I'm curious to know how they're forcing all video to 480p, since that's usually a negotiation between the browser/app and the backend service. T-Mobile definitely doesn't have the horsepower to dynamically transcode everything to 480p.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
T-Mobile Disputes YouTube's Throttling Accusations, Calls Binge On 'Mobile Optimized' or 'Downgraded'
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
moo083
macrumors member
@JohnApples: The fuss is that this is in super sketchy territory Net Neutrality-wise. The concept behind net neutrality is that every bit is of equal importance to every other bit. In this case they are saying, I see you are watching a video, why don't I alter the data coming down the pipe to you.
So now everyone is comfortable with data alterations at the ISP level. Sounds like a first step down a very dangerous road.
So now everyone is comfortable with data alterations at the ISP level. Sounds like a first step down a very dangerous road.
AppleFan91
macrumors 68000
Man I'll be glad when the T-Mobile love affair is over. People acting like they (and Legere) are some sort of Robin Hood in the industry. Please, the guy is a tool and the moment they start getting enough customers to compete with AT&T and Verizon, he'll follow in their footsteps. He'll, they've lready jacked up unlimited data. Just a matter of time before it's gone.
I agree that T-Mobile should have never turned this service on by default. I have unlimited data and turned it off as soon is it became available but I'm sure there are tons of customers who didn't know about it and left it on.
They screwed up on that front and used it as a slick way to reduce the load on their network.
They screwed up on that front and used it as a slick way to reduce the load on their network.
So you preffered the status quo of AT&T and Verizon raping the consumers without decent competition? Even if you don't use T-Mobile then you should be thankful for how they've changed the industry.
AppleFan91
macrumors 68000
I didn't say that at all. I did say that we should call a spade a spade and realize that T-Mobile isn't the last bastion of hope against the tyranny that is AT&T and Verizon, as T-Mobile and Legere try and portray. They made these moves as a last ditched attempt at survival. It worked, but let's not pretend that they aren't just the exact same thing once they gain more customers. The exact definition of "Wolf in sheeps clothing"
69Mustang
macrumors 604
Myopia, shortsightedness, lack of imagination... 😀
I swear to Jeebus I'm just kidding. Your comment was low hanging fruit and this staff meeting freaking eternally long. Someone here loves the sound of his own voice. I can't punch him in the face so like any proper ******, I take it out on the innocent.
But seriously, potentially, any iPhone user on TMo could be affected by this. There's your connection.
/speaker uses "level set" and "paradigm shift" in same sentence
/shoots self
4jasontv
Suspended
I hadn't noticed any issues with YouTube, but I ended up disabling binge on when a movie on Amazon Video looked like a QuickTime file from '96. Funny thing is, as an unlimited user I get one free Vudu movie a month if I use Binge On, but didn't know about it until I went to turn it off. Why would I want a free movie that looks terrible, if I agree to watch movies I paid for at low resolution?
T-Mobile: You're not saying it right....It's DOwn-Grading and not Throttling...
I wish Youtube would understand this more rather than jump on board as to what they reckon it is.
If it was throttling, no one would use it. I prefer the term "mobile optimized" it sound better.
It could also be TMobile just trying slip through the cracks. Other companies have been accused of false advertising,,, Optus, for one here in Australia, so it can happen.
If it was throttling, no one would use it. I prefer the term "mobile optimized" it sound better.
It could also be TMobile just trying slip through the cracks. Other companies have been accused of false advertising,,, Optus, for one here in Australia, so it can happen.
MrXiro
macrumors 68040
Because if you opt out then nothing is optimized and you get full 1080p at native compression rates which stresses the network more. I think it's an all or none thing for T-Mo because this isn't done from an IP address but rather various video formats are filtered for "optimization".
Only a guess though.
spaceballl
macrumors 68030
The first poster nailed it. BingeOn is a great feature that I bet over half of the people out there (but not me) would want. That being said, when you start messing the quality of someone's stream without their consent, I do think that's a big issue. If this were an opt-in feature, it would truly look like this was a benefit to the consumer. By making it opt out, it just looks like T-Mobile is trying to save on bandwidth.
You're absolutely right, the program's main goal is to reduced unnecessary usage on their network. Which is why they still want unlimited users on the program.therefore, the most effective way to do this was to roll it out as On by default. Most customers are probably clueless on the program and wouldn't be bothered to turn it on. By making it on by default you maximize the benefit of the program. I think they did a good enough job at notifying their customers about the program so that those that do care (for whatever reason) can turn it off. Maybe they should of sent an opt out text or something but nonetheless it makes perfect business sense to do it they way they did.
Nothing is ever free, this is absolutely about saving bandwith. Just like their lower prices aren't for the customer, they're to attract more customers from "the other guys" and increase profits. When's the last time you saw a wireless provider ask for your approval to add data caps and throttle speeds. at least Tmobile gives you the option to turn it off, they could of just as easily made it mandatory.
Nearly all video provides will change quality based on your internet speed, Tmobile is probably sending out some type of false speed information to trick the provider to send out a lower quality-but this doesn't always work. "Partners" have probably modified their settings to downgrade Tmobile Ip addresses automatically and they are rewarded with more viewers.
Just a guess though.
Google's got some nerve complaining about a company not getting user consent when their entire business is built on stalking people without any consent whatsoever. Forgive me if I don't shed a tear for the Empire if Evil.
Gizmotoy
macrumors 65816
I think the biggest point they messed up on was modifying ALL video content, not just those from partners. If you're going to apply the same rules to all video, regardless of the source, why even bother with the partner nonsense?
When they pair that mistake with the fact the feature is opt-out instead of opt-in, you get frustrated customers. I was watching pretty closely, and I saw no clear indication that the announcement of BingeOn meant all video flowing over their network would be degraded unless I specifically told them not to. For the partner sites, yes, but not for everyone.
garylapointe
macrumors 68000
I feel like we need another category at MacRumors.com for things in the industry that might or might not be related to you but is loosely tied to an Apple product. I'd probably still read that category, but it's not Apple specific.
I've got a Mac, AppleTV, iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch, but I don't have T-Mobile for my iPhone plan.
BUT I do have a T-Mobile chip for my iPad with the 200MB of free data on it which I think I heard about hear, so non-Apple news does help me.
And stories from here will likely help me when the say comes that I switch away from AT&T...
Gary
lordofthereef
macrumors G5
I am talking about content providers here, not consumers.
The content provider has to opt in in order t have their video compressed AND not count against the consumer's data bucket.
But now we are finding out that TMO compresses ALL video for Binge on customers. So why does this require content providers to opt in if all Binge On content is optimized anyway?
lordofthereef
macrumors G5
I mentioned this already, but TMO can send out some free courtesy texts to all lines. They already do that when you use up a certain percentage of data (I think 50% then 75% then 100% but don't quote me on that). I have also received texts, I want to say, advertising other features.
Regardless, if everyone who opts into Binge On receives "optimized" video, who does a content provider need to sign up for something to make it such that this video doesn't cost the consumer data?
The only idea I have at this point is that TMO is able to differentiate video data but doesn't know what that video actually is (for compression it doesn't perhaps matter). With the content provider opting into Binge On, the consumer gets their video optimized and free (doesn't cost data) and TMO is able to collect data on what consumer watches what videos at what time to then potentially sell or do with what they please.
Of course, I may be completely off here. But I haven't been offered any reason, wild or otherwise, why the content provider must opt into Binge On if all video under Binge On is optimized anyway.
lordofthereef
macrumors G5
I truly don't think most people view TMobile as the Robin Hood analogy that you used. I went with TMO four months ago because I got more for less. When another company is able to do that again, I will go there.
We have hated Verizon as a wireless carrier but have been more than happy with their FiOS (home fiber internet) service too, and the pricing is competitive with Xfinity.
I say all this because consumers are absolutely able to make educated decisions. People wouldn't be moving to TMO NOW if they weren't offering better more viable options than the competition NOW.
Adding features and price points is a damned if you do, damned if you don't move it would seam. TMO reduces their tower loads, increases the amount of streaming their customers can do (at 480p while allowing them to opt out), but they increase the prices of their SINGLE line unlimited plans (yes family plans can still add unlimited at $30 per line) and people are calling BS and pointing out that TMO is in it for the money. Yeah. Businesses really are. Apple does the same, and the crazy thing? Apple's margins are much higher than TMOs, who are running at around 3% right now.
Competition is always good. Without the draw of profit, competition stagnates. Of course TMO, Legere, and everyone else behind the scenes are in this to bolster TMO as a company and line their pocket books. That's why anyone goes to work. I have no idea what you do for a living, but would you do it without pay? I don't care if you are a doctor saving lives, without money that you turn into food, and a roof over your head, and iPhones, you are probably not going to be a doctor very longer.
iOSFangirl6001
macrumors 6502
Agreed 110% people drinking that T-Mobile Kool-Aid and buying into to gimmicks like TMO and Legere are god, can do no wrong and TMO will always be the best thing since sliced bread forever.
Just waiting for all them TMO freebies to lead em to ruin or they get to that point they are forced to realize "uncarier" is a lie and they have to join "the other guys" in their practices
( I also expect we'll both get flack from the TMO worshippers or people using the industry completion argument )
LOL 😀
I think it really depends on the FCC's definition of "throttling". Throttling is defined within their news release rather vaguely - "broadband providers may not impair or degrade lawful Internet traffic on the basis of content, applications, services, or non-harmful devices."
Clearly internet speed or throughput reduction would fall under this. The question is does video quality fall under the "impair or degrade" clause of the law? I would think it does. However, one caveat to this is that the action must not “unreasonably interfere with or unreasonably disadvantage the consumer".
By offering it as a voluntary service, I think it would be considered permissible by the FCC. T-Mobile is very transparent about how Binge On-Demand works and what it does (another requirement of any service feature or network management utility). About the only thing anyone may have a gripe with is that it is Opt-Out and not Opt-In.
Personally, I welcome the ability to stream videos at 480p without hitting the data usage bucket. As a T-Mobile user, the video content doesn't really look too bad, and it results in a much more "usable" experience versus traditional buffer/lag pauses during videos. Also, can anyone explain to me why YouTube would complain about this? It seems they too would benefit from less server/network usage as well.
Additionally, I would like to say to all of the people knocking T-Mobile as an inferior network provider to "not knock it until you try it". I was an AT&T customer for the last 8 years (5 iPhone family plan on unlimited grandfathered plans). After the recent announcement to raise rates I decided to checkout other offerings. My bill was about $300 a month after corporate FAN discounts. I went to T-Mobile during the "Un-Carrier" promotion last month and couldn't be happier. I pay half what I did for AT&T monthly, got $100 bill credit per line as well as 128gb iPhone 6S for the same price as 16GB model.
The service quality in the tri-state area is MUCH better than AT&T. I've either had the same signal strength or better on T-Mobile vs AT&T in NYC and long island. Additionally, when it shows I have service, my internet actually WORKS (and quite well too). Within the last 2-3 years on AT&T the internet would either be extremely slow or not working in congested areas (even if it showed full LTE or strong LTE service).
T-Mobile is also (surprisingly) lightning fast. At Penn station in NYC during rush hour (5-6pm) I've been able to pull 40 mbps+ while standing at the waiting boards (AT&T would be ~1-2 mbps, if that). Additionally, they are rolling out a new "Band 12" network capable of 4x better building penetration and 2x further reach for LTE (supported on iPhone 6s or newer).
I've even done some limited speed testing against a family member's Verizon iPhone and T-Mobile consistently beats it out. The only gripe I have with T-Mobile is the customer service. While trying to switch my lines over and get my plans setup and questions answered I can't tell you how many ill-informed people I dealt with. I had to spend DAYS getting everything right, I really wish they would improve on it (maybe temporary Christmas help is to blame). But I can't really say the customer service experience I've had with AT&T has been much better. Hopefully I won't have to deal with them anymore once everything is finalized and reaches a steady-state. On the contrary, the people in the brick in mortar stores seemed very knowledgeable and nice.
Clearly internet speed or throughput reduction would fall under this. The question is does video quality fall under the "impair or degrade" clause of the law? I would think it does. However, one caveat to this is that the action must not “unreasonably interfere with or unreasonably disadvantage the consumer".
By offering it as a voluntary service, I think it would be considered permissible by the FCC. T-Mobile is very transparent about how Binge On-Demand works and what it does (another requirement of any service feature or network management utility). About the only thing anyone may have a gripe with is that it is Opt-Out and not Opt-In.
Personally, I welcome the ability to stream videos at 480p without hitting the data usage bucket. As a T-Mobile user, the video content doesn't really look too bad, and it results in a much more "usable" experience versus traditional buffer/lag pauses during videos. Also, can anyone explain to me why YouTube would complain about this? It seems they too would benefit from less server/network usage as well.
Additionally, I would like to say to all of the people knocking T-Mobile as an inferior network provider to "not knock it until you try it". I was an AT&T customer for the last 8 years (5 iPhone family plan on unlimited grandfathered plans). After the recent announcement to raise rates I decided to checkout other offerings. My bill was about $300 a month after corporate FAN discounts. I went to T-Mobile during the "Un-Carrier" promotion last month and couldn't be happier. I pay half what I did for AT&T monthly, got $100 bill credit per line as well as 128gb iPhone 6S for the same price as 16GB model.
The service quality in the tri-state area is MUCH better than AT&T. I've either had the same signal strength or better on T-Mobile vs AT&T in NYC and long island. Additionally, when it shows I have service, my internet actually WORKS (and quite well too). Within the last 2-3 years on AT&T the internet would either be extremely slow or not working in congested areas (even if it showed full LTE or strong LTE service).
T-Mobile is also (surprisingly) lightning fast. At Penn station in NYC during rush hour (5-6pm) I've been able to pull 40 mbps+ while standing at the waiting boards (AT&T would be ~1-2 mbps, if that). Additionally, they are rolling out a new "Band 12" network capable of 4x better building penetration and 2x further reach for LTE (supported on iPhone 6s or newer).
I've even done some limited speed testing against a family member's Verizon iPhone and T-Mobile consistently beats it out. The only gripe I have with T-Mobile is the customer service. While trying to switch my lines over and get my plans setup and questions answered I can't tell you how many ill-informed people I dealt with. I had to spend DAYS getting everything right, I really wish they would improve on it (maybe temporary Christmas help is to blame). But I can't really say the customer service experience I've had with AT&T has been much better. Hopefully I won't have to deal with them anymore once everything is finalized and reaches a steady-state. On the contrary, the people in the brick in mortar stores seemed very knowledgeable and nice.
Last edited:
Zirel
Suspended
This.
Can anyone explain me why would anyone care about YouTube?
The one good thing they have, are some motoring channels, like Jay Leno's, Xcar, etc...
Bingo. T-Mobile seems to be a master at marketing... and the consumers are eating up this non-sense.
All they've done is successfully jack up the cost of their own unlimited data plan and screw over the rest of the industry. Instead of an ETF, we got device installment plans. Same ****, fancy name.