Teacher fired for condom demonstration

[dricci]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
And we do need to teach children to wait until adulthood before having sex. Not teach children this is how you do it!

Yeah, the current methods of teaching this are working real well, dude

Peer preasure and TV are more of an influence on kids than someone standing in front of a room saying "WAIT TIL YOUR MARRIED OR ELSE!"

If a kid wants to do it with someone, then they're going to do it. Period. Same with killing, drinking, drugs, etc. No laws/bans/lectures are going to change that. But education on how to do it SAFELY and PROPERLY is KEY to preventing pregnancy and AIDS. Face it, telling kids NO doesn't change ANYTHING. Proper education can.

 

[Dont Hurt Me]

Originally posted by dricci


Yeah, the current methods of teaching this are working real well, dude

Peer preasure and TV are more of an influence on kids than someone standing in front of a room saying "WAIT TIL YOUR MARRIED OR ELSE!"

If a kid wants to do it with someone, then they're going to do it. Period. Same with killing, drinking, drugs, etc. No laws/bans/lectures are going to change that. But education on how to do it SAFELY and PROPERLY is KEY to preventing pregnancy and AIDS. Face it, telling kids NO doesn't change ANYTHING. Proper education can.

Proper Education would tell them dont have sex until you are an adult and married!Otherwise there are to many negative things can happen!pregnancy!STDs,Let me say it one more time for the nuckleheads- PREGNANCY!kids dont need to be having kids and condoms do break and leak all of my liberal freinds so the best thing we can do is educate/educate/educate! Not teach hey slap one of these on and you'll be fine!

 

[lmalave]

Originally posted by dricci


Yeah, the current methods of teaching this are working real well, dude

Peer preasure and TV are more of an influence on kids than someone standing in front of a room saying "WAIT TIL YOUR MARRIED OR ELSE!"

If a kid wants to do it with someone, then they're going to do it. Period. Same with killing, drinking, drugs, etc. No laws/bans/lectures are going to change that. But education on how to do it SAFELY and PROPERLY is KEY to preventing pregnancy and AIDS. Face it, telling kids NO doesn't change ANYTHING. Proper education can.

Read my previous post. This is a CULTURAL problem, NOT an education problem. Do you REALLY think that teenage pregnancy is due to ignorance? Look, kids are going to do what they're going to do INCLUDING HAVING UNPROTECTED SEX! Most of these girls KNOW they can get pregnant, for goodness sakes!!! To try to say that they don't know is EXTREMELY condescending, don't you think
The problem is SELF-ESTEEM. A large number of these teenage pregnancies are caused by significantly older males that prey on these girls and know how to manipulate them. Girls that have a strong sense of themselves aren't going to let a guy pressure them into doing something against their own better judgement.

 

[FredAkbar]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
Proper Education would tell them dont have sex until you are an adult and married!Otherwise there are to many negative things can happen!pregnancy!STDs,Let me say it one more time for the nuckleheads- PREGNANCY!kids dont need to be having kids and condoms do break and leak all of my liberal freinds so the best thing we can do is educate/educate/educate! Not teach hey slap one of these on and you'll be fine!

I have to agree with dricci's post (a couple posts back). Even if "proper education" told kids not to have sex at all, and even if parents stressed it too, a lot of kids would still do it anyway. True, there probably would be less kids having sex--but there would also be less kids using protection. We all know that a kid could easily decide to ignore whatever their parents tell them, if they could get away with it, and if they were pressured into doing so by peers or TV or whatever.

If this was a perfect, orderly, disciplined world, then yes, parents could say "don't have sex until you're married" and all kids would listen. However, that world is just a fantasy. I mean, come on, do you really think that if we just have parents telling kids not to do it, that kids will always listen?

 

[The Sheck]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
publicly funded schools should respect those who do not want this taught to their children!

They do. For things like sex ed. it's OPTIONAL for most schools. If you don't want your kid there, check the box next to 'no' on the parental notification slip and send it back in. If you're worried about your child sitting in a study hall instead of learning something for the week that sex ed. is taught, request an alternate assignment for your child to do (usually one is provided regardless of if you ask or not). It's not a big deal, really.

If you're upset about this, why not attend a local school board meeting to express your views? They occur once every two weeks usually, and allow plenty of time for parents and citizens to express their views on how the school should be run.

 

[ejb190]

There is a problem with how sex education is taught. They tell the kids beware of HIV and getting pregnant, hand the kids condoms and tout "safe sex" as a cure all. But they forget about the 30 odd other STD's, some of which are transmitted just by contact.

And what about these kid's emotional health? A couple of kids have sex. The girl is "in love" and thinks the guy is committed to her. The guy dumps her and brags to his friends about his "conquest". Distraught and depressed the girl tries to O.D. What good was the sex education class?

I used to work with high school kids. You would be surprised how often something like this plays out...

 

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
Proper Education would tell them dont have sex until you are an adult and married!Otherwise there are to many negative things can happen!pregnancy!STDs,Let me say it one more time for the nuckleheads- PREGNANCY!kids dont need to be having kids and condoms do break and leak all of my liberal freinds so the best thing we can do is educate/educate/educate! Not teach hey slap one of these on and you'll be fine!

wow... i'm all for teaching your own children morals and trying to impress upon them your beliefs in right and wrong, etc. including feelings about sex.

but two things.

1. thinking you can TELL kids NOT to do something and have them listen... do you actually think that makes sense? sure, you bring up the reasons, but you don't just TELL them. you explain it all to them.

2. where does "liberal" or "conservative" really come into this? believe it or not, i bet some generally liberal folks feel that sex ed shouldn't be in school. and likewise, i bet some conservative type folks think it's a good idea. so there's no need to just try to label all the people you disagree with.

i think that the biological aspect of sex ed should be taught in schools. definitely. and i'm not sure about the rest. yes, parents *should* be the ones to teach their children about the moral implications of sex and all that... but what about people whose parents aren't teaching them? i don't think they should be disregarded... but i don't have a good solution to do some of both.

tough call...

 

[vniow]

warning: personal beliefs and opinions below

The problem with most sex ed classes is that they stink, period.

All they do is make the students sit down and watch a bunch of slides showing where all the little organs go and whatnot while the little 13 year olds are in the back are giggling over the word 'gonads'.
If the schools want to teach real sex ed, they're going to have to go a lot farther than basic biology. They're going to have to teach kids about anal sex, oral sex, why some people feel the urge to have sex with animals or dead people, masturbation, homosexuality, gender dysphoria, fethishes, love, hate, jealousy, commitment, ahy some people are uptight about it and why some people are too expressive with it, all things sex cuz there's a lot more to it than biology folks.

But the reason why current sex ed or my idealized version of sex ed aren't very effective is because of one simple thing called relationship.
My idealized version of sex ed would be taught in schools not to the kids, but to the parents because the relationship that the kids have with the teachers is not the same relationship that the kids have with the parents and is not the kind of relationship which would be most effective in teaching kids about sex in my opinion, because sex is all about closeness and I don't know about you, but I have a closer relationship with my parents then my teachers.

If teaching kids sex ed makes you and the kids uncomfortable, good. Nobody ever really learns anything when the water's calm.

 

[dubbelhund]

Originally posted by lmalave


I think you (or the article you're quoting) isn't entirely accurate. How do you explain the fact that all the countries above have a much lower rate of drug use? How do you explain that they have a much lower incidence of violence? (school violence, for example). The answer I think is pretty clear: the real reason for the above problems are cultural and socio-economic. Do you seriously think Japan's teenage birth rate is due to their comprehensive sex education? Yeah, RIGHT! C'mon, I know you're smarter than that.

If we want to lower teenage pregnancy, we need to work on the social and economic issues that are behind almost 100% of the cases.

I don't "think" anything. This is not an article, it is statistics taken from two reliable sources: Planned Parenthood and the Alan Guttmacher Institute. I don't understand your reasoning? Who said anything about drugs and violence? I don't "think" anything about the birthrate among the Japanese teenagers. I have not lived in Japan (yet) so I do not have personal experience. But I do have experience with other countries mentioned. I am from Sweden but I live in the US because my wife is from here and I agree with you that the underlying issue is a socio-economic one.

I have a real problem with all the arrogant and ignorant, patriotic fanatics in this country and I don't understand where all their anger and fear is coming from. This is NOT the greatest country in the world, although it could be if you all started questioning things a little more - which is how improvement is achieved, by the way.

 

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by ejb190
There is a problem with how sex education is taught. They tell the kids beware of HIV and getting pregnant, hand the kids condoms and tout "safe sex" as a cure all. But they forget about the 30 odd other STD's, some of which are transmitted just by contact.

And what about these kid's emotional health? A couple of kids have sex. The girl is "in love" and thinks the guy is committed to her. The guy dumps her and brags to his friends about his "conquest". Distraught and depressed the girl tries to O.D. What good was the sex education class?

I used to work with high school kids. You would be surprised how often something like this plays out...

Our sex ed covered all of the types of dieases, we had whole units on them, and they also went into great depth with the emotional maturity required to have sex-- and attempted to make kids feel a little safer in being open with their parents.

But at the same time, going back to BTTM and my later discussion, on gay rights. Our sex ed class was taught by a very conservative woman who used a great deal of propoganda (some "spiritual" and religious "proof" too) to tell the kids that homosexuality is wrong, period. Now aside from how devistating that is to a closeted gay teenager, it's a moral and ethical opinion that my parents and I were deeply offended by her teaching. So i can understand the need for there to be a line between sex ed and "sex theory" if you will... they need to let the parents teach kids morals.

I still have to believe there is a real use for sex ed in public schools; especially since it's optional... tho if i ever have kids i doubt i'll wait for the educational system to teach them the birds and the bees. children of proactive parents don't need their school to teach them sex ed-- but a lot of parents never even discuss this with their children, and until they start, someone has to teach stuff to them sometime-- or else they'll "learn" it for themselves.

pnw

 

[Sun Baked]

It's not like the teacher brought in Pee Wee Herman to demonstrate the proper use of a condoms to all the little kiddies.

[edit -- Ooops, bad example. ]

 

[lmalave]

Originally posted by dubbelhund

I don't "think" anything. This is not an article, it is statistics taken from two reliable sources: Planned Parenthood and the Alan Guttmacher Institute. I don't understand your reasoning? Who said anything about drugs and violence?

I'm not arguing the data, I'm just arguing the logic. Correlation does NOT equal causality. Just because those countries have lower incidence of teenage pregnancy and also have better sex education, does not in itself prove that they are related. Just look at the data! Why does your country Sweden have 5 times the teenage pregnancy rate of Japan? I really don't think it's because Japan's sex education is 5 times better. Ironically, you own data proves that sex education is largely irrelevant, and that other issues have much more impact.

And if you don't see the link between teenage pregnancy, drugs, and violence then you're thinking about this issue very superficially. Poverty and hopelessness are the real issue behind teenage pregnancy, and also behind drugs and violence. Saying that the issue behind teenage pregnancy is sex education is in my opinion very condescending, and just serves to fuel the argument conservatives make that poor people are just so stupid they don't know any better. These kids KNOW they can get pregnant, they just don't care enough about themselves or their future to stand up to a guy that is pressuring them to have unprotected sex.

 

[Kid Red]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


Wow, that's odd, I NEVER had any sex education in my schools. We had one girl get pregnant in school, and she went on to go to Harvard, and now works for NASA as a flight engineer. So, along with math, english, and science, OUR PARENTS WERE GOOD PARENTS AND TOLD US WHAT WE NEEDED TO KNOW! This was in the 80's at the height of AIDS. So, I hope that you will teach your daughter about sex on your own. Do you have a daughter, or is this a future daughter? So, you had condoms demonstrated at YOUR ELEMENTARY SCHOOL. Where did you go to school? That is just sick, elementary school! Your talking 5th grade and below right.

Man this world is so friggin warped it is unreal.

Yes, 5th grade sex education, Miami Fl.

 

[Kid Red]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
It boils down to who is supposed to be raising our children us? or big brother uncle sam/liberal democrats who think Govt should be in every aspect of our lifes! Sorry all you libearals that think Govt should do all! I VOTE FOR US! Lets leave parenting to parents. You are allways going to have a few parents that are bad parents thats a fact! But the majority of parents love their kids so lets get govt the hell out of our lives! And we do need to teach children to wait until adulthood before having sex. Not teach children this is how you do it!

Ok, I'm sorry, and you'll get mad probably but that is the most ignorant masseage so far in this thread and there's some think republican crap going on. Kids will be kids, no matter how hard you try. Kids will listen to the friends, socum to peer pressure or hell, just plain follow thier hormones. Sex education teaches them, hey if you do go behind your parents backs, if you do not honor their wishes, at least don't get pregnant or catch a ****ing fatal disease. Sex is real (at least in uraban/suburban communities and cities with more then a few hundred people) and it will happen wether you like it or not. The best thing to do is have your kids educated about some of the possible dangers associated with sex. When i had sex education in 5th grade, I had no idea (along with hlaf my class) that babies came out of mom's vagina. I lost my virginity in 7th grade, and thankfully because of sex ed, I used a condom. So when the girl got mad I broke up with her and claimed to be preganant, i knew she was lying (and she was-urine test) I would've been in 8th grade with a kid. Thankfully, tho, some of you here don't run the country. That's why you should stick to the right and we'll take care of waht's 'left'

 

[Liamcow]

How about a voice of reason?

Who wants some information on this from an *actual* student, not a parent with (excuse my severe atheism) an unusual religion and overly boasted moral code...
and since I just took sex ed 2 years ago, it couldn't have changed very much so I believe my ideas will be fresh.

1) We're dealing with way different knowledge now than back in the day, most people I know were already learning most of the female anatomy and sex on the internet by age 10 or 12 and around the time we took sex ed mostly all had gotten lets say... far enough.

2) Everyone I know (including myself) knew what condoms are for, what they look like, where they go, etc, etc. BUT we never knew *exactly* how it went on, or that keeping it in your wallet wears it down and makes it go bad, you know, simple stuff like that...

3) As i said, we're more well-rounded these days, but not just the guys, girls are just (or more) as interested in learning about sex by the 8th grade. but because of sex ed, now we know that when it happens, be f***ing careful.

I think the guy went a tiny bit extreme with the mood music and lighting, that probably just grossed the students out...they ARENT stupid...

 

[DakotaGuy]

I am a 5th grade teacher and I do feel that sex ed is very important especially in this day and age. I think the teacher deserved to be fired because the way he went about it was wrong. Mood lighting? Bananas? WOW! Maybe he thought it would get attention, but probably the wrong type.

Kids need to be educated about the hazards of having sex and why it is better to wait until they are older. They need to know what type of disease can be transfurred and most of all they need to know that girls can get pregnant.

I am not saying hand out condoms or do demonstrations. To me that just reinforces the idea, "Everyone does it" They need to be aware of ways to make it safer if they choose that type of behavior, but it should never be promoted by the teacher.

I am sick and tired of issues like this made into a liberal or conservative agenda. Yes a good percentage of public school teachers are Democrats, but just because I am liberal politically, does not mean I do not understand what is and what is not right in the classroom. What that guy did was a disgrace to the name of teachers. Yes sex ed is important, but it is also important to put thought into what you are teaching.

You know I like the idea...Let the parents do it...but guess what...most will not. I do things for kids all the time that the parents should do, but if I don't who will? I do not want my students to become a burden on society because I did not do my job even if it goes above and beyond it sometimes.

 

[arn]

Originally posted by Backtothemac

My mind will never change on this. It will never, ever be the job of a school to teach my daughter about sex. Nothing will ever change that.

Backtothemac,

I realize this is a very heated subject for you... so I don't want to piss you off... but let's explore this a little...

What specifically is it that you wouldn't want taught in sex ed?

I mean specifically... because let's be frank... think back - when did you learn about "sex" in general... kids are kids... and Liamcow's post signifies... most kids know about sex, oral sex, condoms, pre-marital sex etc.... by the time they reach these classes... right? I mean, even with TV and PG-13 Movies, they know enough to get in trouble...

I don't believe these classes generally try to teach morality or right/wrong... I can only think of a few areas or topics right off hand

Anatomy/Reproduction
Birthcontrol devices and their Proper use
Sexually Transmitted Diseases

arn

 

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by arn


Backtothemac,

I realize this is a very heated subject for you... so I don't want to piss you off... but let's explore this a little...

What specifically is it that you wouldn't want taught in sex ed?

I mean specifically... because let's be frank... think back - when did you learn about "sex" in general... kids are kids... and Liamcow's post signifies... most kids know about sex, oral sex, condoms, pre-marital sex etc.... by the time they reach these classes... right? I mean, even with TV and PG-13 Movies, they know enough to get in trouble...

I don't believe these classes generally try to teach morality or right/wrong... I can only think of a few areas or topics right off hand

Anatomy/Reproduction
Birthcontrol devices and their Proper use
Sexually Transmitted Diseases

arn

Wow, I must have hit a mark, because I have never seen you in a Political thread. This is the thing about it that really drives me nuts. I believe that premarital sex is wrong. Thus it should not even be discussed. It will be explained to my daughter growning up in the church that it is wrong. People can call me narrow minded, but to me, the Bible is law, and it is absolute. We cannot pick and choose what we like and dislike about it.

So for me, I believe that sex, the aspects of it, should be taught by me. If my daughter doesn't have to take the class, then that is fine, but I think that to much information for young men can be a bad thing, as it could lead to them doing stupid ****. So, as long as she doesn't go to study hall instead of sex ed, then I could be ok with it. But then again, since I find it offensive, should it not be taught. Because if someone finds religion offensive it cannot be taught.

 

[dubbelhund]

Originally posted by lmalave

I'm not arguing the data, I'm just arguing the logic. Correlation does NOT equal causality. Just because those countries have lower incidence of teenage pregnancy and also have better sex education, does not in itself prove that they are related. Just look at the data! Why does your country Sweden have 5 times the teenage pregnancy rate of Japan? I really don't think it's because Japan's sex education is 5 times better. Ironically, you own data proves that sex education is largely irrelevant, and that other issues have much more impact.

And if you don't see the link between teenage pregnancy, drugs, and violence then you're thinking about this issue very superficially. Poverty and hopelessness are the real issue behind teenage pregnancy, and also behind drugs and violence. Saying that the issue behind teenage pregnancy is sex education is in my opinion very condescending, and just serves to fuel the argument conservatives make that poor people are just so stupid they don't know any better. These kids KNOW they can get pregnant, they just don't care enough about themselves or their future to stand up to a guy that is pressuring them to have unprotected sex.

Again, I made no attempt to draw conclusions (like you do) because I do not pretend to be an expert (like you do) at the subject. I would love to find out more about what the contributing factors are, so I will ask my friend who is a very successful Global Health Consultant, to hear what she has to say on the subject. You would be a fool to assume that sex education does not at all play a part in the choices a teenager makes when it comes to sex. It is safe to assume that sex education is a contributing factor as well as the influence of parents, and many other things. You, on the other hand, are making a whole lot of preconcieved assumptions: "Poverty and hopelessness are the real issue behind teenage pregnancy, and also behind drugs and violence." So this is a class issue? Are we an expert on the subject? Again, I would say that these issues probably play a part, but not as much as you would like to think. "Saying that the issue behind teenage pregnancy is sex education is in my opinion very condescending, and just serves to fuel the argument conservatives make that poor people are just so stupid they don't know any better." Another wild assumption of yours, EDUCATION is a good thing regardless of if you are poor or not! Especially to an inexperienced teenager who is very likely to need guidance in making the right choices. Both parents and teachers can aid in providing this.

The US is 20 years behind Sweden when it comes to living standards, health care, and education. I am not complaining, just comparing from my own experience (yes, there are many areas where the reverse is true too). We do have high taxes but our excellent health care is free and there are youth clinics that will give out advice, condoms and do STD tests, all for free. Believe me, this is a good thing! And no, this does not encourage them to have sex, because they will anyways, with or without your support.

I have more fun subjects for you to ramble ignorant remarks over. ILITTERACY. Guess how many millions of Americans can't even read. Guess what the percentage of Americans who do not have a passport (meaning they have never left the country) is. And there's more...

 

[arn]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


Wow, I must have hit a mark, because I have never seen you in a Political thread.

This is the thing about it that really drives me nuts. I believe that premarital sex is wrong. Thus it should not even be discussed.

Heh... well, it borders on health issues... which I have a peripheral interest in...

I understand you feel that premarital sex is wrong... but to be honest, B2TM... it's everywhere - I find it surprising you have such a strong stance on this when it's all over the place... movies, tv, books etc....

it's impossible to avoid the concept of pre-marital sex...

I'm assuming you feel this was encouraging or condoning premarital sex? ... because you have to admit, kids are going to be aware that it exists as an entity.

arn

 

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by arn


Heh... well, it borders on health issues... which I have a peripheral interest in...

I understand you feel that premarital sex is wrong... but to be honest, B2TM... it's everywhere - I find it surprising you have such a strong stance on this when it's all over the place... movies, tv, books etc....

it's impossible to avoid the concept of pre-marital sex...

I'm assuming you feel this was encouraging or condoning premarital sex? ... because you have to admit, kids are going to be aware that it exists as an entity.

arn

Oh, I agree with you completely there. I think that it is all over the place. My daughter will not have a Britney Spears, or Pink, or Christina Aguleara (sp) for a roll model. We will teach her how to really be in the world. I actually have a friend who has never in his life said a curse word, nor watch a rated R movie. I am not a saint, but I believe that it is a moral issue to have people teaching my daughter something that we consider to be immoral.

Being aware of pre-marital sex in society, and having it taught to you in school are not the same. Especially the way this teacher did it. That is the kind of thing that bothers me. If the teacher was teaching from a perspective of abstinence, then I would accept it. They don't they teach from a perspective of prevention.

 

[dubbelhund]

Originally posted by lmalave


Read my previous post. This is a CULTURAL problem, NOT an education problem. Do you REALLY think that teenage pregnancy is due to ignorance? Look, kids are going to do what they're going to do INCLUDING HAVING UNPROTECTED SEX! Most of these girls KNOW they can get pregnant, for goodness sakes!!! To try to say that they don't know is EXTREMELY condescending, don't you think
The problem is SELF-ESTEEM. A large number of these teenage pregnancies are caused by significantly older males that prey on these girls and know how to manipulate them. Girls that have a strong sense of themselves aren't going to let a guy pressure them into doing something against their own better judgement.

Again Imalave is pulling random assumptions out of his ass!

 

[arn]

Originally posted by Backtothemac

Being aware of pre-marital sex in society, and having it taught to you in school are not the same. Especially the way this teacher did it. That is the kind of thing that bothers me. If the teacher was teaching from a perspective of abstinence, then I would accept it. They don't they teach from a perspective of prevention.

I just glanced at the article... it looks like he cross boundaries...

but I don't think most sex-ed classes are "teaching" premartial sex... rather the proper use of the tools, such as the prevention of pregnancy and avoidance of STD's

arn

 

[mangoduck]

backtothemac (and whoever else shares his extreme viewpoint):

you need to chill out. seriously. it's not like the guy demonstrated this with the actual equipment -- he used a frickin banana! i've seen a school nurse try to explain how to properly use a condom, and i would think this is easier.

it's great if you prefer to teach your own kids about this privately, but the reason some schools have a sex ed class to begin with is because not all parents give a crap or take the time. it's great if YOU do, but the sad fact remains. a rare example of public school systems being RESPONSIBLE, and you're against it?

if it pisses you off so much for your child to be taught these things alongside everyday curriculum, then by all means write them a note so they can opt out of the class. they tell students beforehand when the class is going to be, so it shouldn't be a problem. all kinds of diseases out there to stumble on, and you're worried about study hall?? what horrible emotional scarring THERE, eh? get real! if it means spending ONE CLASS of ONE SCHOOL DAY in a study hall, then so be it. this is all the longer they were for me in 5th and 8th grade; we're talking LESS THAN AN HOUR. and if your daughter's school refuses to excuse her, i'd like to have a word with them. this should not be a mandatory class.

usually students are shown some kind of video, detailing the parts (tastefully) and explaining how they work. then some discussion afterward about what they saw as well as disease awareness, aftermath of pregnancy, etc. i think this guy's approach was unique in a good way; trying to relate to them on their level using scenarios that aren't bland, unlikely, and unrealistic. reminds me of anti-drug commercials where someone is confronted with a (fairly common) decision and demonstrates how to handle it. if it's ok there, why not applied to sex ed? granted the article doesn't explain exactly what took place, but from what i can tell it was acceptable.

and it's great if someone you know got pregnant in school, but managed to be very successful in life. hurrah for them! this doesn't have any effect on the remaining MAJORITY of pregnant teens that do NOT continue school, and do NOT live up to their full potential because of the burden they now have of caring for a child. do you mean to say it's ok if someone has no clue and severely alters their future for the worse? wouldn't you like the otherwise uneducated people to be educated, and prevent more of this? being proactive is not a bad thing.

lastly, don't bring "liberal" and "conservative" into this. political parties all too often contradict themselves, so these terms essentially have no meaning.

 

[lmalave]

Originally posted by dubbelhund



Again, I made no attempt to draw conclusions (like you do) because I do not pretend to be an expert (like you do) at the subject. I would love to find out more about what the contributing factors are, so I will ask my friend who is a very successful Global Health Consultant, to hear what she has to say on the subject. You would be a fool to assume that sex education does not at all play a part in the choices a teenager makes when it comes to sex. It is safe to assume that sex education is a contributing factor as well as the influence of parents, and many other things. You, on the other hand, are making a whole lot of preconcieved assumptions: "Poverty and hopelessness are the real issue behind teenage pregnancy, and also behind drugs and violence." So this is a class issue? Are we an expert on the subject? Again, I would say that these issues probably play a part, but not as much as you would like to think. "Saying that the issue behind teenage pregnancy is sex education is in my opinion very condescending, and just serves to fuel the argument conservatives make that poor people are just so stupid they don't know any better." Another wild assumption of yours, EDUCATION is a good thing regardless of if you are poor or not! Especially to an inexperienced teenager who is very likely to need guidance in making the right choices. Both parents and teachers can aid in providing this.

The US is 20 years behind Sweden when it comes to living standards, health care, and education. I am not complaining, just comparing from my own experience (yes, there are many areas where the reverse is true too). We do have high taxes but our excellent health care is free and there are youth clinics that will give out advice, condoms and do STD tests, all for free. Believe me, this is a good thing! And no, this does not encourage them to have sex, because they will anyways, with or without your support.

I have more fun subjects for you to ramble ignorant remarks over. ILITTERACY. Guess how many millions of Americans can't even read. Guess what the percentage of Americans who do not have a passport (meaning they have
never left the country) is. And there's more...

I don't have to be an expert to see that the very data that you provide is contradicting your thesis. Sex education can make a marginal difference yes, but again, how do you explain that Sweden has 5 times the teenage pregnancy rate of Japan? The logical conclusion to be drawn is that there is a characteristic of Japanese society that's at work there, and I don't know anything about Japan's sex education programs but I doubt that's the reason. Simply stating differences between countries proves nothing. To try to prove a link to sex education you'd have to do before/after studies, seen what effect a sex education program had in a school, city, state, etc. after it was implemented.

You're right, my evidence is anectodal and not scientific. I grew up poor, as did my parents and their parents and their parents and so forth. I have cousins that were pregnant as teenagers and dropped out of high school. My father is a social worker that's worked in impoverished schools at both the middle school and high school level (and is also a certified sex therapist - but that's for adults). My mother has worked in community centers for immigrants where among other things they gave out free condoms. In fact, when I started dating in high school she brought me a bunch of condoms in various textures and colors (much to my chagrin at the time).

HOWEVER, let me point out that a lot of the "studies" that you read about are NOT based on rigorous accepted scientific methodolgies either. The are just policy papers that use "evidence" selectively to "prove" a point that they feel is obvious. Just because a paper is eloquently written does NOT mean it's true. Aristotle, after all, thought it was obvious that heavy objects fell faster than lighter objects, and it's certainly not because he wasn't smart! It just seemed "obvious".

And if you really want to get into a discussion of why Sweden is better than the U.S., than who's the arrogant one? I think you have to be more precise: Sweden is more egalitarian than the U.S., NOT "20 years ahead" in living standards, education, and health as you maintain. Yes, the median standard of living is higher in Sweden (despite what Americans would like to think - they look at averages that are skewed by the millionaires that own almost half the wealth in the U.S.). But by the same token I'm fairly certain that for the top 40% or so in the U.S., education and health are far superior than for the top 40% in Sweden (especially if you take into account college-level education). The best universities in the world are in the U.S., as well as many of the top medical institutions, and those can can afford it receive the full benefit of these.