Surface Devices

[Queen6]

Nope. I will definitely ask next time I test, I know they run a demo version of some of the OS, but I feel like a Windows 10 noob on those devices too. So restarting the SS2 is something that did not occur to me.

I’ll keep testing these as new products come out. Maybe Procreate will eventually make a w10 app. Right now though, sticking with Macs.

Same with Mac's always restart in store before really trying one. I want Affinity for my hopeless stickmen drawings I send to people when bored in meetings Just missed out on the recent sale had all lined up, but was called out for some drama, got back to the hotel, back to full price, typical Anyway I think the apps are well worth the developers asking price and without supporting good independant Dev's we'd all be stuck with monopolies, you know how well that works out, don't we Apple...

Q-6

 

[c0ppo]

@Queen6

Purchase Affinity at full price. I have designer + photo for mac, but purchased for windows as well. Serif developers are actually great folks, they (still...) care about their customers, and are even active on forums. I never once used Photo, but purchased it anyway.

 

[Queen6]

@Queen6

Purchase Affinity at full price. I have designer + photo for mac, but purchased for windows as well. Serif developers are actually great folks, they (still...) care about their customers, and are even active on forums. I never once used Photo, but purchased it anyway.

Totally agree always said and maintain a good dev and or dev team is worth their weight in gold as an end user, and long, may it continue Monopolies only serve a single entity, as we see with Apple, with the user being the least of it's concern's. Credit where credit is due, simple adage yet remains to be ever relevant...

Apple in 2018 only serves to disappoint, what's a Pro PC, easy answer nothing to do with Apple... what a bunch of wankers, but, but, but it's thinner and lighter which equates to being less usable & performant

Q-6

 

[kazmac]

I’d third throwing money at Serif even at full price. If I buy a Windows system with the horsepower, I will definitely triple dip on Photo and Designer (and Publisher whenever that comes out). I have barely used them on my Mac, but I bought the workbooks too and hope to noodle around in between school, work and RL.

@Queen6
Thanks as always. Forgot to restart the Macs this morning (definitely another iMac for me; the laptops are ).

This is one of the nicest, most informative threads at this forum.

Many thanks for all the help.

 

[Queen6]

I’d third throwing money at Serif even at full price. If I buy a Windows system with the horsepower, I will definitely triple dip on Photo and Designer (and Publisher whenever that comes out). I have barely used them on my Mac, but I bought the workbooks too and hope to noodle around in between school, work and RL.

@Queen6
Thanks as always. Forgot to restart the Macs this morning (definitely another iMac for me; the laptops are ).

This is one of the nicest, most informative threads at this forum.

Many thanks for all the help.

Your missing the best, you'll need to step up to iMP to pass this, and RTX is on the way

Storage & RAM all upgradable, want to lock me into your tech, you better perform. Apple currently sets a low standard and fails to achieve...

Q-6

 

[kazmac]

Your missing the best, you'll need to step up to iMP to pass this, and RTX is on the way
View attachment 811615
Storage & RAM all upgradable, want to lock me into your tech, you better perform. Apple currently sets a low standard and fails to achieve...

Q-6

Holy moly ^ those specs. Which laptop of yours is that from.

I know you’re kind of joking and also serious.

If I had a real need for more than 4 cores right now, I’d consider an iMP if I could get one for $4k. I’d love the 6 core mini but the idea of getting all tangled with monitor, eGPU and dingle-dangle-dongles is not appealing to me.

I am also skittish about the T2 chip, another reason why I am looking at the still “current” 2017 models.

If the Surface Pen wasn’t a huge stumbling block for me, I’d look at other systems.

 

[SDColorado]

Microsoft throws a little shade on Apples "whats a computer" ad

 

[Queen6]

Holy moly ^ those specs. Which laptop of yours is that from.

I know you’re kind of joking and also serious.

If I had a real need for more than 4 cores right now, I’d consider an iMP if I could get one for $4k. I’d love the 6 core mini but the idea of getting all tangled with monitor, eGPU and dingle-dangle-dongles is not appealing to me.

I am also skittish about the T2 chip, another reason why I am looking at the still “current” 2017 models.

If the Surface Pen wasn’t a huge stumbling block for me, I’d look at other systems.

ASUS ROG GL703GS, rerolled as a W10 workstation, it's a killer notebook tears though data zero throttling (i7 8750H, 32Gb RAM @ 2666, GTX 1070, NVME SSD +SSHD), maintains full Turbo. Thinking of a ASUS ROG G series with i9 (5K GHz) as ASUS ROG listens to it's customers and focuses on performance not arrogance and ever thinner toys with limited usability.

Apple Pro in 2018 = consumer garbage, Steve Jobs was right it's not cheap, well not the buy in price...

Q-6

 

[SDColorado]

ASUS ROG GL703GS, rerolled as a W10 workstation, it's a killer notebook tears though data zero throttling (i7 8750H, 32Gb RAM @ 2666, GTX 1070, NVME SSD +SSHD), maintains full Turbo. Thinking of a ASUS ROG G series with i9 (5K GHz) as ASUS ROG listens to it's customers and focuses on performance not arrogance and ever thinner toys with limited usability.

Apple Pro in 2018 = consumer garbage, Steve Jobs was right it's not cheap, well not the buy in price...

Q-6

How do you find the 1920x1080 resolution? I know it has a 144Hz/3ms display, which is awesome for gaming. But what about for us non-gaming types who want to use it for photography? I like the Zepherus, but i just don't know if I could so the 1920x1080 resolution.

 

[kazmac]

I am off to Best Buy shortly. Seeing Apple’s messed up explanation for slightly bent iPad Pros is just disgusting.

Wondering if the Wacom Bamboo ink pen
will be a better Surface pen experience for me? I will try to restart a Suface Pro and Surface Book (this BB sold out of a lot their Surface stuff the past couple of days).

I may look at Wacom Cintiqs too (if that is what I ultimately purchase, I’ll just keep all my other tech and go from there).

My indecisiveness is ...

 

[SDColorado]

I am off to Best Buy shortly. Seeing Apple’s messed up explanation for slightly bent iPad Pros is just disgusting.

Wondering if the Wacom Bamboo ink pen
will be a better Surface pen experience for me? I will try to restart a Suface Pro and Surface Book (this BB sold out of a lot their Surface stuff the past couple of days).

I may look at Wacom Cintiqs too (if that is what I ultimately purchase, I’ll just keep all my other tech and go from there).

My indecisiveness is ...

I don't know. It is interesting that you are finding that you are having so much lag with the Surface Pen. That really hasn't been my experience or that of Lisa Gade from her review. She felt that both the iPad Pro and the Surface Pen were better than the Wacom Clintiqs, but my experience is with the SP and hers with the SP and SB2. I have no experience with the SS and I haven't seen her do a review with one either.

That said I wonder if what you are experiencing might be display related lag with the larger SS, rather than pen lag? I don't know enough about that stuff, but spec wise, it seems the Apple Pencil and Microsoft Pen are only 1ms off in terms of latency (20ms vs 21ms). ¯\_( ͡ᵔ ͜ʖ ͡ᵔ )_/¯

In addition to rebooting, if it was me I would also delete the Pencil from the devices as I described in an earlier post, reboot the machine and have then re-find the pencil again.

The absurdity and arrogance of Apples "There is nothing to see here if your iPad is bent straight out of the box, we meant it to be that way" BS is ridiculous. Yeah sometimes that kind of thing happens during manufacturing, and it could happen to any company. But it shouldn't be that hard with decent QC to pull those prior to boxing and shipping them. It isn't like it shouldn't be obvious.

Edit: Oh. Also maybe experiment with the different pen tips if they have them available to try. I am guessing Best Buy will not, but anything is possible. The Microsoft Store does have them, but I haven't take the opportunity to try them yet.

Edit 2:

• Apple Pencil: Unspecified pressure sensitivity, 20ms latency, tilt support, 12 hours battery life (rechargeable), Bluetooth 4
  
  
• Surface Pen: 4,096 levels of pressure sensitivity, 21ms latency, tilt/rotation support (on some devices), 9g of activation force, 1 year battery life (replaceable), Bluetooth 4

Seeing Apple’s messed up explanation for slightly bent iPad Pros is just disgusting.

More specific to this. I wouldn't be surprised if the slightly bent iPads could also lead to displays cracking easily due to uneven surface stress. I had a laptop display that just cracked on its own one time and it was explained to me that sometimes even the slightest of uneven stresses can cause that to happen and that it is an occasional manufacturing defect with the display.

 

[GoldfishRT]

My indecisiveness is ...

If it makes you feel any better I've gone been trying to decide for the better part of 6 months now. The variety is a double edged sword. Even now I'm like 'hmm, Surface laptop is $300 off - can I live with the alcantara?'

 

[SDColorado]

I am like that as well. I gave me 2016 MBP to my wife when hers died and I still haven't settled on a replacement yet.

Been mostly working of the iMac and SP while demoing devices in between

 

[kazmac]

I wound up with an HP spectre 360 15.6” as the new Surface Pros supposively do not work with the Wacom Bamboo ink and Wacom gives you 3 different nibs in the box. I kept going back to the Spectre (I remember asking @Queen6 about those several times in the last year) for the screen, keyboard, responsiveness. Lisa Gade has praised this model many times.

This means I do not have to worry about replacing my iMac either. A Surface Pro might still be in my future as a portable. I really liked the SP6 -save for the pen- when I tried it tonight.

And I wish I would have read this thread while I was at Best Buy...

I don't know. It is interesting that you are finding that you are having so much lag with the Surface Pen. That really hasn't been my experience or that of Lisa Gade from her review. She felt that both the iPad Pro and the Surface Pen were better than the Wacom Clintiqs, but my experience is with the SP and hers with the SP and SB2. I have no experience with the SS and I haven't seen her do a review with one either.

That said I wonder if what you are experiencing might be display related lag with the larger SS, rather than pen lag? I don't know enough about that stuff, but spec wise, it seems the Apple Pencil and Microsoft Pen are only 1ms off in terms of latency (20ms vs 21ms). ¯\_( ͡ᵔ ͜ʖ ͡ᵔ )_/¯

In addition to rebooting, if it was me I would also delete the Pencil from the devices as I described in an earlier post, reboot the machine and have then re-find the pencil again.

The absurdity and arrogance of Apples "There is nothing to see here if your iPad is bent straight out of the box, we meant it to be that way" BS is ridiculous. Yeah sometimes that kind of thing happens during manufacturing, and it could happen to any company. But it shouldn't be that hard with decent QC to pull those prior to boxing and shipping them. It isn't like it shouldn't be obvious.

Edit: Oh. Also maybe experiment with the different pen tips if they have them available to try. I am guessing Best Buy will not, but anything is possible. The Microsoft Store does have them, but I haven't take the opportunity to try them yet.

Edit 2:

• Apple Pencil: Unspecified pressure sensitivity, 20ms latency, tilt support, 12 hours battery life (rechargeable), Bluetooth 4
  
  
• Surface Pen: 4,096 levels of pressure sensitivity, 21ms latency, tilt/rotation support (on some devices), 9g of activation force, 1 year battery life (replaceable), Bluetooth 4

More specific to this. I wouldn't be surprised if the slightly bent iPads could also lead to displays cracking easily due to uneven surface stress. I had a laptop display that just cracked on its own one time and it was explained to me that sometimes even the slightest of uneven stresses can cause that to happen and that it is an occasional manufacturing defect with the display.

iPads, ugh. I love the 2nd gen pencil, but you can keep those 2018 Pros. They felt very flimsy to me and I made sure I was careful while doodling in Notes this morning. I shouldn’t have to tip toe to use a product.

Lisa actually tested the original SS and she really liked it but had to return it. I haven’t watched her in a while and need to, as I appreciate her non-bias POV.

MS: forgot to unpair/pair the Pens.

The Surface Pen display lag could be a distinct possibility especially with the SS2. It also felt like there was an HDD inside (which I know is not the case). It could also be the specific art apps as some of those were not quite as responsive as I was expecting. The latency is pretty close.

App-wise, once I know I am keeping the HP, I’ll buy Affinity Designer for Windows and start noodling around with that. I have a feeling —beyond the Surface Pen nib — that apps and a clogged up system may have played a part. Speaking of the nib, they do wear down quickly and a wobbily nib night have also been the culprit.

I will not rule Surface Products out in the future. I loved the feel of the SP6 when I fiddled around tonight, it was very responsive. The black is gorgeous. This performance was what I was expecting from the SP.

After almost two years of complaining and going back and forth in leaving Apple, I finally took action.

P.S. I gave the Acer laptop to my mom’s boss tonight.

 

[SDColorado]

I wound up with an HP spectre 360 15.6” as the new Surface Pros supposively do not work with the Wacom Bamboo ink and Wacom gives you 3 different nibs in the box. I kept going back to the Spectre (I remember asking @Queen6 about those several times in the last year) for the screen, keyboard, responsiveness. Lisa Gade has praised this model many times.

This means I do not have to worry about replacing my iMac either. A Surface Pro might still be in my future as a portable. I really liked the SP6 -save for the pen- when I tried it tonight.

And I wish I would have read this thread while I was at Best Buy...


iPads, ugh. I love the 2nd gen pencil, but you can keep those 2018 Pros. They felt very flimsy to me and I made sure I was careful while doodling in Notes this morning. I shouldn’t have to tip toe to use a product.

Lisa actually tested the original SS and she really liked it but had to return it. I haven’t watched her in a while and need to, as I appreciate her non-bias POV.

MS: forgot to unpair/pair the Pens.

The Surface Pen display lag could be a distinct possibility especially with the SS2. It also felt like there was an HDD inside (which I know is not the case). It could also be the specific art apps as some of those were not quite as responsive as I was expecting. The latency is pretty close.

App-wise, once I know I am keeping the HP, I’ll buy Affinity Designer for Windows and start noodling around with that. I have a feeling —beyond the Surface Pen nib — that apps and a clogged up system may have played a part. Speaking of the nib, they do wear down quickly and a wobbily nib night have also been the culprit.

I will not rule Surface Products out in the future. I loved the feel of the SP6 when I fiddled around tonight, it was very responsive. The black is gorgeous. This performance was what I was expecting from the SP.

After almost two years of complaining and going back and forth in leaving Apple, I finally took action.

P.S. I gave the Acer laptop to my mom’s boss tonight.

Yeah the nibs can wear out and I have seen them give the Surface Devices to children to do that holding it in their fist and pressing so hard that I am surprised they don’t crack the display thing. So I am not sure what kind of shape they are in.

You will be happy to be rid of the Acer though. My condolences to your mom’s boss on the receipt of it

Edit: MS is said to be working on a “solar” powered pen that gets is power from the displays screen through the nib. It will be interesting to see if that or some new version of the pen arrives in 2019.

That said, I am not sure the difference isn’t the ProMotion 120fps display that makes the difference rather than the difference in pen/pencil latency.

 

[kazmac]

Yeah the nibs can wear out and I have seen them give the Surface Devices to children to do that holding it in their fist and pressing so hard that I am surprised they don’t crack the display thing. So I am not sure what kind of shape they are in.

You will be happy to be rid of the Acer though. My condolences to your mom’s boss on the receipt of it

Edit: MS is said to be working on a “solar” powered pen that gets is power from the displays screen through the nib. It will be interesting to see if that or some new version of the pen arrives in 2019.

That said, I am not sure the difference isn’t the ProMotion 120fps display that makes the difference rather than the difference in pen/pencil latency.

Regarding ProMotion, possibly; but I actually wound up preferring the 2018 iPad for drawing (to me drawing feels better on this screen. Yes, despite the lack of ram causing freeze ups, lag and such, for some reason I like how the pencil feels on the non-laminated screen. Go figure). I find I am creating better art on the 2018 iPad. The only reason why I was considering another 10.5 was for the RAM alone.

 

[xraydoc]

I worked with a lovely MS store rep today while looking at the Surface Studio 2 at the store. They have them in drafting table mode which was why I did not see it when walking by the MS store last week.

I love the design of it. The display is quite nice and thicker than the iMacs, and the floating hinge is awesome. I liked the ergonomic keyboard and could probably get used to the mouse.

But the Pen... So much lag in the pen. The pen feels like a marker in so many ways; especially the nib and brush tools that many of these art apps have (I do not like markers). Beyond the very noticeable lag, that marker feel is a huge turn off to me.

I am sure a little bit of that lag are the apps -and quite possibly- the pen itself.

Sketchable and Graphiter were okay. Neither one feel as easy to use, robust and complete as Procreate.

Word (not the demo) took almost as long as my spinner iMac to open. That saddened me as Word springs to life on my Acer almost immediately after clicking the icon. This was the low end SS2.

I appreciate what Microsoft is trying to do with the Surface line. I think it’s pretty neat, but still not for me.

I am glad so many people here enjoy them and other PCs.

I’ll keep lurking in the forum and will continue to watch this thread.

While some Pen-based apps can have a some lag if they're not coded well, the ones I use on my Surface Book 2 are definitely all responsive -- and while my SB2 is a fast laptop, the Studio 2 should be in a whole 'nother class.

I suspect it's got a lot to do with abused floor-model machines with who knows how many things still running in the background.

Try using the Pen in Edge, Drawboard, OneNote and Scrbl Ink if they're available on the demo machine. And while I've never used them personally, the Affinity apps (Photo, Designer) and Concepts are supposed to be excellent pro-level apps.

 

[Queen6]

How do you find the 1920x1080 resolution? I know it has a 144Hz/3ms display, which is awesome for gaming. But what about for us non-gaming types who want to use it for photography? I like the Zepherus, but i just don't know if I could so the 1920x1080 resolution.

TBH I rarely use it for any gaming purpose, the 1080p display is good enough for those not dealing with imagery. Panel is calibrated and run at 100% scaling, my secondary is a 12" running a 1440p panel which takes care of any high resolution need.

For photography enthusiasts or even Pro's I'd recommend a notebook with a 4K display, again I'd opt for a gaming notebook as they offer tremendous value for money, are generally very scalable, designed with performance in mind and user upgradable. If you have heavy workloads the likes of the ROG GL703GS is a joy to work with as it lights up all the cores and literally tears though data.

Am considering a ROG G series with the i9 processor it's certainly a heavier more bulky machine, equally with the right touch it can sustain 5GHZ. ASUS is ASUS and ROG a different entity, customer's want more performance ROG absolutely delivers.

This is my GL703GS on W10 1809 fully up, not a stripped down version of the OS all services running, as per my everyday workflow...

It's a beast, I'm not big into benchmarks nor able to illustrate real-world usage as the data is business sensitive, equally the numbers speak for themselves, especially Corona surpassing 300K Rays. The 8750H can pull just short of 90W, PL2 can be unlocked allowing sustained performance well past the PL1 45W limit, cooling solution is solid never passing 85C, even when the GTX 1070 is loaded.

I have to say there are aspects of the notebook I don't care for, equally I have never seen, used a more performant notebook and given it's sub 3Kg it's very impressive, as ever one is judged by one's output & delivery not the hardware employed, anyone thinking different is sadly mistaken by a significant margin...

Q-6

 

[kazmac]

While some Pen-based apps can have a some lag if they're not coded well, the ones I use on my Surface Book 2 are definitely all responsive -- and while my SB2 is a fast laptop, the Studio 2 should be in a whole 'nother class.

I suspect it's got a lot to do with abused floor-model machines with who knows how many things still running in the background.

Try using the Pen in Edge, Drawboard, OneNote and Scrbl Ink if they're available on the demo machine. And while I've never used them personally, the Affinity apps (Photo, Designer) and Concepts are supposed to be excellent pro-level apps.

Thanks. The suggestion of restarting the machines made a huge difference in responsiveness. I will definitely go back to that MS store and test run again. I will also keep an eye on sales, as I have a feeling I will probably pick an SP6 up even if I keep the HP as I’d want something to take with me and I loved how responsive, bug-free and light the SP6* was (should I pick up an SP6, they would still be cheaper together than a 2017 iMac alone). Even in light of the Pen.

The pen performed great in Paint 3D (native apps obviously). Affinity Designer is definitely in my purchase plans since it allows for raster and vector art.

Hope to have the HP up and running tonight.

 

[Dave245]

It’s been a few weeks now and I’m really happy with my Surface Pro 6, it is a much better computer replacement than the iPad Pro.

Even tho Apple did send me a new iPad Pro (my last one broke, I had bad customer service and so I sent an email to Phil Schiller, which resulted in me getting a phone call and email from Apple executive relations, after sending it off for repair they sent me out a new iPad Pro.

But even with all that, I’m still happy with my Surface Pro 6 as a computer replacement. I think the iPad is a better consumption device with iTunes but that Surface is a better computer.

 

[kazmac]

It’s been a few weeks now and I’m really happy with my Surface Pro 6, it is a much better computer replacement than the iPad Pro.

Even tho Apple did send me a new iPad Pro (my last one broke, I had bad customer service and so I sent an email to Phil Schiller, which resulted in me getting a phone call and email from Apple executive relations, after sending it off for repair they sent me out a new iPad Pro.

But even with all that, I’m still happy with my Surface Pro 6 as a computer replacement. I think the iPad is a better consumption device with iTunes but that Surface is a better computer.

Glad you’re enjoying the Surface Pro 6. I can see why. I keep thinking about it. I know the HP can scratch a lot of the iPP consumption itches, but there’s no way it’s leaving my house unless it has to.

Glad you got a replacement iPad Pro too (seems like Apple are getting ridiculous with replacements as well).

Now to back pedal in this thread for tips as far as Windows10 itself.

Thanks everyone. It is so helpful to read this thread. Looking forward to learning something new and seeing what else is out there. I expect MS to keep improving on the Surface line.

 

[SDColorado]

TBH I rarely use it for any gaming purpose, the 1080p display is good enough for those not dealing with imagery. Panel is calibrated and run at 100% scaling, my secondary is a 12" running a 1440p panel which takes care of any high resolution need.

For photography enthusiasts or even Pro's I'd recommend a notebook with a 4K display, again I'd opt for a gaming notebook as they offer tremendous value for money, are generally very scalable, designed with performance in mind and user upgradable. If you have heavy workloads the likes of the ROG GL703GS is a joy to work with as it lights up all the cores and literally tears though data.

Q-6

Thanks for the confirmation on that. I had a feeling that would be the case. Despite having the folks at the Microsoft Store telling me that I would eventually "get used to it" on the Asus Zepherus, I have a feeling that I would not. That sounds like Apple fans on the Butterfly keyboard issue right? Don't worry, you will adapt to it from the way you have been typing for the past decades and "get used to it." Nothing wrong here.

I am not a professional photographer, definitely more in the enthusiast category with both photo and video, but looking for a business laptop that can do all of the above, so I do still feel 4K (or close to it such as retina or SB2's 3240 × 2160) is a feature I would want to keep. But I love everything else about the Zepherus and I do like Asus computers in general.

The Razerblade 15" is appealing, but QC and CS concerns make me a bit nervous about Razer.

 

[DarthVader!]

The Razerblade 15" is appealing, but QC and CS concerns make me a bit nervous about Razer.

Is that still a thing for Razer in 2018?

 

[Queen6]

K

I am off to Best Buy shortly. Seeing Apple’s messed up explanation for slightly bent iPad Pros is just disgusting.

Wondering if the Wacom Bamboo ink pen
will be a better Surface pen experience for me? I will try to restart a Suface Pro and Surface Book (this BB sold out of a lot their Surface stuff the past couple of days).

I may look at Wacom Cintiqs too (if that is what I ultimately purchase, I’ll just keep all my other tech and go from there).

My indecisiveness is ...

Kaz,
Just do it, you'll adjust we all have. Apple's path is clear, yeah it sucks but the only way to revert is to stop feeding the beast. At this point in time Apple would need to pay me to use it's mediocre hardware & software solutions seriously so, and I've been with the Mac for over two decades. It's becoming rank amateur at best...

Q-6

 

[SDColorado]

Is that still a thing for Razer in 2018?

Yeah it is. Fairly nice machines actually, with a few annoying niggles and questionable customer service

Edit: Microsoft Store says that if I purchased through them that they would deal with Razer to make sure I got a good one regardless of how many exchanges it took and said that when they are good they are really good.

But by the same token the local Best Buy and Microcenter have told me that they are among the most returned laptops they sell. So that could be a process hahaha