[Animacnut]

Isn't that why they have Final Cut Studio, Logic Studio, etc? From what I saw from Lion, they didn't take away any functionality, they just made everything easier to do. Personally, I can't wait for LaunchPad because opening Finder and scrolling through a list of Applications is a mess. Quite honestly, if Steve didn't mention iOS and LaunchPad didn't look like iOS, I don't think anyone would be complaining. The new Expose (Mission Control I think it is called?) also looks much more improved. No lost functionality. If anything, we gained a standard full-screen mode that I'll definitely be using.

I think people are over-reacting.

I second this, yes macs are and very much have been the realm of creative professionals. However, how is Apple supposed to grow as a company if they only cater to one, notably small, portion of the market. What makes a mac so great, Lion or not, is that out of the box you have a machine that, for all intensive purposeless, can do practically anything you want, with few if any expensive upgrades.

While this may not be a big deal for the owner of a Mac Pro, the average user is not going to own a Mac Pro. The will own a iMac, Mac Mini, MacBook Air, MacBook or MacBook Pro; all of which are not easily upgradeable. In doing this the useful life of the Mac for the average user is greatly lengthened, thus making the large purchase price easier to swallow.

 

[George Knighton]

Steve Jobs talk about Lion scared me. His staff and the young guys have really messed it up. This start to look like a kindergarten.

This is nothing else like playing around with people that seriously work with their computers. If you want to play do it with iPad, or a new iKid.

OSX10.6 and now iPhoto11 have failed and to put a lot of funny interface in Lion will not help.

Stop fore a while and think it over please.

thronborg

Although I'm not in as big a panic about it as you seem to be, it is hard to escape the feeling that parts of the visual presentation resembled some very old Windows ideas a little too closely.

And when I refer to old Windows ideas, I mean way back to like Windows 3.11 For Workgroups, stuff like that.

The iOS users seem to want to get their icons off the desktop/home screen, and the OSX people seem to want to get them *on* the desktop.

I dunno....

its a good job we did not have the tinternet when we changed from DOS to windows 3 , we that could use DOS were appalled .

Wow. I remember that.

But I also remember the Atari-Commodore War.

 

[Mackilroy]

Aha... Of course not. But to release a public version that deletes the customers files is new. No matter if they release a fix. THIS IS NOT ALLOWED 2010,NO WAY!.

You have every right to expect an application that doesn't delete your files, but I'll note that Apple does test these – it's not as if they simply release apps into the wild without any concern for their users.

Answer
It obviously that you have not seen iPhoto11. The biggest, (my view) is the lack of sending a batch of photos, neither can you send them in smaller files than original, and not without the silly book design. Read more at:
http://forum.hardmac.com/index.php?showtopic=9147

I have, actually. There's always ways around that – is it less convenient? Yes. But still possible.

Answer
If Apple sell iLife11, a package including 4 apps. and release the package as "Incredible NEW iLife11". Then 99.9% of the user just think that. If they sell them as stand alone apps its ok, but Apple dont. You cant buy just iPhoto. Its a odd view you have, i wonder in what business you are?

As has been pointed out, you'll be able to buy the iLife apps separately upon launch of the Mac App Store.

What business am I in? None currently, I'm an engineering student.

Answer
Yes you are right, all users have a lot of choices today. Regarding apps, instead of iPhoto you can use Picasa, Shobox, Aperture, Lightroom, Microsoft Expression etc. But the OS we are dependent of and cant choose. And the Apps we buyed from them must be trusted.

Downgrade man 2.

You can not upgrade or switch to Windows if you're worried about the direction Apple is taking. Updates are not mandatory. You always have a choice.

 

[karsten]

Seriously apple? How many years did you have to work on this?

they've had ios priorities i think the last few years.

 

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

The future of Apple products are dumbed-down idiot devices for passive users.
I don't think Steve Jobs understands that a lot of the people who use Macs are creative professionals who can handle the complexity and power of a proper operating system.

I'm not purchasing anything Apple until I see any evidence that I'm wrong on this.

I definitely will NOT upgrade to Lion, even if its free. It's not even worth the half our upgrade time.

Seriously apple? How many years did you have to work on this?

I will purchase something if I think it will be worth it given an expected lifetime of three years.

I understand how people can be put off by the marketing, but really, Snowleopard has been great. 64-bit almost everything, and, it has all been extremely reliable for me. But, Steve can't sell that to the masses, now can he? It may be a similar situation with Lion, we don't know. Sure, Apple may start destroying what they have built, but, why would they? Something tells me that Apple will add some stuff that will appeal to neophytes, but, allow the rest of us to keep using it the way we have been for the last 6-7 years.

 

[mrsir2009]

I'd buy Lion just for the features they showed in the demo! Just can't wait for the app store for Snow Leopard and the remaining 90% of the Lion features to be revealed

From what I can see, Lion is not locking the Mac down. Sure, in future versions it may, but not Lion.

 

[George Knighton]

From what I can see, Lion is not locking the Mac down. Sure, in future versions it may, but not Lion.

Although I can see the resemblance between some aspects of the presentation and some old Microsoft ideas from long, long ago, I admit that I will almost certainly move to Lion.

My impression of a large minority of Apple OS users is that we have moved to the Mac systems when we are simply tired of tweaking operating systems, and need to get on with the real work of life. I don't see that Lion will compromise this opinion in any way, so I'll be there right beside you.

 

[MattInOz]

The future of Apple products are dumbed-down idiot devices for passive users.
I don't think Steve Jobs understands that a lot of the people who use Macs are creative professionals who can handle the complexity and power of a proper operating system.

Well as a creative professional surely you understand every tool has it's job. You don't use a pencil when you need a pen. The best tools do their job then get out of your way. A hex shaped pencil is better a round one that keeps rolling off the desk.

The roll of the OS is to act a platform to work on. If it can get you to work quicker and keeps you there it's doing it's job.

I mean just think about application updates.
At the moment developers have a number of choices about updates.
When you start the program, stopping you from getting to work.
A little while after you start or some random time, making you stop and restart.
When you quit, stopping you from getting on with the next task or annoying you in the middle of the next task.

Which of these is really that good.

The App store will add the option of dealing as many updates as it can at the same time that you get to choose. Sounds like big potential for an improvement.

Sure maybe as we get more detail it will turn out that it sucks, that there are bad things involved, that dev's aren't going to make use of it due to a bad deal. Just not sure why so many people are going in to this assuming they will be screwed over.

 

[Andeavor]

Some people are afraid of change. I used to be like that, too, but I've learnt to give in and go with the flow since I have no say in what they do to the OS I'm using. If an updated OS breaks applications, then you simply wait until those applications are updated. I went through the same ordeal when Vista came out but I survive with patience.

 

[JKK photography]

Some people are afraid of change. I used to be like that, too, but I've learnt to give in and go with the flow since I have no say in what they do to the OS I'm using. If an updated OS breaks applications, then you simply wait until those applications are updated. I went through the same ordeal when Vista came out but I survive with patience.

I hate to sound like a political commercial, but I do think that this is partially correct.

There are going to be some new UI paradigms behind Lion that haven't really ever been tried in a desktop environment before. That's OK; the desktop market has been pretty stale and slow to react the past couple of years. People have grown complacent in that time, and so any thought of change scares them.

Mission Control alone looks interesting. Apple finally fixed Spaces, or so it seems. Launchpad will be something interesting, as will the inclusion of (hopefully) more robust multitouch gestures. Full screen apps should be optional, so that shouldn't mess with anyone's workflow if they don't like it. Auto saving could become annoying, though I'm sure Apple will allow for some type of version tracking.

Basically, go watch the keynote: OSX isn't dead. It's simply being evolved. The apps that make the platform as great as it is aren't going to change. If they do, it will probably be for the better.

In other words: let's all just wait and see. Jobs repeatedly stated a phrase along the lines of, "We don't have time to show you everything here today, but I'll outline some of the higher up features." I personally take that to mean UI changes, so hopefully more is being done behind the scenes.

 

[chrismacguy]

I hate to sound like a political commercial, but I do think that this is partially correct.

There are going to be some new UI paradigms behind Lion that haven't really ever been tried in a desktop environment before. That's OK; the desktop market has been pretty stale and slow to react the past couple of years. People have grown complacent in that time, and so any thought of change scares them.

Mission Control alone looks interesting. Apple finally fixed Spaces, or so it seems. Launchpad will be something interesting, as will the inclusion of (hopefully) more robust multitouch gestures. Full screen apps should be optional, so that shouldn't mess with anyone's workflow if they don't like it. Auto saving could become annoying, though I'm sure Apple will allow for some type of version tracking.

Basically, go watch the keynote: OSX isn't dead. It's simply being evolved. The apps that make the platform as great as it is aren't going to change. If they do, it will probably be for the better.

In other words: let's all just wait and see. Jobs repeatedly stated a phrase along the lines of, "We don't have time to show you everything here today, but I'll outline some of the higher up features." I personally take that to mean UI changes, so hopefully more is being done behind the scenes.

What the keynote basically said was "Were busy rewriting bits of the underside of OS X 10.7, so we can show you the pretty UI bits that dont rely on that bolted onto OS X 10.6" - Personally Ill be upgrading on Launch day, as I have for every major OS Release while Ive been a Mac User - never had a problem under OS X, in fact the only time I really had issues was making the jump from OS 8 to OS 9.0.4 - it caused a few headaches, but nothing major.

 

[Thunderbird]

Personally, I can't wait for LaunchPad because opening Finder and scrolling through a list of Applications is a mess.

Is that how you open applications? I just use the dock...much easier. LaunchPad seems utterly redundant.

 

[JKK photography]

What the keynote basically said was "Were busy rewriting bits of the underside of OS X 10.7, so we can show you the pretty UI bits that dont rely on that bolted onto OS X 10.6" - Personally Ill be upgrading on Launch day, as I have for every major OS Release while Ive been a Mac User - never had a problem under OS X, in fact the only time I really had issues was making the jump from OS 8 to OS 9.0.4 - it caused a few headaches, but nothing major.

Exactly; they showed the UI off a bit to people who would post it on different web sites where people who don't necessarily care about other changes would see it.

I'll be upgrading on launch day as well.

 

[chrismacguy]

Is that how you open applications? I just use the dock...much easier. LaunchPad seems utterly redundant.

Some of us use enough applications semi-regularly for them not to all fit in the Dock, at least not at a size thats comfortable (and I hate zooming). My list: (App Store, Mail, Safari, iChat, iCal, Address Book, Preview, iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie HD, GarageBand, Cinema Tools, Color, Final Cut Pro, Logic Pro, LiveType, Soundtrack Pro, Motion, DVD Studio Pro, Flash Pro, Dreamweaver, Fireworks, Celtx, TextWrangler, XCode, Interface Builder, Terminal, Messenger, MacTracker, Skype, Pages, Keynote, Numbers, Activity Monitor, Quartz Composer, Photoshop, InDesign, System Preferences, Sims 3, Steam, Firefox, Sketchup, Adobe Reader, Qadministrator, Remote Desktop, MS Remote Desktop and VirtualBox) - Even on my 27" Cinema Display along the bottom having all those in my dock + the 25-30 Windows I Normally have minimized makes it pretty much useless - hence I use the Applications stack (or Spotlight, but generally the stack) to launch many of the apps, while only having the ones I open first in my Dock. The worst part is, I have some other Apps I only use occasionally, which I also use the Applications Stack to get to (WaveBurner, iDVD, iWeb).

 

[Thunderbird]

Some of us use enough applications semi-regularly for them not to all fit in the Dock, at least not at a size thats comfortable (and I hate zooming). My list: (App Store, Mail, Safari, iChat, iCal, Address Book, Preview, iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie HD, GarageBand, Cinema Tools, Color, Final Cut Pro, Logic Pro, LiveType, Soundtrack Pro, Motion, DVD Studio Pro, Flash Pro, Dreamweaver, Fireworks, Celtx, TextWrangler, XCode, Interface Builder, Terminal, Messenger, MacTracker, Skype, Pages, Keynote, Numbers, Activity Monitor, Quartz Composer, Photoshop, InDesign, System Preferences, Sims 3, Steam, Firefox, Sketchup, Adobe Reader, Qadministrator, Remote Desktop, MS Remote Desktop and VirtualBox) - Even on my 27" Cinema Display along the bottom having all those in my dock + the 25-30 Windows I Normally have minimized makes it pretty much useless - hence I use the Applications stack (or Spotlight, but generally the stack) to launch many of the apps, while only having the ones I open first in my Dock. The worst part is, I have some other Apps I only use occasionally, which I also use the Applications Stack to get to (WaveBurner, iDVD, iWeb).

I understand. Would LaunchPad work better for you than the application stack? It would seem to me to take the same number of clicks, and LaunchPad just seems like a 'stack' spread out over the desktop.

 

[Mork]

My two cents...

As a Java developer, I am very concerned (though there are "Java alternatives") that Apple has deprecated Java.

By all rights, Java is, and has been, the #1 programming language out there for a long while. I realize Apple may just be saying that somebody else ("Sunacle") may need to support it, but still...

Add to the Java deprecation, the (possible) dumbing down of the interface in 10.7 where the finder "could" go away, among other "enhancements", and these changes could make it more difficult for power users to get their job done.

I'm just saying .... "could".

Trying to use iPhoto 11, for example, if this is any indication of what's coming, was maddening, bugs or no bugs.

I do not want a giant ipad!

Although I have no way of knowing what will actually be coming, and it may be great, there's still enough been said (and already done with the Java deprecation) to make me start looking at Windows machines again...

I don't like Windows, but it doesn't force me to program in Objective-C (ugh!) or stay up at nights wondering if somebody will eventually step in and support Java.

-------------

Many users have no idea what a hierarchical filing system is, how to open a terminal window and do an "ls", etc.. Fine.

But!!! Please don't take this capability away from those of us who are developers/power users and use this all the time.

Perhaps a "power users mode" would work?

A giant database of everything may be the way things are going (perhaps I'm stuck in an old way of thinking), but I'm not yet convinced.

For a giant database to store everything (no more folders, etc.) I always think about what a raving success the "Registry" is in Windows (NOT!)

Even the experts can't currently agree on where things are going.

So far, only Mission control looks good to me as it fixes the fragmented ways of doing spaces and such in 10.6.x.

This is all unnerving and I'm no longer convinced Apple is headed the same direction, as a software developer and power users, that I want to be.



-- M

 

[ZilogZ80]

the (possible) dumbing down of the interface in 10.7 where the finder "could" go away

do you really think there is any possibility of this actually happening? Possibly it might be pushed to the background (in the same way Terminal is now) but I cannot see it disappearing entirely.

 

[Mork]

do you really think there is any possibility of this actually happening? Possibly it might be pushed to the background (in the same way Terminal is now) but I cannot see it disappearing entirely.

(Good screen name, BTW!)

They actually discussed the finder going away in a screen cast on the Mac World site: (http://www.macworld.com/article/157507/2011/01/mwpodcast228.html)

Listen to this screen cast and you'll hear the experts echo many of the same concerns.

------------------

I'm a little more concerned than some folks perhaps given what Apple has already done to deprecate Java. I have spent many thousands of dollars on Macs (Macs seem to be like cats: you can't have just one...) to find that I still need to run a Windows VM for some programs.

To your question though, I have no idea what Apple is thinking.

I think many Java developers already feel slighted by the "deprecation" decision and after the "Back to the Mac" event, it looks like a giant iPad could be in store (of course you still get to program in Objective C).

I get the idea of making computers more accessible to people, and based on how much time I support users with the same basic concepts over and over (even on the Mac), I see the benefits of simplification.

Still, as someone who runs multiple IDEs for Java development, does database development, runs Photoshop, OpenOffice for lots of documents, and tons of other real software (none of which would work well on an ipad), I continue to be concerned by Apple's great "new ideas" and how they'll affect someone like me who works in the "document model".

Considering how wonderful the Mac currently is, I hope my concerns are unfounded.

Time will tell.

- M

 

[chrismacguy]

(Good screen name, BTW!)

They actually discussed the finder going away in a screen cast on the Mac World site: (http://www.macworld.com/article/157507/2011/01/mwpodcast228.html)

Listen to this screen cast and you'll hear the experts echo many of the same concerns.

------------------

I'm a little more concerned than some folks perhaps given what Apple has already done to deprecate Java. I have spent many thousands of dollars on Macs (Macs seem to be like cats: you can't have just one...) to find that I still need to run a Windows VM for some programs.

To your question though, I have no idea what Apple is thinking.

I think many Java developers already feel slighted by the "deprecation" decision and after the "Back to the Mac" event, it looks like a giant iPad could be in store (of course you can still program in Objective C).

I get the idea of making computers more accessible to people, and based on how much time I support users with the same basic concepts over and over (even on the Mac), I see the benefits of simplification.

Still, as someone who runs multiple IDEs for Java development, does database development, runs Photoshop, OpenOffice for lots of documents, and tons of other real software (none of which would work well on an ipad), I continue to be concerned by Apple's great "new ideas".

Time will tell.

- M

This is why Ive said this before and Ill say it again: The Mac isnt going anywhere, its just going to become a true professional system (While losing Java might be sad, lets be frank, we can just install the Java stuff back anyway - once it finally jumps, it will be brought back by everyone - there are enough people for it to be around on the Mac for years to come), with iOSX for Consumer devices.

 

[Mork]

This is why Ive said this before and Ill say it again: The Mac isnt going anywhere, its just going to become a true professional system (While losing Java might be sad, lets be frank, we can just install the Java stuff back anyway - once it finally jumps, it will be brought back by everyone - there are enough people for it to be around on the Mac for years to come), with iOSX for Consumer devices.

Here here.

I hope you're right!

 

[ZilogZ80]

(Good screen name, BTW!)

Thanks!

They actually discussed the finder going away in a screen cast on the Mac World site: (http://www.macworld.com/article/157507/2011/01/mwpodcast228.html)

Listen to this screen cast and you'll hear the experts echo many of the same concerns.

Thanks for the link. Haven't got time for a 49min video right now, but I may watch it later. None of that is direct from Apple though is it? All conjecture.

I think many Java developers already feel slighted by the "deprecation" decision and after the "Back to the Mac" event, it looks like a giant iPad could be in store (of course you still get to program in Objective C).

I'm sure (read: I hope!) it won't be as bad as all that. I suppose only time will tell though!