Tell Me Why Apple Can't Do This?

Discussion in 'Mac mini' started by Heat_Fan89, May 3, 2019.

  1. Heat_Fan89 macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2016
    #1
    Just to show you how the competition is designing their PC's as user friendly. One screw in the back is all it takes to remove both panels and you have easy access to the entire PC. This is the same 2018 configuration Apple for $999 i3 quad core, 256GB SSD, 8 GB of ram. The ThinkCentre Tiny cost $398.

    1) Side by side Mac Min vs ThinkCentre Tiny Pic #1 Left to right
    2) ThinkCentre Tiny on top of Mac Mini
    3) ThinkCentre top cover removed HDD and CPU fan access
    4) ThinkCentre bottom cover M2 Storage Card and both memory slots
    IMG_20190503_135350.jpg IMG_20190503_135428.jpg IMG_20190503_135523.jpg IMG_20190503_135601.jpg
     
  2. Stephen.R macrumors 6502a

    Stephen.R

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    #2
    I'm not sure how you configured it to get $398. I tried to match as close as possible to an i3/8GB/256GB Mac mini and got to $764, down to $655 after an automatic discount.

    Regardless of that, if you think it works for you, that's great, use it, but Im not sure I understand your "user friendly" comment. The vast majority of people who buy a computer (and particularly as low spec as you've listed there) are never going to open their own computer regardless of how easy it is.
     
  3. Heat_Fan89 thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #3
    User friendly as it's super easy to take apart and replace parts.
     
  4. richpjr macrumors 68030

    richpjr

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    #4
    Apple could make their computers easy to upgrade, but they'd much rather you pay the massive premium they charge for storage and memory and buy from them.
     
  5. SoyCapitanSoyCapitan macrumors 601

    SoyCapitanSoyCapitan

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    #5
    When a device is designed poorly it will be cheap. If you look at how many separate parts that thing is made out of it is going to be hell to recycle, there are many points of failure, and it will likely end up like many devices from the 80s and 90s. Filling up landfills and creating e-waste. We need devices that you can easily pull apart with minimal screws and recycle. Otherwise as humans we are better off not existing if we just create lots of cheap crap that destroys the environment.
     
  6. vertical smile, May 3, 2019
    Last edited: May 3, 2019

    vertical smile macrumors 68040

    vertical smile

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    Sep 23, 2014
    #6
    While I would add that aesthetic would also play a part, I think your comment is most likely the reason.


    I get it, but I personally would pay more just to be able to use the Mac OS over Windows. Actually, I have been paying more for years just so I didn't have to use Windows.
     
  7. velocityg4 macrumors 601

    velocityg4

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    Georgia
    #7
    I think macOS and the Mac software packages are an often overlooked factor in the prices of Macs. Only ten percent of active personal computers are Macs (according to Computerworld). Apple still has to develop OS X. From what I can find MS gets about $50 per license to OEMs. Apple is going to need to get a lot more per Mac to cover R&D and roughly seven years of OS updates. This also covers R&D and free updates for iWork, iMovie, Photos, Garageband, &c. Which are all excellent products included in the price of the Mac. Sure iWork isn't as good as MS Office. But it is free and much better than the free Notepad:rolleyes:.

    Personally, I'd love it if Apple charged $300 for the OS and usual software suite and $100 per yearly upgrade for people who want to DIY a hackintosh. In exchange for better driver support of third party hardware. While official Mac owners get their free updates. Then all the people who don't want Macs. Because they don't meet their requirements can shut up and buy the computer they want. While Apple still makes money. Who am I kidding? People would still gripe about the price.:D
     
  8. Heat_Fan89 thread starter macrumors 6502

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    Feb 23, 2016
    #8
    I have owned quite a few Lenovo products and they all work till this day. I have a 12 yr old ThinkPad that's running Linux, never had a problem besides the battery finally giving out and a $10 replacement fixed that.

    That's a cop-out because if you look closely there are no moving parts besides the CPU fan. Let's address how the 2018 Mac Mini will windup in the garbage can when the T2 controller or SSD storage goes bad and requires a mobo replacement but the end user finds out it's almost the cost of a new Mac Mini.
    --- Post Merged, May 3, 2019 ---
    There's the correct answer why Apple purposely designs the Mac Mini the way they do.
    --- Post Merged, May 3, 2019 ---
    It's no longer 1995, it's time to move on. Windows 10 is just as good as macOS and Linux. All three platforms do the job quite well in today's internet age. It's all about what people prefer, that's all.
     
  9. Duncan68 macrumors regular

    Duncan68

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    Sep 22, 2018
    #9
    Are you on this forum just to get people to switch to Windows? Interesting "hobby".
     
  10. vertical smile macrumors 68040

    vertical smile

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    Sep 23, 2014
    #10
    what does 1995 have to do with it?

    While your statement is very subjective, I will concede that the quality gap between MacOS and Windows has been closing over the past 5ish years, but MacOS is still a better, more intuitive and simple, and more stable OS imo.

    I use Windows 10 just as much as I use MacOS, but i still much rather use my Macs, and I would pay more for a machine just to use MacOS.
    --- Post Merged, May 3, 2019 ---
    I sometime wonder if Apple should allow the Mac Clones again. I know before it wasn't very smart for a hardware company to be licensing their software, but Apple now seems to be positioning themselves as a rising services company, so maybe Mac Clones could happen.
     
  11. velocityg4 macrumors 601

    velocityg4

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    #11
    I could see it. But make it a high end license for the pro/scientific market they've all but abandoned. I could see it as an $800 license on Dell Precision and HP Z workstations.

    They'd get butchered if it was a $200 license on $500 laptops. I only mentioned my pricing for the DIY market. As it is a miniscule subset of enthusiasts. Who often run multiple OSes.
     
  12. Heat_Fan89 thread starter macrumors 6502

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    Feb 23, 2016
    #12
    No and yours is a typical Apple insecure response (Apple is the Best and everyone else Sucks). I created the thread to simply show how a micro computer can be properly designed to be easily repaired so as not to take advantage of a customer where taking it apart can be done easily and by anyone.

    Mac Mini's once upon a time were easy to replace parts and now it's almost impossible. Someone gave the correct answer I was looking for. It's because Apple designed it in such a way to screw over the people who would like to buy a Mac Mini, like me.

    I wanted a 2018 Mac Mini but this time the memory cards are on the opposite side and requires major disassembly. Some have had to pay for the service, others have had success and others have had problems in their DIY endeavors. The T2 security chip which has also cause some it's share of problems is soldered on the board along with the SSD storage. When it fails the Mac Mini is an expensive paper weight unless you are within the warranty or cough, cough, you paid Apple more money and bought Apple Care. There are other good options besides macOS and Apple hardware. Obviously Apple doesn't really care about it's Mac customers and are more concerned with TV shows and iDevices.
    --- Post Merged, May 4, 2019 ---
    They should because Apple has shown they don't give a flip anymore about the Mac. They could make money by selling each version release of macOS for $149 or they could make macOS a yearly license like Microsoft does with Office 365.
     
  13. Stephen.R macrumors 6502a

    Stephen.R

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    Thailand
    #13
    If you already know the answer you want, you aren't really asking a question.

    If they didn't care, why would they release any new Macs?

    Also, you never really responded to this, that I can see:

    If you want to compare things, let's compare. How did you configure the machine to get a price of just $398?
     
  14. MacDawg macrumors Core

    MacDawg

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2004
    Location:
    "Between the Hedges"
    #14
    Your thread title is:
    Tell Me Why Apple Can't Do This?

    The answer is, they obviously can, but they don't
    Maybe the better question would have been, "Tell me why Apple doesn't do this?"
    And any answer to that question on a Forum discussion board is mere speculation

    You may choose to believe the "correct" answer is because Apple wants to screw people, and that's fine, many folks believe that
    But the real answer as to why they make the design choices they do is probably a lot more complicated than that
     
  15. bruinsrme macrumors 603

    bruinsrme

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    Oct 26, 2008
    #15
    Perhaps you and apple have different definitions of user and user friendly.
     
  16. Zdigital2015 macrumors 65816

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    Jul 14, 2015
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    East Coast, United States
    #16
    I am not sure what Mac mini you are referring to, but they have never been easy to replace parts, especially the Intel models

    The current Mac mini (2018) is an absolute dream compared to the Early 2009 Mac mini I have laying around. That was a complete PITA to disassemble. Ditto the Early 2006 at my previous job. The Mid 2011 that’s a I recently put two SSDs into was also a pain to reassemble, disassembly wasn’t as bad as one would think.

    The T2 chip is no different than having the PCH soldered to the motherboard. Your argument in that regard is completely non-sensical. Or are you arguing that the PCH should be a socketed part on the motherboard?

    Apple designed the mini in such a way as normal people who want a compact computer can buy one and not worry about it, since they are not inclined to open it up anyways.

    Apple’s concession to DIYers on the Mac mini was giving us SO-DIMM slots, but decided that removable storage was not the route they wanted to take since they outfitted it with the T2. Even if they did, it’s not like it’s an m.2 slot. It’s proprietary and the replacement market is not full of great alternatives.

    Apple is not going to license macOS as it would NOT be a money maker. In fact, it almost killed the company back in the 1990s. Apple has always made its money in hardware...because of the software. Why would they jeopardize that by selling it separately? So DIYers can build their own box and then plague Apple Support when the cheap Shell Shocker crap they bought doesn’t work correctly? How does that help Apple? How is that even a sound business decision?
     
  17. Heat_Fan89, May 4, 2019
    Last edited: May 4, 2019

    Heat_Fan89 thread starter macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2016
    #17
    It was a rhetorical question I already knew the answer. I just wanted to see how many would admit that Apple is just being Apple in trying to squeeze more lemons out of their customers by purposely designing their computers to get them to spend a lot more.

    If Apple really cared they would do yearly update/refreshes and design their computers so the end user doesn't feel like they are being squeezed for more money, like the ThinkCentre which comes apart by removing 1 screw. Then you have access to the entire PC.

    How did you get a $999 configuration down to $655? You never offered that either besides some promo you had. The same configuration without any promos from Lenovo is still half the price what Apple charges.
    --- Post Merged, May 4, 2019 ---
    User/repair friendly as in easy to take apart and repair. Easy to upgrade without having to pay a lot more. If I want to upgrade the M2 Storage Card, it's an easy upgrade that takes a few minutes. With Apple you either have to purchase and pay more for more storage or you have to buy an external SSD and or accessories.
    --- Post Merged, May 4, 2019 ---
    I not buying that. The T2 Security chip has been known to be flaky, just scan this forum. The soldered SSD is a way to get the buyer to cough up more money at the time of purchase which some have done on this forum. If either the T2 or onboard SSD fails, it's a NEW motherboard. If my M2 Storage card fails it's an easy swap no new motherboard is required.
    --- Post Merged, May 4, 2019 ---
    The 2018 Mini compared to the 2012 and 2014 is a royal pain in the ass to work on. Just scan this forum on DIY'ers who have had issued attempting a memory upgrade. I can easily within a few minutes upgrade my memory and M2 storage card just by removing 1 screw.

    My 2012 Mini had much easier access to the memory slots. How hard would it have been for Apple to design the motherboard so that the memory slots would have been on the bottom just like the 2012 Mini? They chose NOT for financial reasons. The same goes for the soldered SSD storage. Sure soldered SSD will be somewhat faster than an M2 storage card but is it worth it? The ThinkCentre boots Windows 10 within 7 secs. If Apple had used an M2 non-proprietary storage card that was user replaceable would the average 2018 Mac Mini user care if macOS booted in 6 sec or 10 secs? I bet most objective individuals would take the extra few seconds to boot macOS. I sure as hell would but Apple decided against that.

    Here's the issue I have with Apple and their OS. The claims that macOS is just perfectly awesome and that Windows and Linux sucks. And yet I am more impressed with Linux and Windows because they have to work on billions of different configurations around the world and both operating systems do a hell of a job in stability. Apple just has to concentrate on their hardware and that's it. And the rub is, macOS which I have been using 2001 when it was OS X has had it's share of bugs, quirkiness and with some releases, performance issues. So yeah, maybe it's for the best that Apple doesn't code for anything other than it's own hardware. But if they could, I agree with you that they wouldn't because there's NO incentive to pay for a Mac when you can buy a similar configuration for less from another PC maker.
     
  18. brentsg macrumors 68040

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2008
    #18
    If you know the answer and were trying to see who you could fish it from then the whole thread is just bait.

    That PC is pretty ugly though, I’ll give you that. It no doubt one of the reasons since Apple values form factor.
     
  19. Stephen.R, May 4, 2019
    Last edited: May 4, 2019

    Stephen.R macrumors 6502a

    Stephen.R

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    #19
    Have you ever considered that people have other priorities than you, and that Apple caters to those priorities, but not yours?

    For most, they do yearly or just over updates, according to the averages on https://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Mac

    Great - if that's what you want. I'd guess, and Apple probably does too, that most people buying a Mac mini will never open it up

    Please re-read what I wrote. $655 is the discounted price (from $764 via some automatic instant discount) of the Lenovo after trying to spec it to match an i3/8GB/256GB Mac mini. I don't remember the exact options I picked, but I can go back and run through it again to list what options I picked, if you'd care to explain what you picked on the Lenovo to get to your claim of:
    This is what I was trying to get at - I couldn't get 'The same configuration' because they just don't offer the same things, but at the closest I could get it, the Lenovo was $764/$655 before/after discount.
     
  20. D.T. macrumors G3

    D.T.

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    #20
    Yep.

    It's so easy to frame this sort of discussion in a sandbox where it supports the OP's assertion. I mean, it's not unlike this thread: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/macs-are-slower-than-pcs-here’s-why.2179606/

    [Also] A pointless discussion, like performance occurs in a vacuum, without factoring in how effective a tool is at getting the job done. I prefer the *NIX underpinnings, combined with a super convenient service channel, and nice design/features/integration, then add solidly performant virtualization to the mix, a Mac is an outstanding platform.

    I've been in the tech sector for 30+ years, developer, author, I think I'm reasonably qualified to determine a better option - and I'd use it if that were the case.
     
  21. NoBoMac macrumors 68020

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2014
    #21
    Add to this, sure can config a Tiny with i3, 256GB SSD, but, that's a dual core 3GHz processor in the Tiny, lower level GPU vs Mini quad @ 3.7 and better GPU. And need to upgrade Tiny from HDD to SSD. And need to add wifi/Bluetooth radio to get to same networking, that's a $600 Tiny and still not same specs as a "base" Mini.

    Yes, will put a check mark in Tiny plus column for replaceable drive, but as mentioned earlier, most people don't care about that. They get close to 10 years out of the Mini, will be happy.
     
  22. Project Alice macrumors 6502a

    Project Alice

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    Post Falls, ID
    #22
    I have one of these thinkcentres. I love it! I bought it for 80 bucks on ebay. It's only a Pentium dual core, but its socketed and will support up to an i7 quad core. Fully upgrade-able, uses a standard 2.5in sata drive, and two ram slots. Also, it is smaller than the Mac Mini. This thing is cheaper than 2009 and 2010 dualcore mac minis, and you can't stick i7's in those.
    My thinkcentre serves as being a multi-functional server running CentOS 7. Mainly for pihole ad blocking. It is running 24/7 and has not experienced a single hiccup since I've owned it.

    I am seeing quite a few negative\ignorant comments in this thread. Let me give you a bit of backstory on thinkcentres.
    They are part of the branch that lenovo purchased from IBM, like the more commonly known thinkpads. Lenovo "thinkdevices" are the ONLY proprietary piece of computer hardware I would ever buy other than apple.
    They are extremely reliable, and most of them are cheaper depending on the configuration.

    The rest of you can buy your $4000 computer, own it for 5 years and buy a new one. I'll keep upgrading and re-using this thinkcentre (and my two classic Mac Pros for that matter). If you aren't the type of person that will open a computer, you are not the type of person the OP even intended this thread for, see yourselves out.
     
  23. Honumaui macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    #23
    I would say cause apple has moved into the Luxury product market and those people do not work on things themselves as much and many just pay to have whatever done and its about the buying experience as much as the product etc..

    my proof would be look at how big apple is today and that product package lifestyle etc.

    sadly I want them to go back to better machines but I am not holding my breath like many here
     
  24. Stephen.R, May 4, 2019
    Last edited: May 4, 2019

    Stephen.R macrumors 6502a

    Stephen.R

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    #24
    I'm well aware of who Lenovo bought their product line from, and I don't appreciate you suggesting people are "ignorant" because they don't agree with your point of view. Nobody said it isn't a good computer for someone who wants a very low power machine that can be upgraded.

    But the OP specifically compared it to a Mac mini, while leaving out that the Lenovo cannot be configured with the same specs as the Mini. But you're then claiming people who question this are ignorant?

    Compared to the base i3 mini with a 256GB SSD upgrade ($US999 from Apple), I tried to get close with the Lenovo and came up with:

    M720 Tiny:
    • Upgrade to i3-8100T (.5GHz slower core frequency than the Mini's i3-8100B)
    • Upgrade to Windows 10 Pro
    • Upgrade to 4GBx2 (which Lenovo list as DDR4 2666MHz but Intel say the 8100B only supports 2400MHz)
    • Downgrade to "None" SATA Hard Drive
    • Upgrade to 256GB M.2 NVMe SSD
    • Upgrade to Intel Wifi+Bluetooth
    • Downgrade to no Mouse/Keyboard (I forgot to do this last time.. Saved $20!)
    • Upgrade to HDMI port
    • Upgrade to additional USB Type-C port.

    Weirdly, this now shows me a different price to last time - $664.

    But the machine still doesn't have Thunderbolt3, has (as best I can tell - their spec sheet isn't obvious about this on the varying models) only 2 USB-C ports, one of which is only 5Gbps, only 3 of the 5 Type-A ports are 10Gbps (for those playing at home, the 3x Type-A and 1x Type-C 10Gbps ports have so far given us the same bandwidth as one of the TB3 ports on a Mac mini, the other 2x Type-A and 1x TypeC 5Gbps ports give us not quite as much bandwidth as the 2x 10Gbps Type-A ports of the Mac mini, or less than half of a second TB3 port)

    So yet again: if you want to open up your computer and change things, then sure, get this if you like it. It's clearly marketed at a different segment than the Mac mini. Just because other people happen to think the Mini is a better choice, doesn't make their choice or views ignorant.
    --- Post Merged, May 4, 2019 ---
    The only people who largely "work on things" themselves in terms of computers, are enthusiasts and gamers (and there's a lot of crossover there). It's relatively uncommon even for software-focussed "IT People" (i.e. developers, ops, etc) to do much more than maybe upgrade their RAM.

    There's a reason people like myself have and will buy the Mac mini, in spite of it's apparent short comings.

    I would buy a (proper, like the PM/MP of past) modular Mac Pro, and happily upgrade drives, memory etc, but it's a nice to have, it's not a requirement, and it comes at the cost of device size - the PM/MP were big. That style machine also isn't available right now, so it becomes about the current Mac Pro, which is both out of date and engineered around high GPU workload more than anything, or the Mac mini.

    The i7/64GB in my mini will last a while, and no internal storage in a machine this size is going to be "enough" (e.g. the old Mac Pros had 4x drive bays and you could replace the two optical bays with drives too) to not need external storage anyway (so you're using space somewhere either way: all in one big box, or in several smaller boxes)
     
  25. SoyCapitanSoyCapitan, May 5, 2019
    Last edited: May 5, 2019

    SoyCapitanSoyCapitan macrumors 601

    SoyCapitanSoyCapitan

    Joined:
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    #25
    We're not talking about the ThinkPad. It lowers the level of discourse when people can't stick to the precise subject matter, and therefore I can't answer further.

    That's not even a 2018 Mac mini at the top so this whole thread was nonsense to begin with.
     

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