Is there anything different between the sony thing that was axed and the "revolutionary product" that billy-willy introduced the day of the expo?
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Tablet PC's
- Thread starter arn
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Yes:
The M$ device is a web appliance free of any base other than a charging cradle. Whether it will run XP or some new "windoze Lite" has yet to be determined. It will have a few surface buttons and an optical drive. I'm not sure how but it seems to be tied in with TiVo. My guess is M$ is attempting a "Digital Hub" that uses TiVo for storage, X-Box for processing and a Tablet as a default interface.
The M$ device is a web appliance free of any base other than a charging cradle. Whether it will run XP or some new "windoze Lite" has yet to be determined. It will have a few surface buttons and an optical drive. I'm not sure how but it seems to be tied in with TiVo. My guess is M$ is attempting a "Digital Hub" that uses TiVo for storage, X-Box for processing and a Tablet as a default interface.
i would like to see both a tablet mac you can carry around and a mac desktop which you can draw on with a stylus like the sony computer i saw at metreon
apple does have to innovate its way out of the tech downturn, but that goes with every high tech company ever in this industry since the beginning
apple does have to innovate its way out of the tech downturn, but that goes with every high tech company ever in this industry since the beginning
Tablets, take two and call me . . .
the Wacom draw on LCD screen (yes you can take it off the base and play with it in your lap, but no it is not wireless) costs $1899.00 . Does not include computer. Do the math.
the Wacom draw on LCD screen (yes you can take it off the base and play with it in your lap, but no it is not wireless) costs $1899.00 . Does not include computer. Do the math.
margins make the world go round
retail LCD display $500.
semi mobile pen input LCD $1899
get the point?
I doubt it.
retail LCD display $500.
semi mobile pen input LCD $1899
get the point?
I doubt it.
Re: margins make the world go round
Oh I probably get more points than you imagine -
personal attacks usually indicate the small mindedness of the induhvidual making them for one.
Hopefully, you are more tolerant of differing opinions in your real world - then again I don't really care.
The rest of us may know of more than two options to choose for device platforms - especially in a newsgroup discussion forum not much above brain storming sessions.
Oh, and lastly, this is a discussion on Tablet PC's - the whole ball of wax not the pen input kludge you are limitedly and ignorantly refering to - the rest of us are discussing something far beyond the device you refer to - so get over it and the attitude.
Oh I probably get more points than you imagine -
personal attacks usually indicate the small mindedness of the induhvidual making them for one.
Hopefully, you are more tolerant of differing opinions in your real world - then again I don't really care.
The rest of us may know of more than two options to choose for device platforms - especially in a newsgroup discussion forum not much above brain storming sessions.
Oh, and lastly, this is a discussion on Tablet PC's - the whole ball of wax not the pen input kludge you are limitedly and ignorantly refering to - the rest of us are discussing something far beyond the device you refer to - so get over it and the attitude.
I don't get it...
OK...I'll admit my bias up front. I want/need a Newton replacement. I think PDAs are still the future, and I think Apple has all the technology it needs to build a great and revolutionary PDA.
Additionally, I believe that this focus on Tablets takes away from the idea of a great PDA. Can they both exist? Sure, but that is not how Apple has decided to innovate. One product at a time...
However, I just don't "get" the tablet concept. I don't see any real niche or need that it fills that isn't already well-served by other products. Can someone explain to me what a tablet will do for you now that you can't do already?
The only thing I can see is if you are an artist and want a digital drawing pad to use remotely. But, if you are a normal user, and just want to do normal computing stuff, surfing the web, writing letters, graphic design work...then in what way is a tablet better than a laptop?
Pen input is only the "best" choice when a keyboard is impractical. For example, when I'm standing in a line at the grocery store, I can't very well pull out my laptop and type. So, I need pen input. And a tablet as I understand it is not really "mobile" outside of the home.
I have a g3 powerbook with an airport card. I use it while watching TV. I use it while sitting out back on the deck. I use it in bed at night. I read the Sunday paper on it. I use it to read this and other forums. I can't imagine choosing to use pen input to type this message if a keyboard is readily available. So, why would I use a tablet instead of my laptop?
Can someone explain it to me?
OK...I'll admit my bias up front. I want/need a Newton replacement. I think PDAs are still the future, and I think Apple has all the technology it needs to build a great and revolutionary PDA.
Additionally, I believe that this focus on Tablets takes away from the idea of a great PDA. Can they both exist? Sure, but that is not how Apple has decided to innovate. One product at a time...
However, I just don't "get" the tablet concept. I don't see any real niche or need that it fills that isn't already well-served by other products. Can someone explain to me what a tablet will do for you now that you can't do already?
The only thing I can see is if you are an artist and want a digital drawing pad to use remotely. But, if you are a normal user, and just want to do normal computing stuff, surfing the web, writing letters, graphic design work...then in what way is a tablet better than a laptop?
Pen input is only the "best" choice when a keyboard is impractical. For example, when I'm standing in a line at the grocery store, I can't very well pull out my laptop and type. So, I need pen input. And a tablet as I understand it is not really "mobile" outside of the home.
I have a g3 powerbook with an airport card. I use it while watching TV. I use it while sitting out back on the deck. I use it in bed at night. I read the Sunday paper on it. I use it to read this and other forums. I can't imagine choosing to use pen input to type this message if a keyboard is readily available. So, why would I use a tablet instead of my laptop?
Can someone explain it to me?
Ergonomics.
The Ergonomics studies at Apple are (believe it or not) EXHAUSTIVE. The bonus to a Tablet as opposed to a laptop are in substituting the ergonomically-worst keyboard possible (the laptop keyboard) for simple fingertip and stylus input. Add to this the Apple Handwriting-recognition features and you'll never go back.
As to a PDA: It's a passing fad. The average consumer will no more use a PDA than use a Datawatch.
A PDA is a nice concept until you have to weigh the $200.00++ cost against a food budget. Where as a Tablet would fit the Laptop slot, and as such would justify higher expense.
Does a PDA have a HD? No.
Does it have a real processor? No.
Does it have an optical drive? No.
Is it capable of running OS X? No.
Does it take standard RAM? No.
As the answer to all of the above is No Apple will not produce a PDA.Get over it.PDA's are Geek candy. If Apple wanted to spend a few million dollars developing Geek Candy, we'd have Apple Athlons.
The Ergonomics studies at Apple are (believe it or not) EXHAUSTIVE. The bonus to a Tablet as opposed to a laptop are in substituting the ergonomically-worst keyboard possible (the laptop keyboard) for simple fingertip and stylus input. Add to this the Apple Handwriting-recognition features and you'll never go back.
As to a PDA: It's a passing fad. The average consumer will no more use a PDA than use a Datawatch.
A PDA is a nice concept until you have to weigh the $200.00++ cost against a food budget. Where as a Tablet would fit the Laptop slot, and as such would justify higher expense.
Does a PDA have a HD? No.
Does it have a real processor? No.
Does it have an optical drive? No.
Is it capable of running OS X? No.
Does it take standard RAM? No.
As the answer to all of the above is No Apple will not produce a PDA.Get over it.PDA's are Geek candy. If Apple wanted to spend a few million dollars developing Geek Candy, we'd have Apple Athlons.
Fightin' words...
Them's fightin' words!
Mishcief states:
On my best day, my handwriting on my Newton was around 30 wpm. On my laptop, my rate is around 50-60 wpm. My mother types at around 100 wpm. So, even with your assertion that the keyboard is "ergonimically-worst" I am still faster typing than I am writing. I don't think that this will ever shift; it is faster to push 1 key then it is to do the stroke of that same letter. So, in terms of efficiency, a full-sized keyboard is still better.
What? Why does a PDA take away from the food budget while a Tablet wouldn't? That makes no sense. I just don't get the complaint of paying money for a functional PDA. Many people will spend $500-$1000 on a digital camera, which they'll use once-per-month. A PDA will be used multiple times per day, and for a much wider range of uses.
Does a PDA have a HD? The iPod has shown that a small, portable device can effectively use a HD.
Does it have a real processor? Sure...why not?
Does it have an optical drive? Not needed.
Is it capable of running OS X? Not needed.
Does it take standard RAM? Why is this important?
You are comparing the feature sets of a tablet with a PDA. I am trying to explain that only a PDA fills any needed niche. I'll ask again...where will you use your Tablet that you can't already use a laptop? You see...if I can get a perfectly functional laptop for less...why would I spend more on a tablet?
For me, the PDA is the computing device that I take with me everywhere. Sure, I have a laptop, but how often do I really take it out with me? To the movies? To the grocery store? To the post office? Never. The laptop is not meant for these uses...and neither will a Tablet be useful here either.
Them's fightin' words!
Mishcief states:
On my best day, my handwriting on my Newton was around 30 wpm. On my laptop, my rate is around 50-60 wpm. My mother types at around 100 wpm. So, even with your assertion that the keyboard is "ergonimically-worst" I am still faster typing than I am writing. I don't think that this will ever shift; it is faster to push 1 key then it is to do the stroke of that same letter. So, in terms of efficiency, a full-sized keyboard is still better.
What? Why does a PDA take away from the food budget while a Tablet wouldn't? That makes no sense. I just don't get the complaint of paying money for a functional PDA. Many people will spend $500-$1000 on a digital camera, which they'll use once-per-month. A PDA will be used multiple times per day, and for a much wider range of uses.
Does a PDA have a HD? The iPod has shown that a small, portable device can effectively use a HD.
Does it have a real processor? Sure...why not?
Does it have an optical drive? Not needed.
Is it capable of running OS X? Not needed.
Does it take standard RAM? Why is this important?
You are comparing the feature sets of a tablet with a PDA. I am trying to explain that only a PDA fills any needed niche. I'll ask again...where will you use your Tablet that you can't already use a laptop? You see...if I can get a perfectly functional laptop for less...why would I spend more on a tablet?
For me, the PDA is the computing device that I take with me everywhere. Sure, I have a laptop, but how often do I really take it out with me? To the movies? To the grocery store? To the post office? Never. The laptop is not meant for these uses...and neither will a Tablet be useful here either.
Okay boyo.....
Tell me:
Do you have tendonitis yet?
How many Geek Toys do you own?
Has your PDA paid for itself?
Are you an "average user"?
Can you rattle off more than 3 digits of Pi by rote?
Do you own a Data watch?
what's your yearly income?
Yearly expendatures?
If there was a device that bridged the gap between PDA's and Laptops, would you buy one?
Tell me:
Do you have tendonitis yet?
How many Geek Toys do you own?
Has your PDA paid for itself?
Are you an "average user"?
Can you rattle off more than 3 digits of Pi by rote?
Do you own a Data watch?
what's your yearly income?
Yearly expendatures?
If there was a device that bridged the gap between PDA's and Laptops, would you buy one?
....
Do you have tendonitis yet?
No...but I don't see this as the issue at hand either. If you are arguing that you'd prefer a better computing input device, than that is a discussion we can have. But guess what...the keyboard is likely to be the key input component for the next 30 years. Wanna bet?
How many Geek Toys do you own?
I always hold off new technology purchases until I believe that the unit will actually fill a needed niche in my daily routine, and do so better, faster, and/or cheaper than the alternative. If I am going to spend more on a product, then it has to do more. For example, I lusted after the Newton 100, but didn't buy until the Newton 2000.
Has your PDA paid for itself?
My Newton paid for itself. My Handspring Visor hasn't.
Are you an "average user"?
No...but I have daily, average uses that I need a PDA to provide.
Can you rattle off more than 3 digits of Pi by rote?
No...
Do you own a Data watch?
No...
what's your yearly income?
Never enough...
Yearly expendatures?
Slightly less than the above...
If there was a device that bridged the gap between PDA's and Laptops, would you buy one?
You mean the current PDAs? Yes...
Do you have tendonitis yet?
No...but I don't see this as the issue at hand either. If you are arguing that you'd prefer a better computing input device, than that is a discussion we can have. But guess what...the keyboard is likely to be the key input component for the next 30 years. Wanna bet?
How many Geek Toys do you own?
I always hold off new technology purchases until I believe that the unit will actually fill a needed niche in my daily routine, and do so better, faster, and/or cheaper than the alternative. If I am going to spend more on a product, then it has to do more. For example, I lusted after the Newton 100, but didn't buy until the Newton 2000.
Has your PDA paid for itself?
My Newton paid for itself. My Handspring Visor hasn't.
Are you an "average user"?
No...but I have daily, average uses that I need a PDA to provide.
Can you rattle off more than 3 digits of Pi by rote?
No...
Do you own a Data watch?
No...
what's your yearly income?
Never enough...
Yearly expendatures?
Slightly less than the above...
If there was a device that bridged the gap between PDA's and Laptops, would you buy one?
You mean the current PDAs? Yes...
Nice website.
I see you're heavily invested in Geek Chique. Well, outside M$ land and in places where $$$$ and rent do not line up there is less room to buy such meaningless toys.
Keyboards for 30 years? Bah.
Geek toys: Don't dodge a key credability question.
If you would buy such a device, don't push PDA's on a Tablet PC Thread.
I see you're heavily invested in Geek Chique. Well, outside M$ land and in places where $$$$ and rent do not line up there is less room to buy such meaningless toys.
Keyboards for 30 years? Bah.
Geek toys: Don't dodge a key credability question.
If you would buy such a device, don't push PDA's on a Tablet PC Thread.
Thanks...
But, I'm still waiting for an answer to the question I posed. What niche does a Tablet provide?
So far, Mischief has asserted that a tablet fills the "I hate to type" niche. I just don't think that is a compelling enough reason for enough people to pay MORE for something a laptop does for less.
So, again, what do those of you advocating for Tablets consider the market niche to be?
But, I'm still waiting for an answer to the question I posed. What niche does a Tablet provide?
So far, Mischief has asserted that a tablet fills the "I hate to type" niche. I just don't think that is a compelling enough reason for enough people to pay MORE for something a laptop does for less.
So, again, what do those of you advocating for Tablets consider the market niche to be?
Re: I don't get it...
Excellent posts ...
I agree that computing will move beyond the keyboard/workstation but I think Tablets and PDAs are synergistic rather than antagonistic in technological innovation and development.
Actually, I know of a very big niche that needs a portable, keyboard-less, data entry and display device where wireless networks already exist -- healthcare. Multiple studies and reccomendations over the past 3 years push for a complete electronic medical record to reduce errors and increase efficiency in a very expensive endevour. Current tablets to access and input patient data suck but we still use them because the other options are worse.
Just as Apple has made a push in one vertical market - education - so it could explore healthcare, which is not in a recession now and actually continues to grow.
I agree inputing all this would be cumbersome without a keyboard but think of all the other things you listed. How many requires any text input and how much of that text is actually forms, most of them the same data that should be pre-filled. All the reading, browsing and surfing could just as easily be done with a smaller lighter unit of a screen only and pen for clicking.
As to mischief's post
I agree that the ergonomics of a tablet are such that it could replace a laptop rather than be considered a NEW platform. A USB port or geekier Bluetooth link could add the keyboard when needed for more appropriate applications.
Excellent posts ...
I agree that computing will move beyond the keyboard/workstation but I think Tablets and PDAs are synergistic rather than antagonistic in technological innovation and development.
Actually, I know of a very big niche that needs a portable, keyboard-less, data entry and display device where wireless networks already exist -- healthcare. Multiple studies and reccomendations over the past 3 years push for a complete electronic medical record to reduce errors and increase efficiency in a very expensive endevour. Current tablets to access and input patient data suck but we still use them because the other options are worse.
Just as Apple has made a push in one vertical market - education - so it could explore healthcare, which is not in a recession now and actually continues to grow.
I agree inputing all this would be cumbersome without a keyboard but think of all the other things you listed. How many requires any text input and how much of that text is actually forms, most of them the same data that should be pre-filled. All the reading, browsing and surfing could just as easily be done with a smaller lighter unit of a screen only and pen for clicking.
As to mischief's post
I agree that the ergonomics of a tablet are such that it could replace a laptop rather than be considered a NEW platform. A USB port or geekier Bluetooth link could add the keyboard when needed for more appropriate applications.
Originally posted by mischief
Does a PDA have a HD? No. but with a wireless network link does it need one?
Does it have a real processor? No. A cpu is a cpu is a cpu - it has one.
Does it have an optical drive? No. Nor do some laptops, the point? see first question.
Is it capable of running OS X? No. Neither does an iPod, does that make it less useful to do it's assigned task?
Does it take standard RAM? No. Standard?? DIMM, SODIMM, DDR? Again so what? Are CF, SM and Memory considered STANDARD then yes.
I have used a passing fad of a PDA to do my job accesing patient information, schedules, drug perscribing and look up and send and receive critical messages for two years. I just would like someone to do it better. Almost 20 years ago I bought a different kind of computer to do things better because I wasn't satisfied with my IBM PC. I really wish the same company would do it again
Market Niche:
Assuming that Apple will take the waste-not-want not approach and use the Handwriting-recognition technology from Newton for an actual product, such a product would occupy the slot currently occupied by iBook. A consumer portable with no keyboard and all or most of the features of a "whole" portable.
The PDA niche is too narrow not to get squeezed out by a line of streamlined portables aimed at the average, non-typist consumer. It's a stopgap, like a steam engine. Eventually a better solution will pop up and PDA's will be $10.00 at K-Mart.
The whole point to a Tablet PC is a better input device. The existing keyboard is designed for expediancy of the immediate sort. If I want to spit out 300 WPM fine, but I assure you that continuous typing on the average keyboard WILL cost you the use of your hands. If you relate income to WPM then you could either be rich, or hold a coffee cup. It's up to you. Though I must say, if that's the case: find a new line of work.
How much would the inability to grip a fork cost you compared to slow data entry?
Assuming that Apple will take the waste-not-want not approach and use the Handwriting-recognition technology from Newton for an actual product, such a product would occupy the slot currently occupied by iBook. A consumer portable with no keyboard and all or most of the features of a "whole" portable.
The PDA niche is too narrow not to get squeezed out by a line of streamlined portables aimed at the average, non-typist consumer. It's a stopgap, like a steam engine. Eventually a better solution will pop up and PDA's will be $10.00 at K-Mart.
The whole point to a Tablet PC is a better input device. The existing keyboard is designed for expediancy of the immediate sort. If I want to spit out 300 WPM fine, but I assure you that continuous typing on the average keyboard WILL cost you the use of your hands. If you relate income to WPM then you could either be rich, or hold a coffee cup. It's up to you. Though I must say, if that's the case: find a new line of work.
How much would the inability to grip a fork cost you compared to slow data entry?
I missed the back and forth post.......
Timothy..... the niche of a Tablet vs PDA is basically one of screen size.
That immersive reading you like to do on sunday, that spreadsheet of data or a picture or graph, all of those are easier on the eyes and wrists by putting it on a larger display.
Frankly, i think there IS room for both - by cutting down on features and just letting the small device being a data window accessing the "digital hub" via WiFi or GPRS use keep it cheap and small and therefore always with you.
A slightly larger model is what you read and browse on, having all the features of a smaller unit.
By offloading storage and connectors you increase battery time and space - let the server be the storage and the processor if need be. Make the PDA or tablet mainly a user interface device to the network.
Timothy..... the niche of a Tablet vs PDA is basically one of screen size.
That immersive reading you like to do on sunday, that spreadsheet of data or a picture or graph, all of those are easier on the eyes and wrists by putting it on a larger display.
Frankly, i think there IS room for both - by cutting down on features and just letting the small device being a data window accessing the "digital hub" via WiFi or GPRS use keep it cheap and small and therefore always with you.
A slightly larger model is what you read and browse on, having all the features of a smaller unit.
By offloading storage and connectors you increase battery time and space - let the server be the storage and the processor if need be. Make the PDA or tablet mainly a user interface device to the network.
Screen size?
Cplmd...with regards to the Medical field, I agree that a tablet would make sense in that setting. I doubt, however, that Apple will agressively go after that specific market.
With regards to screen size...that's my point! I already do that more intensive reading (Sunday paper) on my laptop. I love my laptop. It works great for me. Why do I need a Tablet to do the same thing? Especially since a large part of my internet use includes inputing a lot of text on various discussion sites.
Here's the product mix as I see it:
Desktop: Fast, expandable, main workstation
Laptop: Portable, multi-purpose computing
PDA: Ultra-portable, go anywhere.
The Tablet would vie for marketshare from the laptop. It wouldn't, in my opinion, create any *new* market of users. And, Apple could not produce it for any less of a cost than an iBook. So, you'd basically shrink your market of iBook buyers by the amount of buyers who would buy a Tablet instead.
But...I maintain...what do I do in the grocery line? On the bus? At the Mariner's game?
Cplmd...with regards to the Medical field, I agree that a tablet would make sense in that setting. I doubt, however, that Apple will agressively go after that specific market.
With regards to screen size...that's my point! I already do that more intensive reading (Sunday paper) on my laptop. I love my laptop. It works great for me. Why do I need a Tablet to do the same thing? Especially since a large part of my internet use includes inputing a lot of text on various discussion sites.
Here's the product mix as I see it:
Desktop: Fast, expandable, main workstation
Laptop: Portable, multi-purpose computing
PDA: Ultra-portable, go anywhere.
The Tablet would vie for marketshare from the laptop. It wouldn't, in my opinion, create any *new* market of users. And, Apple could not produce it for any less of a cost than an iBook. So, you'd basically shrink your market of iBook buyers by the amount of buyers who would buy a Tablet instead.
But...I maintain...what do I do in the grocery line? On the bus? At the Mariner's game?
To my mind laptop -> tablet
I see a tablet INITIALLY as the evolution of the laptop
you don't lose your keyboard - a USB slot keeps that - heck they even hang them off handhelds!
But by allowing the removal of the keyboard you make a device I could curl up with on the sofa - sorry, but personally a laptop doesn't do that for me.
Just as you have iBooks and TiBooks you could make your mix include TabletBooks
You expand the market into area that don't want or need a keyboard and use the same technology for you hand held market.
And don't get me wrong - I hear and completely agree with you on the handheld need and ubiquity - I love to see Apple do it right - in fact, I love to see them do a cell phone right too.
I see a tablet INITIALLY as the evolution of the laptop
you don't lose your keyboard - a USB slot keeps that - heck they even hang them off handhelds!
But by allowing the removal of the keyboard you make a device I could curl up with on the sofa - sorry, but personally a laptop doesn't do that for me.
Just as you have iBooks and TiBooks you could make your mix include TabletBooks
You expand the market into area that don't want or need a keyboard and use the same technology for you hand held market.
And don't get me wrong - I hear and completely agree with you on the handheld need and ubiquity - I love to see Apple do it right - in fact, I love to see them do a cell phone right too.
If we listed off all the products Apple could do better.......
Arn would kick us off for killing his server. The question is : Would Apple do a Tablet? I think they would. As to Timmy..........cplmd has things well in hand.
"GOBBLES!!!"
Arn would kick us off for killing his server. The question is : Would Apple do a Tablet? I think they would. As to Timmy..........cplmd has things well in hand.
"GOBBLES!!!"