Texas teens' case tests fetus protection statute

wdlove

macrumors P6
Original poster
Oct 20, 2002
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Things just don't seem to be getting any better on the parenting front. :mad:

For the twins. :( Another time when we need a cry emoticon.

The would-be teen mother arrived by ambulance last May, her belly bruised, the twin fetuses she had carried for five months gone, and her lips tightly sealed.

Authorities assumed 16-year-old Erica Basoria had been beaten and charged her boyfriend, 18-year-old Gerardo Flores, with murder under the state's new law protecting the unborn.

-But it was not that simple. Basoria told authorities that she had been trying to kill the fetuses for weeks and finally asked Flores to help by stepping on her stomach.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/03/05/texas_teens_case_tests_fetus_protection_statute/
 

Blue Velvet

Moderator emeritus
Jul 4, 2004
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This will probably get shifted to the Political Forum.

Outlaw abortion and this is what you'll get -- women taking things messily into their own hands and making desperate decisions as they have been forced to do for centuries.
 

wdlove

macrumors P6
Original poster
Oct 20, 2002
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Blue Velvet said:
This will probably get shifted to the Political Forum.

Outlaw abortion and this is what you'll get -- women taking things messily into their own hands and making desperate decisions as they have been forced to do for centuries.
May I ask why you keep thinking my threads should be moved to the political forum. I don't see this as being an abortion issue, its legal. End of Story. :(

The issue here is what these two teenagers have done to innocent life. There are so many other options.
 

Blue Velvet

Moderator emeritus
Jul 4, 2004
21,652
123
wdlove said:
May I ask why you keep thinking my threads should be moved to the political forum. I don't see this as being an abortion issue, its legal. End of Story. :(

The issue here is what these two teenagers have done to innocent life. There are so many other options.
wdlove, I don't keep thinking all your threads should be moved to the political forum but you and I both know that the issues surrounding reproductive rights are so contentious, and so politically-charged in the U.S. that threads like this have the capacity to rapidly evolve into politically-framed arguments.

What is more to the point, is what climate of thinking and what circumstances lead to this couple making such a poor decision regarding her pregnancy.
 

stubeeef

macrumors 68030
Aug 10, 2004
2,702
2
this is the state of affairs in a country with a moral decline, where education is second to TV, this has zero to do with abortion, it is legal, didn't matter here. there are families ready to adopt, didn't happen here.

Violence on TV and in films, lack of personal responsiblity, and declining education are a lethal soup of tears.

How that is political I have no clue. You can not legislate morality,
 

Blue Velvet

Moderator emeritus
Jul 4, 2004
21,652
123
stubeeef said:
this is the state of affairs in a country with a moral decline, where education is second to TV, this has zero to do with abortion, it is legal, didn't matter here. there are families ready to adopt, didn't happen here.

Violence on TV and in films, lack of personal responsiblity, and declining education are a lethal soup of tears.

How that is political I have no clue. You can not legislate morality,
People have been moaning about the supposed moral decline of their respective societies for millennia... if you cannot legislate morality then why do so many legislatures try to?
 

stubeeef

macrumors 68030
Aug 10, 2004
2,702
2
yes they have. And as a parent of 3 little girls, I have put parental controls on the disney channel of all channels. The violence and "teen" angst had my 8 yr old immitating it by the ending credits.

I use bumper car to filter their internet, parental controls on the TV and monitor which friends they spend time with. Why? Because it is my duty and responsibility! It will not gaurentee great kids/adults just help prevent some future crap. But right now pubescent teens think that oral sex is not sex? Some are having anal sex at these ages so they can remain virgins. It is nearly out of control. They are unable to cope with the decsions they are making. Absentee parenting doesn't help.
 

wdlove

macrumors P6
Original poster
Oct 20, 2002
16,570
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Blue Velvet said:
wdlove, I don't keep thinking all your threads should be moved to the political forum but you and I both know that the issues surrounding reproductive rights are so contentious, and so politically-charged in the U.S. that threads like this have the capacity to rapidly evolve into politically-framed arguments.

What is more to the point, is what climate of thinking and what circumstances lead to this couple making such a poor decision regarding her pregnancy.
I'm sorry Blue Velvet, I probably overacted. It just hurt when I saw a chance of thread going to the political forum for a second time. :eek:

My first reaction to the story was about parenting and the moral values in our society. Morals can't really be legislated. They are a thing that has to come from within, first taught by a parent. I know that my moral compass works very well, that my parents gave me.
 

rainman::|:|

macrumors 603
Feb 2, 2002
5,438
2
iowa
stubeeef said:
yes they have. And as a parent of 3 little girls, I have put parental controls on the disney channel of all channels. The violence and "teen" angst had my 8 yr old immitating it by the ending credits.

I use bumper car to filter their internet, parental controls on the TV and monitor which friends they spend time with. Why? Because it is my duty and responsibility! It will not gaurentee great kids/adults just help prevent some future crap. But right now pubescent teens think that oral sex is not sex? Some are having anal sex at these ages so they can remain virgins. It is nearly out of control. They are unable to cope with the decsions they are making. Absentee parenting doesn't help.
And you honestly think your daughters won't go sleep around, party, do drugs, whatever if they want to? They're independent people, you may wind up having to face that at some point in your parenting. Just a tip. And if they do these things, maybe they'll become artists or politicians and rise above the status-quo mediocrity that haunts so many people at middle-age. Or will you parent your children to avoid that pitfall too? More to the point, how does nature vs. nurture have anything to do with this? Must we resort to blaming her parents? I just don't get how your post has any point, forgive me. If you're incinuating that her age is shocking here, keep in mind that for most of recorded history this kind of thing happened to 12-year olds. Today that's seen as a scandal, meaning our morals have actually become more stringent. And for most of recorded history, people have been using dozens of methods to induce miscarriage, there's no way to know but in America that might even happen less today than in the past... as our standard of living becomes better, people aren't forced into abortion because they can't afford food. What's sad here is that this girl either couldn't afford an abortion or was too scared (OK, maybe too stupid, I don't know and I'm not going to defend her), so she did something that endangered her own life and the freedom of her boyfriend.
 

stubeeef

macrumors 68030
Aug 10, 2004
2,702
2
paulwhannel said:
And you honestly think your daughters won't go sleep around, party, do drugs, whatever if they want to? They're independent people, you may wind up having to face that at some point in your parenting. Just a tip. And if they do these things, maybe they'll become artists or politicians and rise above the status-quo mediocrity that haunts so many people at middle-age. Or will you parent your children to avoid that pitfall too? More to the point, how does nature vs. nurture have anything to do with this? Must we resort to blaming her parents? I just don't get how your post has any point, forgive me. If you're incinuating that her age is shocking here, keep in mind that for most of recorded history this kind of thing happened to 12-year olds. Today that's seen as a scandal, meaning our morals have actually become more stringent. And for most of recorded history, people have been using dozens of methods to induce miscarriage, there's no way to know but in America that might even happen less today than in the past... as our standard of living becomes better, people aren't forced into abortion because they can't afford food. What's sad here is that this girl either couldn't afford an abortion or was too scared (OK, maybe too stupid, I don't know and I'm not going to defend her), so she did something that endangered her own life and the freedom of her boyfriend.

let me start with..........
stubeeef said:
It will not gaurentee great kids/adults just help prevent some future crap.
paulwhannel said:
If you're incinuating that her age is shocking here,
Yes I think in this day and time it is a bit sad, if not shocking. Other things were shocking in those old days, like treating your elders with disrespect, but alass this is the here and now.

paulwhannel said:
Must we resort to blaming her parents?
While I can see where that insinuation may be there, I don't necessarily blame her parents. I wonder about her parents involvement, but have no clue. I mention the things that I do with my kids, in hopes that they will help my children. The only other option (not involved) is unacceptable to me.

May I ask how you are raising your children? I constantly find myself at odds with MYSELF about what I am doing and how I am doing it with my children. I constantly worry that they may not have a good role model. I grew up without a father for the most part, so am off in lala land here.

In what ways are you involved with impresionable kids? I tried to work with some at our youth group, but found that wasn't my best fit, mostly because I had no exerience with that type of relationship (adult-youth) at the time (before I had kids).

I don't have the answers, and will be surprised if anyone here does, but less involvement can't be among the serious options. Abortion is a legal option, as well as adoption, the issue here is the blatant disregard for life, the infants as well as her own. Having unresponsible sex is an awful thing for children. What kids are expected to assimilate from TV is unbelievable, my kids constantly ask if something is real. They just can't grasp it sometimes, and my oldest is in an accelerated program for gifted kids.

Sorry if I came off holyer than thou, but an hour of cruising the tube can just baffle the mess out of me, and what we are exposing our young generations minds with.
 

Les Kern

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2002
3,063
76
Alabama
Blue Velvet said:
People have been moaning about the supposed moral decline of their respective societies for millennia... if you cannot legislate morality then why do so many legislatures try to?
Actually you can legislate morals. It's been tried before. Remember the Dark Ages?
Don't let the fundamentalist nut-cases guide you. I'm almost 50, and there are NO declines in morals over the course of my life. Folks just talk openly about it now. Do you think they JUST invented oral sex? It was my freakin' hobby in 1970.
Jeesh.
 

stubeeef

macrumors 68030
Aug 10, 2004
2,702
2
Les Kern said:
Actually you can legislate morals. It's been tried before. Remember the Dark Ages?
Don't let the fundamentalist nut-cases guide you. I'm almost 50, and there are NO declines in morals over the course of my life. Folks just talk openly about it now. Do you think they JUST invented oral sex? It was my freakin' hobby in 1970.
Jeesh.
Was it considered sex then?
 

CorvusCamenarum

macrumors 65816
Dec 16, 2004
1,231
1
Birmingham, AL
Blue Velvet said:
This will probably get shifted to the Political Forum.

Outlaw abortion and this is what you'll get -- women taking things messily into their own hands and making desperate decisions as they have been forced to do for centuries.
Yes, but there is a very simple solution to this - if you don't want to get pregnant, don't have sex. It doesn't cost anything and works 100% of the time. Granted, I know that this outdated and antiquated line of reasoning flies in the face of the more modern, "enlightened" mode of thought where there is no such thing as a potentially adverse consequence, but I'm pretty sure it works just the same.


This hasn't been touched on yet, but I find it very disturbing that the boyfriend can be prosecuted while the girl gets a free pass on the grounds of "it's her pregnancy to terminate."
 

miloblithe

macrumors 68020
Nov 14, 2003
2,076
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Washington, DC
It would be nice if rather than taking staunch sides on these issues if people could come together and openly discuss real life. A realize this is flowers and puppy dogs, but a more open, supportive society could have helped these kids make some far better decisions.
 

rainman::|:|

macrumors 603
Feb 2, 2002
5,438
2
iowa
stubeeef said:
let me start with..........



Yes I think in this day and time it is a bit sad, if not shocking. Other things were shocking in those old days, like treating your elders with disrespect, but alass this is the here and now.


While I can see where that insinuation may be there, I don't necessarily blame her parents. I wonder about her parents involvement, but have no clue. I mention the things that I do with my kids, in hopes that they will help my children. The only other option (not involved) is unacceptable to me.

May I ask how you are raising your children? I constantly find myself at odds with MYSELF about what I am doing and how I am doing it with my children. I constantly worry that they may not have a good role model. I grew up without a father for the most part, so am off in lala land here.

In what ways are you involved with impresionable kids? I tried to work with some at our youth group, but found that wasn't my best fit, mostly because I had no exerience with that type of relationship (adult-youth) at the time (before I had kids).

I don't have the answers, and will be surprised if anyone here does, but less involvement can't be among the serious options. Abortion is a legal option, as well as adoption, the issue here is the blatant disregard for life, the infants as well as her own. Having unresponsible sex is an awful thing for children. What kids are expected to assimilate from TV is unbelievable, my kids constantly ask if something is real. They just can't grasp it sometimes, and my oldest is in an accelerated program for gifted kids.

Sorry if I came off holyer than thou, but an hour of cruising the tube can just baffle the mess out of me, and what we are exposing our young generations minds with.
And I'm sorry if I impeached your parenting skills, I know it's a hard job and respect that. I had a lot of parenting responsibilities with my siblings and I've worked with children in several situations, and I have learned enough about them to never have any of my own ;) My point is simply that this kind of behavior (the self-abortion) is on the way out, not in... Hundreds or thousands of years ago people peddled syrums and drugs and procedures that would terminate pregnancy, not to mention countless ways to do it yourself. Today abortion is mostly seen as a you-go-to-the-doctor procedure, and we can see the public outrage when it's self-induced as in this case. While we can learn from this case and perhaps tweak the way abortion is made available to younger people, i hardly consider it an indictment against society. As for violence/sex on TV and internet, yes it's true that it's available to children in epic proportions, but it's never been hidden from children-- Again, hundreds or thousands of years ago children witnessed both on a daily basis from the time of infancy. Today we're continuing ways to shelter them from that. My concern is that parents have these powerful filtering tools but not the restraint to turn them off as the kids grow up... A 10-year old probably does know about sex just as a 10-year old did 100 years ago. Why not give them the chance to learn more about it than the sexist, caricaturized version that they get from their friends? These are often the same people campaigning against sex-ed classes being offered to younger students. If you don't want them to learn about sex, how can you blame them when they wield it like a clumsy sledgehammer? Again, I'm not criticizing you here, I'm just saying where I'm coming from...
 

jsw

Moderator emeritus
Mar 16, 2004
22,819
39
Andover, MA
Two comments:

(1) As the father of a four and a half year old daughter and, in June, the father of a second daughter, I certainly understand some of the dilemmas and issues involved in raising kids and, more to the point, understand that I don't understand it all and that it's only going to get vastly more complicated. However, coming from a background with extraordinarily overprotective parents, I tend to believe that it is far better too let your kids see what's going on around them with you there to guide them than it is to shield them from it all. Why? Two reasons: (a) they will grow up and leave the house someday - if you protect them too much when young, you are not preparing them for what's coming; and (b) you isolate them socially if you remove their ability to blend in with their peers by sharing what they've watched, heard, etc. My parents literally changed the channel whenever people did anything even vaguely sexual or violent on screen. As a result, I not only am incredibly uncomfortable discussing anything with them - they seemed to think it was wrong to show or discuss anything vaguely controversial - but I spent years unable to share in conversations at school because I wasn't up on anything. I didn't even get a stereo until sophomore year in high school, and use of that was somewhat restricted. I remember being asked freshman year what my favorite radio station was. I couldn't even name one. I felt isolated from my peers (also due to never being allowed out, really, so there wasn't anything like being grounded for me, as there wasn't anything to remove). If you overprotect kids, you hurt them. I think I understand why my parents did it. My older brother died during surgery at the age of two (I was one). A younger brother almost died during surgeries of his own. So they wanted to keep us safe. However, my point is that there is a fine line between shielding your kids and overprotecting them, and it's a tough line to determine as a parent. Still, I'd rather give my kids the chance to see what their peers are seeing than shield them from it. Just my opinion, and it doesn't mean my 4 year old watches porn or prison movies, just that I don't want her to be isolated from the culture her peers experience, which isn't much now but will be extensive in only a few years.

(2) I think the restrictions on abortion are yet another instance of this society thinking that it can mandate morality. Kids will have sex. They will have unprotected sex. You might be able to make it more or less likely that they will, but you cannot prevent it. I didn't have sex of any sort as a kid, and I suppose my parents did prevent that by making me a social outcast... but, generally, it's not preventable. To take these kids who have had sex and gotten pregnant and demonize them or force them to such extremes infuriates me to no end. Adoption is great if the kids want to go through with having a child. I don't ever want my daughters to have abortions. Ever. But... if they feel forced to go to some back alley or to try to kill the fetuses themselves, I'd rather they had professional help than that they bleed out in some back room or end up in jail. Laws to "protect the fetus" infuriate me. They legislate morality and, worse, decide that it is better to force a woman to have a child she doesn't want. Crime rates went down when abortion rates rose. Why? More unwanted kids weren't born. Not rocket science there.
 

MacNut

macrumors Core
Jan 4, 2002
21,542
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CT
Think of it this way, If our parents had an abortion than we wouldn't be having this conversation because we wouldn't exist. :rolleyes:
 

miloblithe

macrumors 68020
Nov 14, 2003
2,076
28
Washington, DC
MacNut said:
Think of it this way, If our parents had an abortion than we wouldn't be having this conversation because we wouldn't exist. :rolleyes:
Just think, if our fathers had "thought about baseball" and held out a few seconds longer, we wouldn't exist and someone else would exist in our place!

If Bruce Banner hadn't been exposed to radiation, there'd be no Incredible Hulk!

If George Bush had OD'ed on coke, he wouldn't be President!

My god! If the past had occureded differently, the present wouldn't be the same!
 

MacFan26

macrumors 65816
Jan 8, 2003
1,219
1
San Francisco, California
Gotta love this quote: ''We didn't consider a case as ridiculous as this," said Representative Ray Allen, a Republican. ''I feel sad for these immature, stupid people. But the law is what the law is."

I think the only immature, stupid people we're dealing are our own lawmakers. After all, they have a significant influence on why we're keeping the public "stupid."
 

madoka

macrumors 6502
Jul 17, 2002
484
104
Blue Velvet said:
Outlaw abortion and this is what you'll get -- women taking things messily into their own hands and making desperate decisions as they have been forced to do for centuries.
Funny, abortion isn't outlawed, yet this still happened. Way to push your pro-abortion agenda.
 

acedickson

macrumors 6502a
Dec 6, 2004
727
0
ATL
stubeeef said:
yes they have. And as a parent of 3 little girls, I have put parental controls on the disney channel of all channels. The violence and "teen" angst had my 8 yr old immitating it by the ending credits.

I use bumper car to filter their internet, parental controls on the TV and monitor which friends they spend time with. Why? Because it is my duty and responsibility! It will not gaurentee great kids/adults just help prevent some future crap. But right now pubescent teens think that oral sex is not sex? Some are having anal sex at these ages so they can remain virgins. It is nearly out of control. They are unable to cope with the decsions they are making. Absentee parenting doesn't help.
How old are your girls now? Doing all of that to "protect" or shield them doesn't mean they'll turn out great or not. If they go to school, pblic or private, they'll be exposed to much more than TV or the net. When they rebel it'll probably be against those exact things you shield them from. I'm 21 with 3 kids and I don't think any of the choices I made had anything to do with my upbringing.

I have several friends that are in the same situation. Some were "shielded", some were in between, and some hadno parental involment in what the watch, where they surf, or who they hangout with. We're all in the same boat and all from different upbringings.

That said I hope it works out and they grow up to be great people as adults. Hopefully, they'll only minimally rebel.
 

Blue Velvet

Moderator emeritus
Jul 4, 2004
21,652
123
madoka said:
Funny, abortion isn't outlawed, yet this still happened. Way to push your pro-abortion agenda.

Anyone who has had anything to do with abortion can never be considered 'pro-abortion', let alone being accused of having an 'agenda'.

Don't twist my words into a parody.

It's the mother's right to choose how her life is defined by an unwanted pregnancy, not her parents and certainly not yours.
 

CorvusCamenarum

macrumors 65816
Dec 16, 2004
1,231
1
Birmingham, AL
Blue Velvet said:
It's the mother's right to choose how her life is defined by an unwanted pregnancy, not her parents and certainly not yours.
Since the girl in the aforementioned article is underage, then yes her parents do have some say in the matter, as they're still responsible for her. Add to that the fact that in cases like this, the grandparents usually end up having a significant if not primary role in raising the child. Unless you're independently wealthy, no 16-year-old is anywhere near ready for dealing with everything that having a child entails.
 

Blue Velvet

Moderator emeritus
Jul 4, 2004
21,652
123
CorvusCamenarum said:
Since the girl in the aforementioned article is underage, then yes her parents do have some say in the matter, as they're still responsible for her. Add to that the fact that in cases like this, the grandparents usually end up having a significant if not primary role in raising the child. Unless you're independently wealthy, no 16-year-old is anywhere near ready for dealing with everything that having a child entails.
Yes, you're right in this case -- however, if the couple involved had had good access to contraception this would never have happened. Some may argue that they shouldn't have been having sex but telling teenagers they shouldn't be having sex ignores the reality of what your body is telling you at that age.

However, I wasn't being specific -- just vague in a Sunday morning pre-coffee-ish way.