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You now get a choice of marketing cookies being hoisted upon you. Previously, you just sorta had to lay back and take it or find some other solution to block them.

Not-life changing for sure, but an improvement nonetheless.


Emphasis theirs:

To translate the lost time into economic terms, we can assign a monetary value to the hours spent on cookie banners. With an average hourly wage in Europe of €25, the total economic cost can be calculated as 575,000,000 hours × €25/hour = €14.375 billion.

To grasp the scale of the productivity loss, we can consider the number of full-time employees (FTEs) that represent the lost hours. Assuming a full-time worker dedicates approximately 2,000 hours annually, 575,000,000 hours ÷ 2,000 hours/FTE = 287,500 FTEs. This means the overall cost of clicking on cookie banners is equivalent to a company of 287,500 employees spending an 8-hour workday clicking on cookie banners.


And that just is in the EU. As we all know, that “improvement” was exported all over the world. So the actual cost is much, much greater. Not worth it in the slightest, and absolutely not an improvement.
 
If a soccer player fails to score a goal and the coach therefore motivates her to score one, is it correct to say the coach scored it?

I suppose this comes down to exactly what you originally meant by "it" – maybe I took it to mean something more specific than you did.



I attempted to do my diligence about this last night by searching for "let kids be kids" and reading on a few unrelated sites. Generally, the mantra seemed to be associated with the promotion of refraining from educating children, and struck me as driven by the personalities of the adults wielding it. Some of that conviction seems rooted in their own feelings about what they see as inherent qualities of childhood, which I understand. But to me, a philosophy predominantly against educating children – particularly when they're genuinely curious and seeking knowledge, or are habitually in situations where they could really benefit from it – indeed seems like a serious problem.



I think I've been clear that my position is that parental controls should be used as deemed appropriate by parents, hopefully in collaboration with their families – not that no one should do anything.

But the benefits of rejecting these laws specifically?

I mean… would you prefer, for example, to have uploaded your ID to MacRumors – or the unknown third-party company of their choice, not necessarily known to you – just so we could be conversing here today?
Too granular; the coach is responsible for training the player to be fit to play, otherwise the coach makes a decision that the player is unit to be a player.

'Let kids be kids'; OK this one seems to be oddly overthought, and perhaps I have not considered that others have different perspectives on that saying, however, to be clear, my intent is definitely not to refrain from educating them, it is to educate, support, protect, nurture, love and care for them. Letting kids be kids means allowing them to enjoy their youth, soaking up and exploring the world. Falling off bikes, throwing rocks at each other, climbing trees, floating down rivers, etc., etc..

Also, to be clear, I support guard rails that the help keep sinister entities away from kids. So if this website were one that I wanted to use, and it required me providing my ID in order to satisfy the site that I am a consenting adult, then yes I support that.

Of course there is always another option, which is that a service is denied completely where verification is not conducted. I feel that there will be a greater penetration of verification or identification in the digital realm over the coming years, not dissimilar to those in the real world.

We may in fact be on the same team here, largely. Regardless, Merry Christmas!
 
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Thank you; that's a very thoughtful elaboration. It feels a little before my time, but much of that picture feels familiar to me from living here.

However, BoeingFan (seemingly sharing the spirit of others I'd found online) seemed to be invoking "let kids be kids" in defence of the restrictive social media laws.

Contrastingly, wouldn't the spirit of "let kids be kids," as you've described it here, be consistent with opposing restrictive social media laws?
I hope I've clarified my perspective to show that I feel that there are benefits to denying kids access to social media and that there is such a word as no. If you're supportive of kids having free will access to the toxic mess that is social media, then let's agree to disagree.
 
'Let kids be kids' basically translates to 'Back off and let them 'breathe' and enjoy being a kid; they'll be stuck in the 'rat race' plenty long enough as adults. Not a call to neglect or not instructing them.
Spot on. Thank you for putting it into words where I failed miserably 😁
 
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Emphasis theirs:

To translate the lost time into economic terms, we can assign a monetary value to the hours spent on cookie banners. With an average hourly wage in Europe of €25, the total economic cost can be calculated as 575,000,000 hours × €25/hour = €14.375 billion.

To grasp the scale of the productivity loss, we can consider the number of full-time employees (FTEs) that represent the lost hours. Assuming a full-time worker dedicates approximately 2,000 hours annually, 575,000,000 hours ÷ 2,000 hours/FTE = 287,500 FTEs. This means the overall cost of clicking on cookie banners is equivalent to a company of 287,500 employees spending an 8-hour workday clicking on cookie banners.


And that just is in the EU. As we all know, that “improvement” was exported all over the world. So the actual cost is much, much greater. Not worth it in the slightest, and absolutely not an improvement.

I'm going to chalk this up to the American way - we have this fascination with measuring everything in money units.

It's a pop up asking consent for tracking it ain't that deep. I don't believe you'd genuinely prefer not having a choice. Would you?
 
I'm going to chalk this up to the American way - we have this fascination with measuring everything in money units.

It's a pop up asking consent for tracking it ain't that deep. I don't believe you'd genuinely prefer not having a choice. Would you?
I agree with that, I would definitely like the choice. That said, aren't some parts of the EU getting crabby about Apple's App Tracking Transparency? Seems a little strange that they would want less privacy...
 
I agree with that, I would definitely like the choice. That said, aren't some parts of the EU getting crabby about Apple's App Tracking Transparency? Seems a little strange that they would want less privacy...

The grievance here appears to be about the UX of having an ATT popup before a GDPR popup. In a perfect world, an app just wouldn't track you and give zero popups - but we don't live in that world.

A clean and neat solution for this would be something like a "GDPR API" that unifies both pop-ups. This would just be better UX.
 
The grievance here appears to be about the UX of having an ATT popup before a GDPR popup. In a perfect world, an app just wouldn't track you and give zero popups - but we don't live in that world.

A clean and neat solution for this would be something like a "GDPR API" that unifies both pop-ups. This would just be better UX.
I don't think that was it, I think it was the magazine and app industry was pouting at them. I could be wrong.
 
As a parent this is a great law! Kudos to Texas for passing this and its unfortunate the federal government is holding it up. By enforcing age on the app store level (or device, when I setup my device for my child), I can ensure my child will only get approved experiences.

Apple has parental controls that ensure your child will only have experiences you approve. How about you step up to the plate. Take care of your parental responsibilities instead of asking the government to cover for you. If you aren't responsible enough to raise your child properly, please don't reproduce.
 
Apple has parental controls that ensure your child will only have experiences you approve. How about you step up to the plate. Take care of your parental responsibilities instead of asking the government to cover for you. If you aren't responsible enough to raise your child properly, please don't reproduce.
This is a reasonable take that many of a libertarian bent will take. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing at this point, just pointing out some logistic issues.

1.) Parental controls are often not as intuitive and easy to learn and skillfully use as we might prefer, and I suspect the majority of homes in America have parents who are on average not as technically astute as the mainstream Mac Rumors user base. I remember learning how to use 'Screen Time' to shut of our kid's iPhone remotely as a disciplinary measure; I got it done, but it was a bit confusing at first.

2.) Even what parental controls to use isn't always clear. Apple has some, your home router may have some (possibly requiring subscription services), there are 3rd party programs, etc.

3.) Some homes have mixed ecosystem environments - so the parent has a Mac, the kid has a Windows PC because that's more in line with school, the parents have iPhones but the kid has an Android phone, etc.

And I wonder how many kids have their own computer, and how many family computers have different user accounts and privilege sets for each family member, vs. being a 'sit down and go' free-for-all?

4.) I get your point that if you don't bother to 'adequately protect' (a nebulous, loaded term but let's let that go for now) your kid you ought not to have a legit gripe with the government, but it's not just the parents who have an interest in protecting the wellbeing of the child, but the government (that's why we have Child Protective Services, etc.).

5.) Many people you'd find lacking do reproduce and don't lose custody of their kids, so this is the world we have to deal with, parents as they are rather than as they should be.

6.) American culture is litigious and accustomed to sort of 'living in a bubble' - mostly urban and suburban, we've wiped out most large predators that preyed on us, consumer protection laws, the Drug Enforcement Agency, government-mandated meat inspection, chlorinated water delivery, seat belt laws, helmet laws, etc. And a people accustomed to living in a civilized bubble often get inflated (maybe unrealistic) ideas about how 'safe' that bubble ought to be.

7.) There is a concern as to what extensive online porn exposure may do to the developing psychological maturation of youngsters. Just what the particulars are is likely debatable, but the idea teen boys spending a lot of time for years masturbating to porn sites might have deleterious effects and be an actionable threat is not unreasonable.

Of course, what about the threats we let alone in the name of freedom/liberty? McDonalds, KFC, pizza delivery, all those fried chicken tenders and French fries, etc.? Obesity, diabetes and high cholesterol and triglyceride levels are threats, too, but don't get between me and a McDonald's Quarter Pounder!

I'm not saying any of this means you're wrong. None of it makes me want to be required to have a detailed personal data file with the government and use facial recognition every time I want to use the Internet. While that's not what Texas tried to demand, many are concerned it's a step in that direction.

And all of this just makes access inconvenient, not impossible.
 
The Texas App Store Accountability Act (SB2420) requires Apple and other app marketplaces to confirm user age when a person creates an Apple Account. Apple Accounts for users under 18 would need to join a Family Sharing group, with new controls available for parents and restrictions for minors.
Apologies if this has been covered. Long thread. So, what if, instead of trying to download an app. from the Apple App. Store or use Safari on an iPhone or iPad, the kid decides to use a regular Internet browser on his Mac or Windows PC to go after porn or whatever they're out to restrict access to. Does the law do anything to restrict browsers on computers that didn't use an app. store to get them?

In the Apple ecosystem, it's easy to get used to the unconscious assumption software comes from app. stores, but that's far from a universal fact.
 
the constitution again
For order our society depends upon a covenant agreement defining the rights of individuals and responsibilities, powers and limitations of government, and that this government be collectively agreed upon with consent to be governed under. In a nation with around 330 million very diverse people spread over an area larger than Western Europe, founded amidst rebellion from claimed unjust government without representation, the Constitution is ours. While the political Right and Left argue vehemently over interpretation of some points, we generally agree to be bound under this covenant in at least a loose way (subject to self- and cause-serving rationalizations, of course). It's foundational to American society, a society chronically said to be in a state of 'culture war.'

My point is, yes, you'll hear the Constitution cited often in American politics, because that covenant is a major part of the glue that holds us together. Without it, we're reduced to a 'might makes right' face off.
 
I've never understood why Americans trust companies more than the government. A companies only purpose is to take as much money from you as it possibly can. The government actually needs to improve your life if they want to be re-elected.
What an insane take. There isn’t a single government in the world that cares about their citizens
 
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As a parent this is a great law! Kudos to Texas for passing this and its unfortunate the federal government is holding it up. By enforcing age on the app store level (or device, when I setup my device for my child), I can ensure my child will only get approved experiences.
Yup the way of Texass (and affiliate states)... "states and individual rights" until they don't like it... then use the full force of the state to oppress them... constitution be damned.
 
Too granular; the coach is responsible for training the player to be fit to play, otherwise the coach makes a decision that the player is unit to be a player.

I'll take it as more of a vague notion – I at least get the mood from it.

'Let kids be kids'; … to be clear, my intent is definitely not to refrain from educating them, it is to educate, support, protect, nurture, love and care for them. Letting kids be kids means allowing them to enjoy their youth, soaking up and exploring the world…

Thank you; that makes much clearer what you mean by that.

As I mentioned to drrich2, though: the implication of wanting to educate kids while letting them enjoy their youth and explore the world would seem, as far as I can see, to comport with opposing restrictions to using social networks. To this point, I've detected what I consider sincere conviction from you, but I haven't noted any acknowledgement that using the Internet is now a valuable component of intellectual and social development for teens today, a way to gain applicable practical and career experience, and a powerful form of exploring and learning about the world.

You've cited "falling off bikes," "throwing rocks at each other," "climbing trees." There are joys and lessons there too, but each carries obvious risk of physical injury, let alone well-established risk of encounters with "sinister entities" in person. What happens to your intent with respect to "protection," "care" and "love" there? Why aren't you, with twice the haste, speaking out in favour of in-person ID checks for all children and adults before being allowed to explore the neighbourhood?

Using social networks, meanwhile, carries no risk of physical injury. The most effective defence against "sinister entities" online is a rather brief and enjoyable course on forms of online abuse, impersonation, and methods used by bad actors. And, as I alluded to Octavius8 earlier: those not allowed to use social networks are delayed in learning by doing. Those learning without doing are presumably less likely to mentally rehearse applying what they're learning. So, what happens here to your intent to "educate"?

I can only think what I thought earlier: since your reasoning doesn't really map to your conclusion, I imagine it comes down to a personality thing. The world contains all manner of exploration and risks, and you're willing to state publicly that you support everyone being restricted only with respect to those you haven't come to value personally, and not with respect to those you have come to value personally. Subjective but sincere feelings like yours, I believe, make for a respectable set of rules or guidelines within a family, but are practically the definition of what's inappropriate for law. That's why I strongly support the parental controls already in place, but not laws restricting use of the Internet to talk with each other.

Of course there is always another option, which is that a service is denied completely where verification is not conducted.

How is that another option? Isn't that the whole idea on the table?

All in all, I don't get the impression we're largely on the same team here. I do thank you for the continued input; I'm benefitting from the ability to understand a little better the thinking behind some people favouring this stuff. (Please feel free to keep correcting anything.)
 
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This is great in a perfect world where everyone has parents that give a hoot. Sadly, the reality is that not everyone has those parents, and, additional stop gaps are required to allow to kids be kids, not adults in young bodies.
Anyone that thinks these “required” stop gaps will stop kids are simply not experienced with kids.
 
Apple has parental controls that ensure your child will only have experiences you approve. How about you step up to the plate. Take care of your parental responsibilities instead of asking the government to cover for you. If you aren't responsible enough to raise your child properly, please don't reproduce.
I do wonder how someone’s fine with taking all the steps required to acquire, receive and set up a device for a child (appleID and all) and THEN decide that the one more step of parental control is just a step too far. :) “I don’t want my kid to bug me every time they need access to something, I’d rather just not have any controls because I’ve got my OWN life to live.”
 
Anyone that thinks these “required” stop gaps will stop kids are simply not experienced with kids.
Oh, it won't stop them all! And even if your kid's devices are on a lock down level that'd impress a cyber security expert, all it takes is one sleep-over at the home of a buddy with no restrictions and some tech. savvy (e.g.: using a VPN and lies about age) to bypass your protocols.

I think there are 2 factors in play in response to that.

1.) Just as home security systems (from locking your doors up to professional alarm systems, guard dogs, etc.) don't prevent all burglaries, but do prevent some, the idea is mitigation, to cut the magnitude of the problem.

2.) And that partial mitigation will probably be more effective toward the younger end of the target demographic, since people tend to gain technical sophistication and prowess with age.

The dedicated, determined and bright will eventually find their way in, but the less-motivated and lazy will be shut out in droves.
 
A clean and neat solution for this would be something like a "GDPR API" that unifies both pop-ups. This would just be better UX.
That would require the EU have some tech companies/individuals that could aid them in crafting a sound UX. As it is, they’re going to use the same group of ad loaded interests to ensure that no EU citizen can effectively opt out of every site first, then opt-in on a case by case basis.
 
That would require the EU have some tech companies/individuals that could aid them in crafting a sound UX. As it is, they’re going to use the same group of ad loaded interests to ensure that no EU citizen can effectively opt out of every site first, then opt-in on a case by case basis.

Your logic makes no sense. Why would the EU design the UX for this? Apple is the one building it. EU just says "it needs to do x and not y"
 
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1.) Just as home security systems (from locking your doors up to professional alarm systems, guard dogs, etc.) don't prevent all burglaries, but do prevent some, the idea is mitigation, to cut the magnitude of the problem.
Big difference is that one person putting a security system on their house does not affect in ANY way the other houses. So, the magnitude is cut to those who want the magnitude cut. Like the current system where parents who care have the tools to restrict the access to content they’d rather their kids not have access to. And, it’d be more effective on a case by case basis as there would be a human for added moderation.

2.) And that partial mitigation will probably be more effective toward the younger end of the target demographic, since people tend to gain technical sophistication and prowess with age.
Yeah, but it would currently be effective only for children that can’t read well enough to sign up for the services. By the time kids can read, they’re far better with anything tech than the folks that should be watching them. If that person hasn’t put in place BASIC measures ON device, defeating off device systems will be simple by every kid that wants to defeat them. This would only be effective for children that aren’t looking for that stuff, but, for those that aren’t looking, nothing additional is required to prevent them from looking. :)
 
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