Teardowns Confirm 13-Inch and 15-Inch Touch Bar MacBook Pros Have Non-Removable SSDs

[repoman27]

Is that you Phil?
You've got it all wrong.
SSD's, RAM and Batteries have always been user replaceable and a lot of use want it to stay that way.
Why is this? Because of the user experience. Here are a few reasons:

1. Not everyone lives in a city with an Apple store. Being able to replace things themselves gives a better experience.
2. When I require a $150 component to be replaced, I do not want a bad experience where the repair cost is 10 times that amount.
3. I want control over my data, that is a good experience and having the SSD soldered in takes away my options. Perhaps I am an employee of an organisation that needs to swap out drives before devices are disposed of.
4. When a laptop is 5 years old, I can no longer get service for it from Apple. By not soldering, I have a good experience at that point. I have been in this situation before. I have a perfectly good laptop that Apple will not supply a battery for. Apple uses planned obsolescence. Batteries could have standard connectors such that if I need to replace a battery I could swap in any compatible battery, even a newer one. Again bad user experience.

I could go on but you get the picture.

Don't be an Apple apologist. Wouldn't you rather be able to replace the SSD, RAM and Batteries in your devices?
I'm glad that car manufacturers don't weld the wheels on.

Keeping the game the way it is!

I mean, ideally, I'd want my device to be awesome and not need to replace anything. Short of that, I'd like next day, on-site service provided by a highly skilled technician at no additional cost. And I want the SSD, RAM and batteries in my devices to offer sufficient capacity, outstanding performance and be reasonably priced, rather than be replaceable.

I'm typing this on a machine that I have personally:

replaced the HDD twice and then again with an SSD
maxed out the RAM and then replaced it again due to failure
replaced the power adapter 3 times and repaired it twice
replaced the battery twice
performed a BGA solder reflow on the GPU twice
replaced the entire logic board because I didn't want to do another reflow job
replaced the rubber feet twice (and one is missing again)

I remember the days when every IC on a circuit board was socketed, and I wouldn't prefer to go back to that. Devices will continue to become ever more integrated and more reliable as a result. We depend on that additional reliability to offset the effects of ever increasing device complexity. Many people enjoy working on their cars / computers, but there are even more out there that would rather not have to.

 

[yurc]

ouch..im afraid clever Phil would do this in another upcoming macs, said super thin iMac with all CPU GPU RAM SSD network card soldered.

 

[robeddie]

Me: facts
You: straw man
Me: facts
You: straw man

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent.

Actually, the new MBP is the 'straw', man. Because it sucks.

 

[kattskrall]

Can someone please explain to me (without going on a tear about profits and greed) what the advantages of doing this are, from a design standpoint?

It seems like the end-user is only (and understandably) upset about this.

I, for one, will not purchase another Mac laptop now or in the future, and it's because of things like this. I'm just trying to understand the reasoning behind their decision- the benefits, even. Anything.

They are trying to maximize profits by taking an early lead on a new architecture (USB c), however they are screwing up since they think the installed base can be controlled from a top down perspective.

 

[dilbert99]

Keeping the game the way it is!

I mean, ideally, I'd want my device to be awesome and not need to replace anything. Short of that, I'd like next day, on-site service provided by a highly skilled technician at no additional cost. And I want the SSD, RAM and batteries in my devices to offer sufficient capacity, outstanding performance and be reasonably priced, rather than be replaceable.

I'm typing this on a machine that I have personally:

replaced the HDD twice and then again with an SSD
maxed out the RAM and then replaced it again due to failure
replaced the power adapter 3 times and repaired it twice
replaced the battery twice
performed a BGA solder reflow on the GPU twice
replaced the entire logic board because I didn't want to do another reflow job
replaced the rubber feet twice (and one is missing again)

I remember the days when every IC on a circuit board was socketed, and I wouldn't prefer to go back to that. Devices will continue to become ever more integrated and more reliable as a result. We depend on that additional reliability to offset the effects of ever increasing device complexity. Many people enjoy working on their cars / computers, but there are even more out there that would rather not have to.

I feel your logic is flawed, a draw man even, I am asking for 3 things, replaceable ram, ssd and battery and you talk about socketing everything. I am talking about replacing thing that people expect to be able to replace. for those that don't want to tinker there are services for that. But in the new mbp, you can't. Apple has taken away that ability. There is no need to solder an ssd in. It does not make it more reliable. Having a daughter board makes sense unless you are Apple with planned obsolescence. On the 2012 MacBook that had soldered ram, there was physical space for a ram slot. Integration is fine, but allow options to add to the storage or ram later.

 

[dannys1]

• And the kicker user experience, I paid $2000 less than the MBP and less than I paid for my 2012 rMBP 4 years ago.

And you'll get $2000 less when you come to sell it, if it's even worth anything on the second hard market when you've finished with it (probably not).

 

[Santabean2000]

For real design progress, check out the Module Project:
http://themoduleproject.com/

This is what Apple should be aiming at.

 

[dilbert99]

And you'll get $2000 less when you come to sell it, if it's even worth anything on the second hard market when you've finished with it (probably not).

Sorry I don't get your logic, I'm not going to be able to sell a used MBP for $2000 more than my current laptop.
I got discount on my laptop that others don't normally get through my work which I why there was a large saving of $2000 over the MBP, Apple fix their prices so that you can't get discount apart from the odd 10% off day. I can also offset it against tax.
I never usually worry about resale values of computers and usually pass them down the family (currently have 5 laptops + 1 dead MBP in this house).

 

[Gudi]

You can argue all you like about how what Apple is doing fits nicely to your needs. But what you cannot do is state that other peoples needs are being met.

It doesn't fit my needs, it's way to expensive for me. I need Macs to be a lot cheaper. Apple chooses not to serve poor people like me, who can only spend EUR 1K max. But by definition the MacBook Pro is only made for people who can afford it. Money aside it is designed to give maximum performance in a portable device.

Apple certainly could have gone about this in other ways but chose their own path that does not match mine, so I have voted with my wallet. I'm sure Apple will miss the amount of money I have spent over the years.

You might want to google 'PC market profit share' and you will find that Apple has figured out ways to create value for their customers beyond being just another OEM manufacturer like each and every of their so-called competitors. By buying one of the low profit boxes, you decided to miss out on those benefits.

For example. Yes I will love USB-C in a few years, but in the here and now, my new laptop has 1 USB-C and 2 USB-A. I can have my sandisk ultra fit permanently plugged in to one of the USB-A. This is something that is not possible with USB-C. Apple could easily have left a single USB-A but didn't.

And that's one of the benefits. What you leave out of a system is equally importantly to what you put in it. The MacBook Pro is a better computer for having no 'spin three times' USB-A port and at the same time support the USB protocol and every USB device ever created.

It's a fallacy to believe your computer is better for still having an old inferior port. We already tested that theory with PS/2 ports alongside USB. Nobody paid a dime more for these boxes.

When a company has a monopoly position (or insert what ever word that you think is appropriate instead of monopoly) on their OS and they are the only ones licenced to create hardware for that OS, they have a higher standard to follow to ensure that they meet the needs of their customers.

I chose the word 'exploitable technological advantage'.

Just because Johhny has a thin fettish, doesn't mean that we have to suffer. Don't get me wrong, thin laptops are very sexy and desirable, but my ports to my use case are more important.

No they are not. The public interest for port unification is more important than your desire for backward plug shape compatibility. If your adapter inconvenience would be more important than the future of ports, than there would be an USB-A port on the MacBook Pro.

I'd rather have a thicker lighter device with more ports and replaceable parts than a thinner one, and yes weight is not directly equivalent to thickness. I have seen two laptops the same thickness with one being about double the weight of the other.

Thinness and lightness are not the main reasons to eliminate ports. The better is the enemy of the good and the mere existence of USB-C is reason enough to immeadiately stop manufacturing USB-A ports and peripherals.

Replacing battery, SSD or RAM is hardly hacking and a lot of us want choice.

It's never about what a customer wants. Every product is an offer, take it or leave it. Sometimes a limited choice is a part of the offer, but you don't get to decide which aspects of the offer are customizable and which options you get to chose from.

Please don't call me stupid. An what a load of crap you write. Just dismissing other people's needs is a bad look.

Most people are very bad at judging what their own needs are. Everyone at Apple is a professional in the business of finding out the needs of computer users and fulfilling them in the best possible way. The've been doing this for decades, don't think you can suddenly outsmart them.

Its all about user experience not the numbers.

The experience can be measured in numbers. One of these numbers is, how many times do you have to spin a USB plug before it fits in its port? USB-A 3 times vs. USB-C 1st time fit. Putting a USB-A port on a laptop completely ruins the plugging experience.

• More port does not equal better ports and you know I did not say that, more ports equals more choice which is a better experience

Wrong, not having to chose anything is the better experince, hence the 'it just works' experience.

• SSD is replaceable and how fast is it? I don't know, it is an m2 sata on a dell XPS 15, so I guess you could look it up. But simple fact is it builds my code fast enough, I can alter my pictures fine and edit my video. So yes, a replaceable SSD is a good experience.

You haven't replaced it yet, so how was the replaceability a better experience than the same SSD soldered to irreplacibility? There are hundreds of components on a motherboard, each and everyone might fail and could potentially benefit from being replaceable. But this would also add hundreds of connections which might come lose and could benefit from being soldered. The probability of something coming lose in a portable device is much higher than the component itself failing, that's why in the end everything will be soldered and glued into place. A sturdier laptop is a better experience.

• My HDMI port, probably the latest standard, again you can go look it up, but when I connect my laptop to do a presentation, I have had no issues, I don't need to go looking for a dongle in the room (I don't carry my bag to meetings), so again my user experience is improved and just fine with whatever HDMI port is in there.

You are assuming a work environment in which HDMI to HDMI cables are present in every room, but USB-C to HDMI cables are not. So you're basically externalising your bag to a drawer in each room. But other than with USB-C you can't use the same cable to charge your computer or transfer data to a hard drive or connect two computer. For all that you need three other cables also present in every room. The experience gets worse and worse.

• Never run an 5K display? I believe the dell usb-c (thunderbolt 3.1) supports 3 monitors, 2 of them being 4k displays. If I was connecting 2 or 3 displays, I'd probably want to use a docking station so that I only have a single cord to plug in to the laptop. That gives me the experience of a single cable to access keyboard, mouse, screens and storage.

See you begin to like USB-C/TB3 over USB-A. The all powerful single cable connection which also charges the laptop at all for ports, so you can connect it left or right.

• Kensington lock, cheap laptop, get off your high horse. It gives me an option to lock my laptop, better than not having it. As for cheap laptop, its as good as the MBP if not better in performance.

Kensington is about as safe as a bicycle lock. The only secure option is to never leave your MacBook alone, which is easier the smaller and lighter it is.

• TB3, yes I have that too and can get 40Gbps.

Good it's the only port you'll ever need, until TB4 comes out.

• And the kicker user experience, I paid $2000 less than the MBP and less than I paid for my 2012 rMBP 4 years ago.

See, you bought something cheaper. If it was something better it would have cost $2000 more. Simple economics, a Porsche is better than a Ford. You don't get to brag about how much cheaper your lesser car/computer is. If people for whom money is no issue would want to run DELLs, they wouldn't be so much cheaper.

 

[repoman27]

I feel your logic is flawed, a draw man even, I am asking for 3 things, replaceable ram, ssd and battery and you talk about socketing everything. I am talking about replacing thing that people expect to be able to replace. for those that don't want to tinker there are services for that. But in the new mbp, you can't. Apple has taken away that ability. There is no need to solder an ssd in. It does not make it more reliable. Having a daughter board makes sense unless you are Apple with planned obsolescence. On the 2012 MacBook that had soldered ram, there was physical space for a ram slot. Integration is fine, but allow options to add to the storage or ram later.

My response was more of a collection of thoughts, rather than an argument. But the point was that what we expect to be end-user replaceable / repairable with consumer goods changes constantly when viewed over time. And in the end, what we really want isn't actually repairable and upgradable devices, so much as it is affordable, working, high performance devices. People tend to fixate on the potential of what they can afford now in the event of some additional future investment, rather than focusing on maximizing the user experience in the near term within the confines of that same budget.

The mean time between failure of various components combined with the steady downward trend of price/performance or price/capacity has conditioned us to thinking that being able to replace these items is essential to deriving a minimum baseline of value or TCO for the overall device. That equation goes out the window when you shift technologies entirely.

There is no way to upgrade LPDDR RAM yourself, so Apple puts 16 GB (the maximum this platform can accommodate using this technology) in every 15-inch MBP. Making it removable would mean using DDR4 SO-DIMMS, increasing z-height and device volume considerably, and using an order of magnitude more power to achieve similar bandwidth. Although you might be able to add 32 or 64 GB total to the system, unless your workflow is truly memory bound, nothing you could do would make it perform as well as the configuration Apple is shipping.

The MTBF of SSDs and failure modes they experience are entirely different from HDDs. The PCIe storage era will in no way resemble what we considered the norm during the SATA or IDE/ATA era. You can't add a faster SSD than the one Apple is using here, period. And you can't add a larger SSD for much less than what Apple offers them for right now. The only benefit to a removable SSD would be deferring expenditure and waiting for the cost of the drives to drop substantially before upgrading. But once again, almost every move the end user could make would result in a regression in performance. The volume and z-height arguments are just as relevant here, too, in addition to cooling considerations.

The batteries in Macs today last over 3x more charge-discharge cycles than the removable ones they replaced, take up considerably less volume, are less likely to be damaged, and can be replaced by Apple for not much more than the replaceable ones used to cost. This is pretty much a 100% benefit to the consumer.

Furthermore, tighter integration really does decrease overall complexity and increase reliability. There are at least four separate forces guiding the design of Apple devices: engineering, industrial design, supply chain and accounting. Everyone focuses on Jony Ive's design fetishes and Tim Cook's driving of profit margins and stock price and ignore the other two. Apple had to design, test, manufacture and now stock an unprecedented 26 different logic boards for the 15-inch MBP alone. There is no way this is a win from an accounting or supply chain perspective, We all know Jony was a factor because it netted him thinner, lighter and more compact devices, but it also had to have support from the engineering team as well. There are real benefits here, even if they aren't immediately obvious to the casual observer.

 

[oneMadRssn]

True, but wouldn't you rather have control over your own ssd. Apple does not need to solder the ssd. I'm voting with my wallet here. Maybe you're happy to have your ssd soldered in and be an apple apologist but I'm not

In theory, I would rather have control over my own SSD. But I cannot name many tangible benefit of doing so.

You can vote with your wallet. But note that when buying a Windows PC, you'll need to vote again much sooner, and then get ready to vote again a bit after that. With responsible owners, Macs last longer. Much longer. I'd rather spend $2k every 5 years than spend $1k every two years.

 

[dilbert99]

It doesn't fit my needs, it's way to expensive for me. I need Macs to be a lot cheaper. Apple chooses not to serve poor people like me, who can only spend EUR 1K max. But by definition the MacBook Pro is only made for people who can afford it. Money aside it is designed to give maximum performance in a portable device.
You might want to google 'PC market profit share' and you will find that Apple has figured out ways to create value for their customers beyond being just another OEM manufacturer like each and every of their so-called competitors. By buying one of the low profit boxes, you decided to miss out on those benefits.
And that's one of the benefits. What you leave out of a system is equally importantly to what you put in it. The MacBook Pro is a better computer for having no 'spin three times' USB-A port and at the same time support the USB protocol and every USB device ever created.

It's a fallacy to believe your computer is better for still having an old inferior port. We already tested that theory with PS/2 ports alongside USB. Nobody paid a dime more for these boxes.
I chose the word 'exploitable technological advantage'.
No they are not. The public interest for port unification is more important than your desire for backward plug shape compatibility. If your adapter inconvenience would be more important than the future of ports, than there would be an USB-A port on the MacBook Pro.
Thinness and lightness are not the main reasons to eliminate ports. The better is the enemy of the good and the mere existence of USB-C is reason enough to immeadiately stop manufacturing USB-A ports and peripherals.
It's never about what a customer wants. Every product is an offer, take it or leave it. Sometimes a limited choice is a part of the offer, but you don't get to decide which aspects of the offer are customizable and which options you get to chose from.
Most people are very bad at judging what their own needs are. Everyone at Apple is a professional in the business of finding out the needs of computer users and fulfilling them in the best possible way. The've been doing this for decades, don't think you can suddenly outsmart them.

The experience can be measured in numbers. One of these numbers is, how many times do you have to spin a USB plug before it fits in its port? USB-A 3 times vs. USB-C 1st time fit. Putting a USB-A port on a laptop completely ruins the plugging experience.

• More port does not equal better ports and you know I did not say that, more ports equals more choice which is a better experience

Wrong, not having to chose anything is the better experince, hence the 'it just works' experience.

• SSD is replaceable and how fast is it? I don't know, it is an m2 sata on a dell XPS 15, so I guess you could look it up. But simple fact is it builds my code fast enough, I can alter my pictures fine and edit my video. So yes, a replaceable SSD is a good experience.

You haven't replaced it yet, so how was the replaceability a better experience than the same SSD soldered to irreplacibility? There are hundreds of components on a motherboard, each and everyone might fail and could potentially benefit from being replaceable. But this would also add hundreds of connections which might come lose and could benefit from being soldered. The probability of something coming lose in a portable device is much higher than the component itself failing, that's why in the end everything will be soldered and glued into place. A sturdier laptop is a better experience.

• My HDMI port, probably the latest standard, again you can go look it up, but when I connect my laptop to do a presentation, I have had no issues, I don't need to go looking for a dongle in the room (I don't carry my bag to meetings), so again my user experience is improved and just fine with whatever HDMI port is in there.

You are assuming a work environment in which HDMI to HDMI cables are present in every room, but USB-C to HDMI cables are not. So you're basically externalising your bag to a drawer in each room. But other than with USB-C you can't use the same cable to charge your computer or transfer data to a hard drive or connect two computer. For all that you need three other cables also present in every room. The experience gets worse and worse.

• Never run an 5K display? I believe the dell usb-c (thunderbolt 3.1) supports 3 monitors, 2 of them being 4k displays. If I was connecting 2 or 3 displays, I'd probably want to use a docking station so that I only have a single cord to plug in to the laptop. That gives me the experience of a single cable to access keyboard, mouse, screens and storage.

See you begin to like USB-C/TB3 over USB-A. The all powerful single cable connection which also charges the laptop at all for ports, so you can connect it left or right.

• Kensington lock, cheap laptop, get off your high horse. It gives me an option to lock my laptop, better than not having it. As for cheap laptop, its as good as the MBP if not better in performance.

Kensington is about as safe as a bicycle lock. The only secure option is to never leave your MacBook alone, which is easier the smaller and lighter it is.

• TB3, yes I have that too and can get 40Gbps.

Good it's the only port you'll ever need, until TB4 comes out.

• And the kicker user experience, I paid $2000 less than the MBP and less than I paid for my 2012 rMBP 4 years ago.

See, you bought something cheaper. If it was something better it would have cost $2000 more. Simple economics, a Porsche is better than a Ford. You don't get to brag about how much cheaper your lesser car/computer is. If people for whom money is no issue would want to run DELLs, they wouldn't be so much cheaper.

Geez, what a load of diatribe. Way to go digging up all my posts and quoting each one.

I'm sorry but I couldn't possibly read through your 10,000 word essay.

I haven't read it but will sum it up what it might say.

Apple can do no wrong and you would like to apologize on their behalf for all the crap they put their customers through and to hell with what needs we have.

You probably denigrate my choices and how I am thinking about it all wrong like yours is the only point of view in the world that matters.

You probably spout how all the reasons that Apple does things is to improve the user experience.

Am i getting close?
[doublepost=1479681247][/doublepost]

My response was more of a collection of thoughts, rather than an argument. But the point was that what we expect to be end-user replaceable / repairable with consumer goods changes constantly when viewed over time. And in the end, what we really want isn't actually repairable and upgradable devices, so much as it is affordable, working, high performance devices. People tend to fixate on the potential of what they can afford now in the event of some additional future investment, rather than focusing on maximizing the user experience in the near term within the confines of that same budget.

The mean time between failure of various components combined with the steady downward trend of price/performance or price/capacity has conditioned us to thinking that being able to replace these items is essential to deriving a minimum baseline of value or TCO for the overall device. That equation goes out the window when you shift technologies entirely.

There is no way to upgrade LPDDR RAM yourself, so Apple puts 16 GB (the maximum this platform can accommodate using this technology) in every 15-inch MBP. Making it removable would mean using DDR4 SO-DIMMS, increasing z-height and device volume considerably, and using an order of magnitude more power to achieve similar bandwidth. Although you might be able to add 32 or 64 GB total to the system, unless your workflow is truly memory bound, nothing you could do would make it perform as well as the configuration Apple is shipping.

The MTBF of SSDs and failure modes they experience are entirely different from HDDs. The PCIe storage era will in no way resemble what we considered the norm during the SATA or IDE/ATA era. You can't add a faster SSD than the one Apple is using here, period. And you can't add a larger SSD for much less than what Apple offers them for right now. The only benefit to a removable SSD would be deferring expenditure and waiting for the cost of the drives to drop substantially before upgrading. But once again, almost every move the end user could make would result in a regression in performance. The volume and z-height arguments are just as relevant here, too, in addition to cooling considerations.

The batteries in Macs today last over 3x more charge-discharge cycles than the removable ones they replaced, take up considerably less volume, are less likely to be damaged, and can be replaced by Apple for not much more than the replaceable ones used to cost. This is pretty much a 100% benefit to the consumer.

Furthermore, tighter integration really does decrease overall complexity and increase reliability. There are at least four separate forces guiding the design of Apple devices: engineering, industrial design, supply chain and accounting. Everyone focuses on Jony Ive's design fetishes and Tim Cook's driving of profit margins and stock price and ignore the other two. Apple had to design, test, manufacture and now stock an unprecedented 26 different logic boards for the 15-inch MBP alone. There is no way this is a win from an accounting or supply chain perspective, We all know Jony was a factor because it netted him thinner, lighter and more compact devices, but it also had to have support from the engineering team as well. There are real benefits here, even if they aren't immediately obvious to the casual observer.

Yet other manufacturers can do it.
Not everyone wants thing at the expense of losing out. There are literally thousands of responses stating how people would trade a mm for more utility.

Apple is lead by a bean counter and I am sorry to say this shows through. I wish it didn't.
[doublepost=1479681447][/doublepost]

In theory, I would rather have control over my own SSD. But I cannot name many tangible benefit of doing so.

You can vote with your wallet. But note that when buying a Windows PC, you'll need to vote again much sooner, and then get ready to vote again a bit after that. With responsible owners, Macs last longer. Much longer. I'd rather spend $2k every 5 years than spend $1k every two years.

That's not he case any more. The competition have caught up and pcs just don't need to be replaced as often any more.

But I do have a 2009 mbp that sucked a long time ago. Even upping the ram and putting in an ssd didn't help according to my wife. I needed to replace that one before 3 years had passed.

 

[oneMadRssn]

That's not he case any more. The competition have caught up and pcs just don't need to be replaced as often any more.

Is that so? Let's make it a bet. You buy a PC, and I'll buy a Mac. You tell me when you replace it, and I'll tell you when I replace it. We divide the cost per month, and compare. Winner buys steaks

I'll warn you though. I have a 2013 MBA 11" i7/8gb,512gb and I expect it to last to at least 2020 easy. Likely longer.

 

[robeddie]

Geez, what a load of diatribe. Way to go digging up all my posts and quoting each one.

I'm sorry but I couldn't possibly read through your 10,000 word essay.

I haven't read it but will sum it up what it might say.

Apple can do no wrong and you would like to apologize on their behalf for all the crap they put their customers through and to hell with what needs we have.

You probably denigrate my choices and how I am thinking about it all wrong like yours is the only point of view in the world that matters.

You probably spout how all the reasons that Apple does things is to improve the user experience.

Am i getting close?
[doublepost=1479681247][/doublepost]
Yet other manufacturers can do it.
Not everyone wants thing at the expense of losing out. There are literally thousands of responses stating how people would trade a mm for more utility.

Apple is lead by a bean counter and I am sorry to say this shows through. I wish it didn't.
[doublepost=1479681447][/doublepost]
That's not he case any more. The competition have caught up and pcs just don't need to be replaced as often any more.

But I do have a 2009 mbp that sucked a long time ago. Even upping the ram and putting in an ssd didn't help according to my wife. I needed to replace that one before 3 years had passed.

Well said. I feel your frustration with these remaining loyalists who seem to bend over backwards to find justification in all the crap Apple is doing these days.

But like I said in an earlier post, it may be time to let it go. Apple will ride this fickle consumerist wave of people who care more about what their computers look like, rather than what they can do ... and those of us who care about actual utility will have to find another option.

It's maddening, I agree, since Apple used to be our BEST option by far.
[doublepost=1479683836][/doublepost]

Is that so? Let's make it a bet. You buy a PC, and I'll buy a Mac. You tell me when you replace it, and I'll tell you when I replace it. We divide the cost per month, and compare. Winner buys steaks

I'll warn you though. I have a 2013 MBA 11" i7/8gb,512gb and I expect it to last to at least 2020 easy. Likely longer.

Good idea, since Apple probably won't be making any worthwhile computers through 2020 (maybe never again). So DO take care of what you have
[doublepost=1479684412][/doublepost]

And you'll get $2000 less when you come to sell it, if it's even worth anything on the second hard market when you've finished with it (probably not).

Yea, $2000 less in resale value. Right. If you're making up 'facts' to defend Apple (and I know you're smart enough to know it), doesn't that give you at least a little pause?

 

[repoman27]

Yet other manufacturers can do it.
Not everyone wants thing at the expense of losing out. There are literally thousands of responses stating how people would trade a mm for more utility.

Apple is lead by a bean counter and I am sorry to say this shows through. I wish it didn't.

What other OEMs can't do is make Macs. OS licensing issues aside, they are literally incapable of producing the same hardware in any significant volume at this point in time.

Thousands of comments in the forums, yes. And Apple will still sell several million of these per quarter.

I mean, Luca Maestri does a great job for Apple, but I'm not sure he's really the leader there, or has all that much influence on product direction.

You and your buddy robeddie could probably stand to take a break from the trolling.

 

[Caribbean Mac]

iFixit has completed its teardown of the new 15-inch MacBook Pro with Touch Bar, confirming the notebook is equipped with a non-removable SSD just like the 13-inch MacBook Pro with Touch Bar. Only the entry-level 13-inch model with a standard row of function keys has a removable SSD in Apple's new MacBook Pro lineup.

15-inch MacBook Pro with Touch Bar​

The teardown confirms the processor, RAM, and flash memory are soldered to the logic board, meaning the SSD in particular cannot be removed or upgraded after the fact. If you opt for Apple's standard 256GB or 512GB configurations, for example, you will be unable to upgrade to a larger Apple or third-party SSD at a later time.

Interestingly, however, the teardown finds the new MacBook Pro has a connector that leads to "nowhere," which iFixit speculates could be for Apple to access the soldered-in SSD for data recovery. iFixit suggests there might at least be a chance of recovering data with Apple's help should the logic board experience hardware failure.

Apple's notebooks have become increasingly hard to repair and upgrade as their designs have become thinner and lighter. iFixit gave the new 15-inch MacBook Pro with Touch Bar its lowest "repairability" score of 1 out of 10, noting the Touch Bar is difficult to replace while the entire battery assembly is strongly glued into the case.

The rest of the teardown reveals the 15-inch MacBook Pro with Touch Bar is very similar to the 13-inch model, beyond having a different six-cell battery layout.

Article Link: Teardowns Confirm 13-Inch and 15-Inch Touch Bar MacBook Pros Have Non-Removable SSDs

[doublepost=1479691230][/doublepost]I can understand soldered components but not RAM specially when they limit it to just 16GB an i7 quad core cpu why the user that does graphics be limited to 16 gb instead of being able to go to 64 cheaply?

 

[monstahfish]

Can someone please explain to me (without going on a tear about profits and greed) what the advantages of doing this are, from a design standpoint?

It seems like the end-user is only (and understandably) upset about this.

I, for one, will not purchase another Mac laptop now or in the future, and it's because of things like this. I'm just trying to understand the reasoning behind their decision- the benefits, even. Anything.

From a design standpoint(as a working industrial designer), every time you have a removable component, it requires a housing to keep its components together and a receptacle to mount it to the computer. The removal of say a hard drive housing and a fixture and hardware to hold it in, sheds weight and size while the voltage regulators and control components can all be baked into the pcb of the logic board. As a handy person who replaced my old hard drive with an ssd on my 2009 macbook pro, I am concerned about the inability to remove or upgrade components. I spent 3k on getting a fully specced computer 7 years ago and I'm still using it. I was going to upgrade these came out but now I'm thinking pc because the specs aren't quite there for the 4k video editing I want to start doing.

 

[robeddie]

From a design standpoint(as a working industrial designer), every time you have a removable component, it requires a housing to keep its components together and a receptacle to mount it to the computer. The removal of say a hard drive housing and a fixture and hardware to hold it in, sheds weight and size while the voltage regulators and control components can all be baked into the pcb of the logic board. As a handy person who replaced my old hard drive with an ssd on my 2009 macbook pro, I am concerned about the inability to remove or upgrade components. I spent 3k on getting a fully specced computer 7 years ago and I'm still using it. I was going to upgrade these came out but now I'm thinking pc because the specs aren't quite there for the 4k video editing I want to start doing.

Omg, but all these horrible consequences of having removable ram and hard drives!! The last 35 years of personal computer use has been a nighmare because of all these troubles caused by this. Thank god Apple has finally solved this problem that EVERYBODY was bitching about.
[doublepost=1479696571][/doublepost]

What other OEMs can't do is make Macs. OS licensing issues aside, they are literally incapable of producing the same hardware in any significant volume at this point in time.

Thousands of comments in the forums, yes. And Apple will still sell several million of these per quarter.

I mean, Luca Maestri does a great job for Apple, but I'm not sure he's really the leader there, or has all that much influence on product direction.

You and your buddy robeddie could probably stand to take a break from the trolling.

Moderators: Please note that he is calling us 'trolls' for simply disagreeing with him.
In fact, this seems to be a common tact by him. Someone says something he doesnt like, and he pulls out the 'trolling' card.

 

[dilbert99]

What other OEMs can't do is make Macs. OS licensing issues aside, they are literally incapable of producing the same hardware in any significant volume at this point in time.

Thousands of comments in the forums, yes. And Apple will still sell several million of these per quarter.

I mean, Luca Maestri does a great job for Apple, but I'm not sure he's really the leader there, or has all that much influence on product direction.

You and your buddy robeddie could probably stand to take a break from the trolling.

Trolling. I don't think so. I was a die hard Apple fan who is just a little pissed at the direction they are taking. It is also not helped by people like (might not necessarily be you specifically) saying that I am thinking about it all wrong and my use needs are not important and that I should just get over Apple soldering things in.

I am not going to apologize for how Apple is behaving.
[doublepost=1479712977][/doublepost]

Is that so? Let's make it a bet. You buy a PC, and I'll buy a Mac. You tell me when you replace it, and I'll tell you when I replace it. We divide the cost per month, and compare. Winner buys steaks

I'll warn you though. I have a 2013 MBA 11" i7/8gb,512gb and I expect it to last to at least 2020 easy. Likely longer.

I have a dell from about 2005

Is that so? Let's make it a bet. You buy a PC, and I'll buy a Mac. You tell me when you replace it, and I'll tell you when I replace it. We divide the cost per month, and compare. Winner buys steaks

I'll warn you though. I have a 2013 MBA 11" i7/8gb,512gb and I expect it to last to at least 2020 easy. Likely longer.

Is that so? Let's make it a bet. You buy a PC, and I'll buy a Mac. You tell me when you replace it, and I'll tell you when I replace it. We divide the cost per month, and compare. Winner buys steaks

I'll warn you though. I have a 2013 MBA 11" i7/8gb,512gb and I expect it to last to at least 2020 easy. Likely longer.

Here is my experience so far
Had some early pcs that would last I can't remember 3 years before I upgraded?

I have a dell Inspiron 6400 that I still use in the office for browsing from circa 2005.

Been through a G5 iMac 2007?, a aluminum intel iMac, 2009 mbp, 2012 rMBP which is dead and because of apples policy of only supporting a product for 5 years Would only have another year before I couldn't replace the battery if it was still alive, let's say 4 computers in 10 years. Which is the same upgrade cycle as my pc use. So I'm not seeing a lot of difference between the two over the last 20+ years.

I can also see me replacing macs more often because of everything being soldered in.

Excuse the double text, having issues editing this on my IPhone on train...

Ps what are you going to do about the battery?

 

[fat jez]

I definitely believe Apple is trying to make things as simple as possible for customer service repairs.

Possibly. But there are now 36 logic board combinations (3 CPU, 3 GPU, 4 SSD) that Apple now need to support in stock for repairs. Before it would have been 9!

 

[dannys1]

I never usually worry about resale values of computers and usually pass them down the family (currently have 5 laptops + 1 dead MBP in this house).

Well if you're not worried about resale value, don't worry about how much i'm paying up front. It's all relative.

 

[repoman27]

Trolling. I don't think so. I was a die hard Apple fan who is just a little pissed at the direction they are taking. It is also not helped by people like (might not necessarily be you specifically) saying that I am thinking about it all wrong and my use needs are not important and that I should just get over Apple soldering things in.

I am not going to apologize for how Apple is behaving.

I understand that you were getting hit with some wall of text responses there, but it seemed like you might have given up on refuting other posters' assertions and were simply lashing out. There certainly are different ways of thinking about computers with no user serviceable parts or upgradable memory / storage. As I mentioned earlier, I've eked more years out of my current MBP than I thought possible by replacing nearly everything myself. I just felt that the narrative was becoming quite skewed and wanted to present some arguments to the contrary for the sake of balance.

Apple is a legally defined corporation composed of many individuals, not a single person. As such, it can generally be considered a rational actor bound by certain parameters. Treating it as a living entity with a personality and behavioral traits is a bit of a stretch.

Ps what are you going to do about the battery?

They are rated to last for 1000 charge / discharge cycles, or nearly 3 years of daily cycling. You can have them replaced by Apple for $199 up to 5 years after the last model with that particular battery is discontinued. After that, you do the same thing we did for removable batteries once Apple stopped selling replacements: buy aftermarket from reputable companies like NewerTech.
[doublepost=1479732705][/doublepost]

Possibly. But there are now 36 logic board combinations (3 CPU, 3 GPU, 4 SSD) that Apple now need to support in stock for repairs. Before it would have been 9!

It's just 26, which is still a lot, but not all possible combinations of CPU, GPU and SSD are available as CTOs.

 

[robeddie]

They are rated to last for 1000 charge / discharge cycles, or nearly 3 years of daily cycling. You can have them replaced by Apple for $199 up to 5 years after the last model with that particular battery is discontinued. After that, you do the same thing we did for removable batteries once Apple stopped selling replacements: buy aftermarket from reputable companies like NewerTech.

Whoa, have you seen what a total pain in the --- Apple has made it to remove the current batteries? So self-service options like a NewerTech battery are not for the faint of heart. In the past it was simply opening the bottom case, remove one screw and lift out the battery.

Furthermore, the multiple Apples laptops that I've worked on at my friends office that all needed batteries, many had cycle counts in the 500-600 range. Nowhere near the supposed 1000 cycle counts. I think that much like estimated daily battery life, the estimated cycle count is based on ideal circumstances that rarely exist in the real world.

 

[dilbert99]

I understand that you were getting hit with some wall of text responses there, but it seemed like you might have given up on refuting other posters' assertions and were simply lashing out. There certainly are different ways of thinking about computers with no user serviceable parts or upgradable memory / storage. As I mentioned earlier, I've eked more years out of my current MBP than I thought possible by replacing nearly everything myself. I just felt that the narrative was becoming quite skewed and wanted to present some arguments to the contrary for the sake of balance.

Apple is a legally defined corporation composed of many individuals, not a single person. As such, it can generally be considered a rational actor bound by certain parameters. Treating it as a living entity with a personality and behavioral traits is a bit of a stretch.


They are rated to last for 1000 charge / discharge cycles, or nearly 3 years of daily cycling. You can have them replaced by Apple for $199 up to 5 years after the last model with that particular battery is discontinued. After that, you do the same thing we did for removable batteries once Apple stopped selling replacements: buy aftermarket from reputable companies like NewerTech.
[doublepost=1479732705][/doublepost]
It's just 26, which is still a lot, but not all possible combinations of CPU, GPU and SSD are available as CTOs.

Its just a shame that Apple to me is not the same company any more, I want different things to what they want to provide (RAM, SSD, Battery being serviceable), so switched last week to windows after about 10 years.

I have tried to eke more out of every computer I have had and all of them I have upgraded the memory. One I replaced the wireless card. One (2009 mbp) i replaced the HDD with an SSD, which my wife said didn't make much of a difference, go figure - she complains of a spinning hourglass a lot. I think that has more to do with safari/wifi/ISP issues. The 2012 rMBP (now dead) was a bit harder, I had to max out the memory to 16GB. Until last week I only really needed about 8-10GB and I guess the extra made the machine quicker through memory cache. I felt that machine had a few years left in it apart from the battery. I took the machine to Apple because the battery service was displaying. They tested it and it showed as ok. They did try to quote me $650 or so to get the battery replaces stating one of the assemblies had to be replaced until I pressed him to check that I could actually get the battery replaced for $279 AUD, but didn't bother because the test was showing as OK (Think the battery level was 81% after 630? cycles.
I think that the battery issue with Apple is particularly bad because with the battery being glued in, even if I could get a replacement from a third party (I don't think anyone but apple does the glued in battery sizes), it might be almost impossible to replace. Perhaps owners have to replace the battery just prior to the 5 year limit which is not good.

I am still working out what to do with the 2009 mbp. I might just stick it in the office and use it as a backup station for the numerous ipads and iPhones in the house and replace that with a windows laptop for my wife. That also has battery issues, I could get one out of newer tech like you say which was the only option - Apple told me they no longer have the batteries.

I wish companies could come up with standard cells like they have in the mbp, mine has 5 packs that are very slim and could easily be made a standard thickness but not glued in.

As for computers with no serviceable parts, I get that some want the smallest thinnest laptop out there and compromises need to be made to achieve that. Apple being the only company producing OSX, does need to cater to different audiences that don't want the compromises. They could have the ultra mbp and the mbp, like some of the PC makers have.

Another thing that seems to polarise people is the ports/no ports issue. On that point it appears to me that a lot of people like to make excuses such as USB-C is better, which no doubt it is but why make such polarising decisions such as getting rid of every single port this time around. Again a compromise too much for my liking. I'd have gone with 3 USB-C and One USB-A, that would have allowed people to keep a mouse or thumb drive attached. Was this because of space? Was this because of pushing the industry forward?
[doublepost=1479736473][/doublepost]

Well if you're not worried about resale value, don't worry about how much i'm paying up front. It's all relative.

I'm Scottish and my mother always told me to look after the pence and the pounds will take care of themselves (or something like that)

I'd rather have had the choice to go with 8GB of ram on my last laptop and only upgrade If I actually needed it. I like to be wise with my money and spend it on other things. I feel that Apple charges too much of a premium for memory.

Its made all the worse with the exchange rate here in Australia and with Apple pricing their machines at an unusually high premium this time around it hurts more outside the US. I'm privileged that I have a job that earns me enough to buy any Apple gear I want but damn, I don't feel like parting with that much.

I did Actually fancy Microsofts surface book or studio but they too are asking new mbp money for them.

Another one for me is that I can get great discount on most gear that I buy except for Apple through staff discount schemes, its really tough trying to get discount on Apple gear. I can get it but its really hit and miss.

 

[dannys1]

I'm Scottish and my mother always told me to look after the pence and the pounds will take care of themselves (or something like that)

Haha yeah but I also feel I penny pinch which is why I don't dismiss the resale value and why I don't think it costs me much to own Apple stuff as I just upgrade whilst the last model is still worth a lot (and when I get discount on top, plus VAT back and it gets removed from my business corporation tax, it's all round a winner)

Of course I get the added benefit of using the OS of my choice and the hardware design I prefer too.

If I was a professional artist the only other tech id consider is probably one of the new Surface iMac things, id have it boot directly into my art program and always have it folded flat. I don't like the concept of the Surface Book at all, and the Surface Pro is quite nice, but it reminds me of the iPad with the keyboard stand, which I own and incidentally don't like either. Despite offering that experience with the keyboard stand i'm totally in agreement with Apple that touch works when you hold the device in your hard and keyboard/mouse/trackpad works when the screen is on a hinge in front of you.