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MarkCollette said:
You're so right, in the end it really comes down to operator error.

I'll tell you guys a story, since for some reason I just keep on taking up space in this thread :) When my brother died of cancer, some of my mother's friends drove down to come to the funeral, to be supportive, etc. Well, there was an elk or something like that in the road, and the wife of the couple swerved to avoid it, then she overcompensated to correct, and rolled the vehicle. The roof crushed in and killed her. ...

FWIW: In late 1998, my wife and I were driving our Dodge Durango in central New York (state), where we lived at the time. Out of nowhere, a large buck (deer) ran in front of us and we hit it dead on. Damage to the vehicle, but none to us. Had we been driving a car, we'd likely have been injured or killed. I point this out because a friend died after hitting a deer with an Accord. So... I'd argue you're more likely to die or get injured hitting a large animal in a car than in an SUV. Usually, there's no real time to react anyway, esp. in areas where the trees are close to the road and stop you from seeing the animal until a split second before they run in front of you.

Also FWIW: I'm buying a Toyota Prius soon simply because I drive 50+ miles a day for work (commute) and the gas prices are terrible. We'll have one SUV (bad weather, trips, wife & kids, etc.) and one death-trap that gets good mileage. At least I've got decent life insurance....
 
MarkCollette said:
Well, there was an elk or something like that in the road, and the wife of the couple swerved to avoid it, then she overcompensated to correct, and rolled the vehicle. The roof crushed in and killed her. Her husband and son survived because they were both asleep, and had their seats reclined. If she wasn't going so fast, or didn't overcompensate, then they'd all be alive today. But, to a lesser extent, maybe they would be too if the vehicle had been made safer. Who knows, but in reality, it was her fault.

If she just drove on straight, she'd be alive, the SUV would be totalled, the insurance company would be paying out to get the SUV replaced, and after the funeral, everyone would be eating elk burgers. :p
 
I once met a Nissan Pulsar whilst going 55 mph in an old Accord (other car was turning left, couldn't see me, etc.). Neither car had airbags (unless I count). We both walked away.

Her insurance company, State Farm, was very nice (accident was not considered my "fault"). They even threw some money at me for lost time, doctor visit, etc. -- basically so I wouldn't manufacture some incapacitating injury and sue them. I guess that must happen a lot.

... Sorry about your brother and mother's friend, MC...
 
jsw said:
Yup. Always so much easier to protest against something than to come up with a legitimate solution.

Interestingly, California did have a "clunker" buy-back program to remove old cars with high tail pipe emissions from the streets. They purchased some 30,000 vehicles before the program ended because of lack of funding.
 
Dros said:
Interestingly, California did have a "clunker" buy-back program to remove old cars with high tail pipe emissions from the streets. They purchased some 30,000 vehicles before the program ended because of lack of funding.

If they resold the cars back to car collectors and restorators, they would have made money. :p
 
MongoTheGeek said:
Don't count on the 70. Don't expect anything close to that. Its probably a handful of arson counts at 5-10 years a pop. If he does the time consecutively he could be out in 5. With appeals and all he might only get the time served.

The Sierra Club will probably get him a lawyer.

A kid here in Eugene, Oregon, got 22 years without parole for burning 3 SUVs in 2000. And that was *before* being branded a "terrorist" meant indefinite detention without any legal rights.

The American legal system has interesting priorities.

http://www.freefreenow.org/


Crikey
 
Crikey said:
A kid here in Eugene, Oregon, got 22 years without parole for burning 3 SUVs in 2000. And that was *before* being branded a "terrorist" meant indefinite detention without any legal rights.

The American legal system has interesting priorities.

http://www.freefreenow.org/


Crikey


thats corporate america for you. dont f*ck with the captialist society or they will f*ck you back. Go ahead and rob and rape and injur, maybe even murder someone and your sentencing will be far less. As you said.. the us has some interesting priorities.

oh and btw, blowing up some SUVs is NOT terrorism. whoever the genius was that decided that should be firebombed. arson is one thing but to lump that person with someone who would, say, fly an airplane loaded with people into an occupied high rise, is ridiculous.
 
Crikey said:
A kid here in Eugene, Oregon, got 22 years without parole for burning 3 SUVs in 2000. And that was *before* being branded a "terrorist" meant indefinite detention without any legal rights.

The American legal system has interesting priorities.

http://www.freefreenow.org/


Crikey

I took a look at that. It sounds like he had a crappy lawyer, who would rather martyr him than do what was best for his client. The DA would have probably been happy with 5 for destruction of private property along with restitution.

As for the circumstantial evidence, that include such things as fingerprints, being spotted running from the scene with an empty gas can screaming "I did it" and videotape of walking into said area with a full gas can. The weight of the evidence is for the most part irrelevant because the boy confessed.
 
vwcruisn said:
oh and btw, blowing up some SUVs is NOT terrorism. whoever the genius was that decided that should be firebombed. arson is one thing but to lump that person with someone who would, say, fly an airplane loaded with people into an occupied high rise, is ridiculous.

Frohickey, time to repeat your dictionary definition of terrorism.

This person is in the same category as any terrorist. Of course, the goals, means and results were different, but this person has allegedly committed destructive acts in an attempt to achieve a political goal. An arsonist who targets unoccupied synagogues is likely to get stricter punishment than one who torches random shacks, and deservedly so. Likewise, destruction of, say, petrochemical refineries or power substations by a group to "achieve" a political point -- even if no one is injured or killed -- is still terrorism.
 
vwcruisn said:
oh and btw, blowing up some SUVs is NOT terrorism. whoever the genius was that decided that should be firebombed. arson is one thing but to lump that person with someone who would, say, fly an airplane loaded with people into an occupied high rise, is ridiculous.

Hmmm. Wanton destruction of property with the goal of inspiring political change (i.e., blowing up SUV's to get them banned). Sure sounds like terrorism to me.

Iraq war same as WWII? No. Both wars? Yes. SUV destruction same as 9/11? No. Both terrorism? Yes.
 
vwcruisn said:
oh and btw, blowing up some SUVs is NOT terrorism. whoever the genius was that decided that should be firebombed.

And now you're advocating terrorizing people based on their descriptions of what is clearly a destructive crime.

I assume you would be willing to firebomb the poster? You advocate firebombing as a proper means of refutation?

Well, there are certainly numerous groups out there who would be proud to have you as a member. MacRumors is not one of them. Please go away and play with your fellow ______ [fill in the blank with your extremist group].
 
digitalgiant said:
Its the big V-8 motors that are the problem. All I ever here is how SUVs are killing the air we breath, what about all the other trucks with the same or larger motors? Or high end sports cars with their big ass motors? What a bunch of lamers........................


the size of the engine is a big deal, but so is the size of the car. sure a mustang has a 4.6 litre engine, but its moving around a lot less mass than the same engine does in a ford expedition, and 4.6L is pretty small for suvs that size. A big engine is a big engine, and uses a lot of gas, but the heavier the car, the more energy it has when its moving, and therefore the more energy you have to put into it in the form of gas.

an efficient vehicle is one that moves someone around, without wasting a lot of energy on moving the vehicle around itself. Its all about the ratio of the mass of what you want to move around to the mass of what you're using to move it around.
bikes are pretty good about that, a 30lb bike can make a 200lb guy move pretty fast. most cars can only carry a lot less than what they weigh themselves. and even big 3 ton trucks which are capable of carrying a lot of stuff usually end up carrying only about 200lbs of wasteful human.
 
Another eco-terrorist caught!!!!

Fallen ‘Tre’ - FBI Calls Arrest of Alleged Eco-Terrorist a ‘Big Capture,’ But Will It Affect Movement?

March 23— The FBI's capture of a prominent figure in what it calls the nation's worst domestic terrorist threat may do little to slow the radical environmental movement known as the Earth Liberation Front, federal authorities acknowledge.

The suspect, Tre Arrow, also known as Michael Scarpitti and numerous other pseudonyms, is a charismatic figure who has run for political office before running from the law after being accused as the ringleader in a pair of environmentally motivated arson attacks.

"It's a very big capture for us," said Beth Anne Steele, spokeswoman for the Portland, Ore., office of the FBI. "[The suspect has] been indicted in two firebombing cases here. He's certainly very important to us. It remains to be seen what broader effect the arrest will have."

Arrow was arrested March 13 by police in Victoria, British Columbia, after he allegedly tried to shoplift a pair of boltcutters, even though he had $185 in his pockets, authorities said.

"When you're on the run wanted by the FBI, maybe you should just buy the boltcutters," joked Officer Rick Anthony, spokesman for the Victoria police department.

Arrow was being held in a Victoria jail, while the FBI, Victoria police and Canadian immigration officials sorted out how extradition would proceed. Anthony and Steele both said there was no timetable for his return to the United States.

"We want to get him back to those guys [the FBI] as quickly as possible," Anthony said.

No Leadership, Just a Shared Ethos

It was the second such arrest this month. On March 9, the FBI nabbed Billy Cottrell, 23, of Pasadena, Calif., on charges of arson, using a destructive device and conspiracy in a series of firebombings last August at an SUV dealership and of several vehicles at private homes that caused damages worth an estimated $2.3 million.

Cottrell, a California Institute of Technology student, was tracked down after allegedly sending anonymous e-mails to the Los Angeles Times claiming responsibility for the fires that destroyed or damaged 125 SUVs.

But will the busts matter? Law enforcement and others who monitor the radical environmental movement have long recognized the non-hierarchical structure of the ELF, which has claimed responsibility for causing more than $100 million worth of damage since 1997.

ELF has no leadership structure; individuals or small cells carry out actions on their own. The only link is a shared belief that radical action is needed to stop development, logging, pollution, genetic engineering research and anything else seen as threatening to the environment.

(((Remind you of how another terrorist group operates?)))

In the hundreds of incidents the group has claimed responsibility for, no one has been killed and only a handful of people have been injured, and postings on the group's Web site have generally expressed the belief that all life is sacred and actions should be carried out in such a way as to minimize the risk of injury.

Does Arrest Show Vulnerability?

If the arrests have any effect on the movement's adherents, some observers say, it will likely only be psychological.

"For the last several years, inciters and eco-terror supporters have focused on the fact that so few have been arrested — only a handful of those responsible have been brought to justice," said Kelly Stoner, the director of Stop Eco-Violence, a group that monitors the ELF and other radical environmentalists.

"This might change that impression of invulnerability," she said.

But she and law enforcement acknowledged the arrest was the result of Arrow's carelessness, rather than his being tracked down.

Scholars who study the movement say they expect no decrease in the activity of radical environmentalists.

"The arrests will have zero effect," University of Texas philosophy professor Steve Best said. "It's too decentralized of a network."



Bron Taylor, a professor of religion at the University of Florida, said he has the impression, based on interviews he has done over the years with people claiming to be ELF activists, the arrests will have no impact whatever.

He noted, however, several high-profile arrests and convictions in the late 1980s seemed to slow down the "monkey-wrenching" movement, which was a kind of precursor to the ELF.

"It seems some activists concluded they couldn't do the Earth any good behind bars and they developed different tactics," he speculated.

Yet one ELF activist, now serving a 22-year prison sentence for an arson attack that destroyed three SUVs at a Eugene, Ore., car dealership, has not allowed prison to stop his activism. Jeffery "Free" Luers has written extensively for alternative media and has a Web site.

‘Leader and Instigator’

Arrow is accused of playing leading roles in the April 2001 firebombing at a sand and gravel company in Portland that destroyed three concrete trucks and did more than $200,000 worth of damage, as well as in the June 2001 arson at a logging company in Eagle Creek, Ore., that damaged two logging trucks and a front loader.

Three others have pleaded guilty to involvement in the logging company arson, and according to court documents, one of them, Jacob Sherman, cooperated with investigators and told them Arrow, was "the leader and instigator" and had "groomed" him as an environmental activist.

The role of exemplar was one Arrow seemed to play for many in the Northwest, an area considered to be sympathetic to the philosophy of "deep ecology" espoused by ELF.

"In the Portland area he was fairly famous for his dedication and his activities for several years," former ELF spokesman Craig Rosebraugh said. "I would think he inspired a lot of people because he showed a strong presence. Everything from his tree sits to his happiness and the way he lived life." He drew attention to himself and to his cause in July of 2000 with a highly visible form of tree-sitting.

Instead of perching in an old growth giant threatened by logging deep in the woods, he climbed the facade of the building where the U.S. Forest Service has its offices in Portland and made himself at home on a 9-inch-wide ledge for 11 days.

After Run for Congress, Canada Became Refuge

The popularity he gained from that protest turned him from being just another of the city's counter-culture eccentrics, perhaps recognizable for his habit of going barefoot, into an energizing public figure.

He used that public attention in a run for Congress on the Pacific Green Party ticket in the fall of 2000, receiving more than 15,000 votes — a little more than 6 percent — despite having virtually no funding.

"Because he gained notoriety for the window-ledge sit, he was able to gain quite a bit of public relations just from that for his campaign," Rosebraugh said. "The goal was just to try to get more education out about the situation of the environment and I think he did that."

Police believe Arrow, who was calling himself Joshua Murray when he was arrested, was able to convince numerous people across Canada to let him stay with them, and it appears he was in the country for nearly the entire 18 months he was on the run, Anthony said.

He was found with about two dozen names and phone numbers, and some of those people told police that he had stayed with them, though it is not yet clear whether any of them knew his true identity, Anthony said.

"He tries to come across as this vegan, 'I'm just an Earth-loving person,' but we don't buy that," Anthony said. "After all, bolt cutters are one of the primary tools in an eco-terrorist's tool box."

ho_scarpitti_040316_nh.jpg

Tre Arrow, also known as Michael Scarpitti, was on the FBI's most wanted list for more than a year as a fugitive accused of two arson attacks linked to the Earth Liberation Front.
Handout

===========

Maybe he can share a cell with Billy Cottrell. :p
 
Frohickey said:
Fallen ‘Tre’ - FBI Calls Arrest of Alleged Eco-Terrorist a ‘Big Capture,’ But Will It Affect Movement?

March 23— The FBI's capture of a prominent figure in what it calls the nation's worst domestic terrorist threat may do little to slow the radical environmental movement known as the Earth Liberation Front, federal authorities acknowledge. ...

Perhaps we should round all these ELFers up and drop them naked into the Serengeti. Since technology, advancement, etc. are so bad, then surely they'd be much happier being there. And, shortly, the lions would be happier too.
 
jsw said:
Perhaps we should round all these ELFers up and drop them naked into the Serengeti. Since technology, advancement, etc. are so bad, then surely they'd be much happier being there. And, shortly, the lions would be happier too.

I would say set them free among the Yanomamo of Brazil. (The Yanomamo are referred to by anthropologists who study then as those b*@#$$s, the average adult male has killed 3 people )
 
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