Student charged with firebombing SUVs

[Frohickey]

Could someone tell me why you need an SUV when you live in a city?

Its just for the freaking look and powertrip...

These vehicules are such a joke and the marketing around them is ridiculous! I dont know a SINGLE person who as a SUV that does camping or goes in the wood with it.

Its a "Freedom thing"... you wouldn't understand.

...or...

In this country, where people have the freedom to do their thing, until it hurts another person from doing their thing, people can do what they want. So, some people buy and drive SUVs, while other people don't.


There are various justifications people will say when you ask them, but none are required.

 

[jasylonian]

There are various justifications people will say when you ask them, but none are required.

I think that justification for buying an SUV is required. There's no point to driving a vehicle that weighs twice as much as a normal passenger car and consumes more gasoline for no reason. When SUV drivers increase their gas consumption, the increased demand in gasoline drives up prices for everyone else. While wealthier SUV drivers can afford these costs, it effectively taxes the poor people who can't afford to buy newer cars and drive old gas guzzlers to McDonalds for work. Meanwhile, the added weight on our roads and freeways have hiked up repair costs. In addition to all this, has anybody seen the mortality rates associated with SUVs? I can't quote a number, but I can tell you they're higher than normal. If the government were smart, they would tax SUV's up the wazoo... especially Hummers.

 

[MarkCollette]

I think that justification for buying an SUV is required. There's no point to driving a vehicle that weighs twice as much as a normal passenger car and consumes more gasoline for no reason. When SUV drivers increase their gas consumption, the increased demand in gasoline drives up prices for everyone else. While wealthier SUV drivers can afford these costs, it effectively taxes the poor people who can't afford to buy newer cars and drive old gas guzzlers to McDonalds for work. Meanwhile, the added weight on our roads and freeways have hiked up repair costs. In addition to all this, has anybody seen the mortality rates associated with SUVs? I can't quote a number, but I can tell you they're higher than normal. If the government were smart, they would tax SUV's up the wazoo... especially Hummers.

When you advocate increasing taxes on SUVs, I find that hilarious, since part of the reason why SUVs are so popular is the tax loop hole of them being classified as a light truck, which means there are hefty tax exemptions for having an SUV. Just to be clear, I'm fully agreeing with you, it's just that before jacking up taxes, we should probably just remove the existing loop hole.

 

[billyboy]

Some people use them to tow things(boats, 4-wheelers, motorcycles, ect.) as well as kids.

Towing kids. That is interesting. Only in America!

So, do they have a rein draped out the back window for the kids to atttach themselves to? Do they get a set of rollerblades and a mask, or is it run for their lives till the exhaust fumes get them.

Off topic but a friend of mine is a vet and he had to attend to what was once a beautiful white furry Pyrenean mountain dog, it was beautiful until the owners who had it tied off the rear bumper of their Range Rover while they had a picnic jumped in and drove off forgetting the dog was attached. Yuk.

 

[iGav]

People like this really get my back up...

Rather than prison, he should be forced to gain employment, and then from his salary, compensation should be deducted each and every month leaving him with the bare minimal for him to survive and the monies paid to each of his victims until the cost of the damage is covered... however long it takes. That should do it nicely...

 

[MrMacMan]

Some people use them to tow things(boats, 4-wheelers, motorcycles, ect.) as well as kids.

Yes he said IN THE CITY.

If you have a motorcycle your gonna drive it in a city, not tow it.

As for kids... thats what a mini-van is for.


Instead of firebombing (which I agree does more to the enviroment then the acual car would for a year of ownership -- unless you have a hummer, firebomb that POS, in 3 months you do more damage to the envirement then I could blowing up your car several times) I prefer just a normal slash the tires, key the car and bash in all of the windows.


Less jail time... and it doesn't kill the enviroment.



'Hey for our next model of SUV's... lets put a Turret! Something EVERY family of 4 who doesn't tow anything needs!'

 

[iGav]

I prefer just a normal slash the tires, key the car and bash in all of the windows.

you're kidding yes???

 

[zamyatin]

Could someone tell me why you need an SUV when you live in a city?

Its just for the freaking look and powertrip...

These vehicules are such a joke and the marketing around them is ridiculous! I dont know a SINGLE person who as a SUV that does camping or goes in the wood with it.

In any respectable city, a car of any sort is totally unnecessary (Boston, NYC, Philly, San Fran, Chicago, in the USA). In Japan, I have read that less than 1/3 of adults have licenses to drive. In New York City, car ownership rates are 46%, whereas LA has 3x more cars than it has humans.

It seems like operating a car would be fun, if not for the fact that everyone is essentially forced to do it. (As with many things, done by choice, they are fun, done by fiat, they are hateful.)

Transportation freedom in the USA should include the freedom to travel by train, bus, bicycle, on foot or other. Unfortunately, almost every transport dollar spent is on building automobile-only infrastrucuture. Works great for the big companies who get to sell more cars (if you can't encourage people to buy your products, force them to!), sucks for Americans who are getting ever fatter and more asthmatic.

 

[Spizzo]

When SUV drivers increase their gas consumption, the increased demand in gasoline drives up prices for everyone else. While wealthier SUV drivers can afford these costs, it effectively taxes the poor people who can't afford to buy newer cars and drive old gas guzzlers to McDonalds for work.

Meanwhile, the added weight on our roads and freeways have hiked up repair costs.

Ok, first off, let me say i do have an SUV, but i dont live in the city. I bought it so i can tow my boat/dirt bikes, etc... Recently I've had to drive to Seattle a lot and it sucks, payin up the a** for gas, and the fact that it's not exactly small.

But I dont feel that SUV's are driving up the gas prices. I've worked for a US tanker company, and many times, i would see BIG OIL companys moving gasoline/diesel from a big city like LA, or San Francisco, and taking it to the east coast to drive up Oil/gas prices. Or they will slow production on the North Slope/elseware so that they can keep costs up.

I believe the rise in Trucking (Big Rigs) has put a hefty toll on our roads, raising the cost, i doubt it's due to the boom in SUV's. But I could be wrong.

 

[JesseJames]

Okay ya'll. I was watching the Chicago autoshow on TV the other day. All the manufacturers are going after hybrid technology big time. By 2007 expect all of them to offer at least one hybrid vehicle in their model lineups.
To quote Martha Stewart, "It's a good thing.".

If I were President I'd want to see 30% of vehicles on the road to be hybrid and or "green" cars in the next 20-25 years. I think that's do-able.
Especially those darn SUVs that Americans won't give up for anything.
They aren't going away people. They are here to stay.

If all goes well our great grandchildren should be driving the much heralded fuel-cell vehicles by then. Then finally we'll be able to not be too concerned with those damn oil cartels.

 

[digitalgiant]

SUVs are not the problem

Its the big V-8 motors that are the problem. All I ever here is how SUVs are killing the air we breath, what about all the other trucks with the same or larger motors? Or high end sports cars with their big ass motors? What a bunch of lamers........................

 

[ddtlm]

I think some people here need a little perspective. SUV's are wasteful, true. The big ones suck down twice the fuel that a midsized car would, true. But does anyone stop to consider the other ways that energy is wasted every day, and that pollution is generated? Where I live, a lot more diesel is burned every month heating my house than gas is burned powering my car... and you can bet my furnace is not as clean burning as most cars would be. I imagine that hot climates invest a huge amount of electricity on air conditioning.

Additionally, people need to realize that a lot of newer SUV's are creeping up on the fuel economy offered by minivans. For example, Ford's new Freestar van gets 1 MPG better (highway rated) than Honda's all-wheel-drive Pilot. Toyota's all-wheel-drve Highlander gets 1 MPG better than Ford's front-drive minivan. These are not small SUV's, either.

 

[richland]

Yes he said IN THE CITY.

If you have a motorcycle your gonna drive it in a city, not tow it.

Not if you race that motorcycle

 

[MarkCollette]

Ok, first off, let me say i do have an SUV, but i dont live in the city. I bought it so i can tow my boat/dirt bikes, etc... Recently I've had to drive to Seattle a lot and it sucks, payin up the a** for gas, and the fact that it's not exactly small.

But I dont feel that SUV's are driving up the gas prices. I've worked for a US tanker company, and many times, i would see BIG OIL companys moving gasoline/diesel from a big city like LA, or San Francisco, and taking it to the east coast to drive up Oil/gas prices. Or they will slow production on the North Slope/elseware so that they can keep costs up.

I believe the rise in Trucking (Big Rigs) has put a hefty toll on our roads, raising the cost, i doubt it's due to the boom in SUV's. But I could be wrong.

I respect that you know more about the price gouging actions that oil companies undertake to improve their profits, than I do. So, assuming that oil companies are not completely setting the price of oil, but that the market demand sets the price of this commodity, which is how most commodities are priced, then yes, if a sizeable portion of the members of the population started using more gas, then they would drive up demand, and thus prices. But, like you say, that might be overshadowed by supply side shocks, like OPEC or illegal price fixing in the US.

 

[Frohickey]

I think that justification for buying an SUV is required. There's no point to driving a vehicle that weighs twice as much as a normal passenger car and consumes more gasoline for no reason.

Ah, the mantra of the would-be dictator... you need to give a reason/justification for the liberties that you have.

(My apologies if I mischaracterize your point.)

I used to think like the others here about SUVs. Why should they be allowed on the road? Why aren't they paying more to use the road? Why can't we tax them more? Why do they need such a vehicle.

Then I started thinking, its because they have the freedom, WE have the freedom to choose the type of vehicle to drive, and I would not want to take that freedom away from them, because that would mean it would be taking that freedom away from me as well.

These days, when people ask me how I can not be against SUVs, I say "Its a Freedom thing, you wouldn't understand."

 

[Mantat]

Then I started thinking, its because they have the freedom, WE have the freedom to choose the type of vehicle to drive, and I would not want to take that freedom away from them, because that would mean it would be taking that freedom away from me as well.

These days, when people ask me how I can not be against SUVs, I say "Its a Freedom thing, you wouldn't understand."

Wow! Why do you think that vandalising in a park is a criminal act? When the kid 'tag' the wall, he is just expressing his freedom of 'creative art'. Why, oh why should we even think about punishing him? Well, because he is damaging a PUBLIC property. Roads and air are public and the SUV are damaging them seriously.

The freedom argument is one of the most over use word in the US since 9-11. Liberty should not be abused. Remember that it must stops where other people liberty starts. This is a very important point that is too often forgoten.

If you want to fight for liberty, go talk about the liberty enjoyed by the prisoners in Guatanamo (sp?). Or maybe the hundreds who have been detained by the government post 9-11 and who are still in prison without any charges againts them... Or maybe going visit China for a weekend...

Trust me, there are more important fights for feedom than your laughable right to pollute...

 

[jsw]

Wow! Why do you think that vandalising in a park is a criminal act? When the kid 'tag' the wall, he is just expressing his freedom of 'creative art'. Why, oh why should we even think about punishing him? Well, because he is damaging a PUBLIC property. Roads and air are public and the SUV are damaging them seriously.

The freedom argument is one of the most over use word in the US since 9-11. Liberty should not be abused. Remember that it must stops where other people liberty starts. This is a very important point that is too often forgoten.

If you want to fight for liberty, go talk about the liberty enjoyed by the prisoners in Guatanamo (sp?). Or maybe the hundreds who have been detained by the government post 9-11 and who are still in prison without any charges againts them... Or maybe going visit China for a weekend...

Trust me, there are more important fights for feedom than your laughable right to pollute...

OK. Let's see here. First of all, do you have any proof that SUV's cause any more road damage than cars? Are they of a sufficiently greater mass and wheelbase that they are "seriously" damaging them? Assertions are easy to make.

Second, someone earlier was complaining about the "poor tax" imposed by the weathy people who drive SUV's and hike up gas prices. If true, then SUV drivers pay more taxes and therefore have the right to the public services they fund. Arguably, though, the largest number of SUV owners are solidly middle class.

Third, have you any proof that SUV's get any worse mileage than the fume-throwing 25-year-old cars I see others drive? Or that they damage roads more than those behemoths?

Fourth, the "liberty should not be abused" argument is dubious. Where do you draw the line? What is allowable liberty? What do you deem proper?

I live in the Northeast. I have kids and dogs. I need something to transport them safely. This is wrong from your point of view? I like to be able to see traffic ahead of me. Wrong? I like the easier access of a taller vehicle. Wrong? I have a home and often visit The Home Depot and Lowe's to buy items that wouldn't fit in a car. Wrong? Where is your line?

 

[jsw]

The freedom argument is one of the most over use word in the US since 9-11. Liberty should not be abused. Remember that it must stops where other people liberty starts. This is a very important point that is too often forgoten.

In what way does my ownership of an SUV abuse the liberty of others?

 

[Mantat]

Ownership of a SUV doesnt doesnt abuse the liberty of anyone. I said the word 'liberty' was too much abused...

As damaging the road, do they more than 'normal' car because of the weight. BUT this is more relevant in Canada with the freezin / unfreezing of the road, maybe not relevant in the US.

Most people who have a SUV use the 'I need to transport my family safely' argument. First, SUV arent safe do some googling and you will see ( I have no time for this since I am already trying to figure out the size of the internet (see other thread)). A normal car can carry 2 adults and 2-3 kids without any problems. If you need more room, get a mini van! Oh... you dont want a mini van because it doesnt look maleish enought? I think I have touched a point here... People buy SUV because of the look. I have too agree, they look good! Then they try to find justification to buy them... Look at all the ads for SUV, how many people that you know who own an Explorer are going to use it to work in the field or even go out of town with it? Not much... If you want security, you would get a Volvo...

And please explain to me since when middle class people can buy a 40k$ car. I was under the impression that middle class house get about that much in salary.

How can it be dubious to understand where your liberty stops? It has to be one of the easiest test of judgement one can make: we teach it to every kid. Dont do to others what you dont want them to do to you... You being a normal balanced person ( I had a neighbourd who thought listening loud music at 2am was ok).

I am loosing myself here... The point is just that SUV are big poluting cars who give a false sense of security. I will shut myself now, it must be unpatriotic to talk like that about SUV, or it will soon be!

 

[Frohickey]

Ownership of a SUV doesnt doesnt abuse the liberty of anyone. I said the word 'liberty' was too much abused...

I am loosing myself here... The point is just that SUV are big poluting cars who give a false sense of security. I will shut myself now, it must be unpatriotic to talk like that about SUV, or it will soon be!

Having too much liberty is not a bad thing.

I don't have to justify to anyone else (except the wifey) about my vehicle choice. Once you fall into the trap of having to justify what you do, you have given your freedom away to the other person.

As to SUVs being more weight and causing more damage than other cars, thats a dubious assertion made by the Ms. Huffington's of the world. The proper application of gasoline taxes and other vehicle fees are for the maintenance of roads, and emissions control. If larger vehicles use more fuel, then their owners pay more for the road maintenance and air quality services than other vehicles.

The people that are railing on SUVs for their pollutants should clamp down on the landscapers and gardeners instead. Ever had to do a biannual smog check on your gasoline-powered lawnmower? Ever pay registration fees for that? But when was the last time you saw a big name celebrity rail against gardeners, who are most likely non-white, and maybe even illegal aliens? Its the same reason that PETA does not protest against HellsAngels motorcyclists for wearing leather.

 

[jsw]

Ownership of a SUV doesnt doesnt abuse the liberty of anyone. I said the word 'liberty' was too much abused...

We agree on that.

As damaging the road, do they more than 'normal' car because of the weight. BUT this is more relevant in Canada with the freezin / unfreezing of the road, maybe not relevant in the US.

We certainly have the issue here as well, but I'm just unsure that SUV's do appreciably more damage than cars - as opposed to tractor-trailers, which do vastly more damage (without them, though, no fresh groceries...).

Most people who have a SUV use the 'I need to transport my family safely' argument. First, SUV arent safe do some googling and you will see ( I have no time for this since I am already trying to figure out the size of the internet (see other thread)).

Actually, the studies I've seen show that SUV's do very well in accidents with non-SUVs. SUV to SUV, not so great.

A normal car can carry 2 adults and 2-3 kids without any problems. If you need more room, get a mini van! Oh... you dont want a mini van because it doesnt look maleish enought? I think I have touched a point here... People buy SUV because of the look. I have too agree, they look good! Then they try to find justification to buy them... Look at all the ads for SUV, how many people that you know who own an Explorer are going to use it to work in the field or even go out of town with it? Not much... If you want security, you would get a Volvo...

Mini vans do have the same room (or more). However, where I live with my mountain of a driveway, I need 4wd or AWD, which is very expensive in mini-vans. Not that my next vehicle won't be a mini-van, mind you. I just think it's wrong to argue that it's wrong to own an SUV or that it needs to be justified.

And please explain to me since when middle class people can buy a 40k$ car. I was under the impression that middle class house get about that much in salary.

Average US vehicle cost exceeded $30K last year. There are a number of SUV's in that range. My Liberty and Grand Cherokee cost $20K and $25K, respectively.

How can it be dubious to understand where your liberty stops? It has to be one of the easiest test of judgement one can make: we teach it to every kid. Dont do to others what you dont want them to do to you... You being a normal balanced person ( I had a neighbourd who thought listening loud music at 2am was ok).

I am loosing myself here... The point is just that SUV are big poluting cars who give a false sense of security. I will shut myself now, it must be unpatriotic to talk like that about SUV, or it will soon be!

If Bush stays in power here, then yes, likely SUV ownership will be legally required.

Yes, SUV's are big (which, as far as I can tell, isn't a sin), and they pollute more than most new cars. The way to fix that is, as previously noted, with hybrid engines, not by making them illegal.

 

[vwcruisn]

In what way does my ownership of an SUV abuse the liberty of others?

hmm lets see...

I cant see around your vehicle when you are in front of me causing one of the most dangerous blind spots (RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME) that could possible exsist.

When your vehichle hits me in an accident, your bumper lines up with my skull.. I can only hope you never t-bone me.

When you are behind me at night, your headlights blind me, I have to adjust EVERY one of my mirrors down to reduce the glare, causing me to divert attention to the road momentaril. Not only that but now all my mirrors are pointed to the ground and I can't see behind me.

you park in COMPACT parking spaces, and I can't fit my car in between you and the a**hole in the space one over. If I manage to squeeze, I come back to find a huge DING in my door. I can't tell you how much money I have spent fixing dents caused by parking lot dings, usually MUCH too high on my car to be from another car.

Your gas guzzling car helps our foreign dependecy on oil, which leads to unnecessary oil wars that kill my friends and family.

The extra weight of your SUV causes the roads and highways to wear faster (more weight.. more friction... its common sense). Thus my tax money is used faster for these repairs and there is less money to fund other programs, such as widening the damn road so theres not so much traffic.

My car has been backed into 3 times in parking lots by women in SUVs claiming "Your car was so low I did not see it." My reply? Well your vehicle is too high. Each time the damage was over 1000 dollars due to their bumpers lining up much higher than they should on my car. Insurance rates go up as more and more claims get processed, such as these avoidable incidents.


This is just a partial list.

 

[MongoTheGeek]

As damaging the road, do they more than 'normal' car because of the weight. BUT this is more relevant in Canada with the freezin / unfreezing of the road, maybe not relevant in the US.

Most people who have a SUV use the 'I need to transport my family safely' argument. First, SUV arent safe do some googling and you will see ( I have no time for this since I am already trying to figure out the size of the internet (see other thread)). A normal car can carry 2 adults and 2-3 kids without any problems. If you need more room, get a mini van! Oh... you dont want a mini van because it doesnt look maleish enought? I think I have touched a point here... People buy SUV because of the look. I have too agree, they look good! Then they try to find justification to buy them... Look at all the ads for SUV, how many people that you know who own an Explorer are going to use it to work in the field or even go out of town with it? Not much... If you want security, you would get a Volvo...

How can it be dubious to understand where your liberty stops? It has to be one of the easiest test of judgement one can make: we teach it to every kid. Dont do to others what you dont want them to do to you... You being a normal balanced person ( I had a neighbourd who thought listening loud music at 2am was ok).

I am loosing myself here... The point is just that SUV are big poluting cars who give a false sense of security. I will shut myself now, it must be unpatriotic to talk like that about SUV, or it will soon be!

1) Road damage is mitigated by larger tires and less inflated tires.

2) Where is the difference between a minivan and an SUV?

3) On the golden rule argument I want people to get the car they want. So that means by your logic I morally need to get an SUV if I want one.

4) As for false senses of security they have better survivability in gov't crash tests. I will admit a higher level of accidents but I have never seen people in a suburban decapitated by a semi.

 

[Frohickey]

hmm lets see...

I cant see around your vehicle when you are in front of me causing one of the most dangerous blind spots (RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME) that could possible exsist.

When your vehichle hits me in an accident, your bumper lines up with my skull.. I can only hope you never t-bone me.

When you are behind me at night, your headlights blind me, I have to adjust EVERY one of my mirrors down to reduce the glare, causing me to divert attention to the road momentaril. Not only that but now all my mirrors are pointed to the ground and I can't see behind me.

you park in COMPACT parking spaces, and I can't fit my car in between you and the a**hole in the space one over. If I manage to squeeze, I come back to find a huge DING in my door. I can't tell you how much money I have spent fixing dents caused by parking lot dings, usually MUCH too high on my car to be from another car.

Your gas guzzling car helps our foreign dependecy on oil, which leads to unnecessary oil wars that kill my friends and family.

The extra weight of your SUV causes the roads and highways to wear faster (more weight.. more friction... its common sense). Thus my tax money is used faster for these repairs and there is less money to fund other programs, such as widening the damn road so theres not so much traffic.

My car has been backed into 3 times in parking lots by women in SUVs claiming "Your car was so low I did not see it." My reply? Well your vehicle is too high. Each time the damage was over 1000 dollars due to their bumpers lining up much higher than they should on my car. Insurance rates go up as more and more claims get processed, such as these avoidable incidents.


This is just a partial list.

What are you doing tailgating me anyway? Drafting only works in NASCAR, and at greater than 60MPH. If you are in a rush, pass me in the fast lane, where I'm not at, unless I'm passing the guy in the 1970 Toyota belching smoke in the next lane over...

When I hit you in an accident, and its my fault, then you can talk. Otherwise, you don't have a case. We don't arrest people because they have the capability of committing crimes.

waaah... my parents gave me slow-adjusting night vision... get me a waambulance... waaah

If I ding your door, then you can sue me for vandalism. You could always complain to the manager to get the A$$h0le SUV driver to move it. Yes, if you park a big vehicle in a compact spot, you are not fit to drive. There, I said it, there are bad drivers around... same as the non-handicap drivers that park in the handicap, or no parking zones, or fire hydrants... etc.

Unncessary oil wars...that place has not been at peace since before the Romans...

My tax money is used for these repairs, and I pay more gasoline taxes than you do. Plus, the taxes that I spend on gasoline... not my fault that the politicians that WE elected have decided to move it all to the general fund in order to pay for their pet projects like Outreach limo service for seniors, and sex change operations for city employees... also, I've asked for more lanes, but every single time, they turn that lane into a carpool lane that has at most 2 cars, and 10 motorcyclists during rush hour...

Some women belong in the kitchen, pregnant and barefoot...
Some men too.

 

[vwcruisn]

What are you doing tailgating me anyway? Drafting only works in NASCAR, and at greater than 60MPH. If you are in a rush, pass me in the fast lane, where I'm not at, unless I'm passing the guy in the 1970 Toyota belching smoke in the next lane over...

I take it youve never been to LA. Try driving on the 405 and NOT being close to the car in front of you. Oh, and the fast lane here is FULL of SUVs. What about city streets where im not "drafting at 60 miles per hour." I dont have to be TAILGAITING to have my vision obscured by a huge vehicle.

When I hit you in an accident, and its my fault, then you can talk. Otherwise, you don't have a case. We don't arrest people because they have the capability of committing crimes.

Regardless, accidents happen, and everyone knows that. It is irresponsible and very selfish to buy a car knowing you will be safe when your vehicle plows into a smaller car. If everyones car was around the same size, or at LEAST the bumpers lined up and what not, injuries on BOTH ends could be reduced.
[/QUOTE]

waaah... my parents gave me slow-adjusting night vision... get me a waambulance... waaah

Night vision? im not sure what you mean, im talking about adjusting my mirrors so im not blinded. Im not rich and cant afford night vision for my mirrors (whatever that is). Oh and I paid for my car myself (not that its any of your business), what makes you think my parents paid for it?

If I ding your door, then you can sue me for vandalism. You could always complain to the manager to get the A$$h0le SUV driver to move it. Yes, if you park a big vehicle in a compact spot, you are not fit to drive. There, I said it, there are bad drivers around... same as the non-handicap drivers that park in the handicap, or no parking zones, or fire hydrants... etc.

Next time leave a note. Oh, and I dont have time to go find the parking lot manager everytime I park to complain. Sorry.

Unncessary oil wars...that place has not been at peace since before the Romans...

Tell that to my friend who just lost his father a few months ago over there. I doubt that would have happened if Iraq had no oil.