Texas teens' case tests fetus protection statute

[stubeeef]

If Bruce Banner hadn't been exposed to radiation, there'd be no Incredible Hulk!

ROFLOL, that was funny.

If the coyote was smarter or faster the road runner would be dead!

If elmer could "kill the wabbit"!

If daffy duck had invented windows and was the billionair he always wanted to be!

Yes, if these things happened the world would be different!

How old are your girls now? Doing all of that to "protect" or shield them doesn't mean they'll turn out great or not.

answer...

It will not gaurentee great kids/adults just help prevent some future crap.

jsw, I understand what you are saying about be overprotective, I know you are interested in some of the same kid safe internet software as previously discussed,

However, I've been looking for a way to enhance her web access, since there's a lot of cool (and free) stuff out there... along with all the scary things. Good to hear of a good product.

There is of course, as you and I too recognize, a fine line in exposing such unfiltered info to inquiring minds. When we first got digital cable my 8 yr old learned how to use it faster than me, we got up one morning with her hiding behind the couch scared and hardcore porn on the tube, she was almost shaking she could not understand or conceptualize why they sounded in such pain. Filters are in place and I yelled a good one to Time Warner.

My girls are 6,7,8 yrs old, and while we discuss death, good and bad people I am not ready to discuss intercourse or oral sex quite yet. In todays world my kids had "stranger" talks as 5 yr olds. I didn't have to have that growing up, it is a somewhat different world, some for the better. Child abductions happened when I was little too, they just weren't disscussed. So bringing this out is good, but hard for 5 yr olds to understand.

Abortion is a hot potato, murder isn't, pedophila isn't, rape isn't, and dare I say, contraception for 8yr olds isn't. Is there an age line? If so where is it.

As I stated earlier, parenting is difficult, more so if you actually try to do it well. I don't have the answer either, but more is not always better.

PS.JSW Congrats on your second daughter! That is awesome, you're defintately outnumbered now! Heck in my house even the dog is a girl.

 

[MacNut]

It's the mother's right to choose how her life is defined by an unwanted pregnancy, not her parents and certainly not yours.

What about the fathers rights, does he get a say in what happens to his unborn child. The kid is partially his its not like one morning a woman ends up pregnant all by herself.

 

[Blue Velvet]

What about the fathers rights, does he get a say in what happens to his unborn child. The kid is partially his its not like one morning a woman ends up pregnant all by herself.

Of course, although 'rights' probably have a different meaning in the father's case -- I'm not a lawyer. With rights comes responsibility...

However, it is the mother who bears the child and gives birth to it.

What do you think should happen if a woman becomes pregnant and doesn't wish to have the baby but yet the father does?

There are no easy answers but if it was me, my primary concern would be with myself, my career and my future with or without a child, then the father's wishes and I'd pay scant lip-service to any relatives & parents... but of course, I'm not 16 and have a certain level of financial independence. If that makes me appear 'selfish', then so be it... once in a while, women should occasionally put themselves first, shocking as that might seem.

Despite appearances, I agree with many posters here... abortion is never an easy option but an unwanted pregnancy isn't either. Putting the children up for adoption in this case might have been better but the girl was in no fit mind and more importantly, didn't feel that she had the network and support to choose that option.

 

[MacNut]

There are no easy answers but if it was me, my primary concern would be with myself, my career and my future with or without a child, then the father's wishes and I'd pay scant lip-service to any relatives & parents... but of course, I'm not 16 and have a certain level of financial independence. If that makes me appear 'selfish', then so be it... once in a while, women should occasionally put themselves first, shocking as that might seem.

But shouldn't you think of that before you have unprotected sex.

 

[Blue Velvet]

But shouldn't you think of that before you have unprotected sex.

Yes but teenagers are always doing irresponsible things. I did and so did many of my friends... it's human nature.

The real question is what systems and support are in place to pick things up and put them on the right path when all goes horribly wrong and confusing... especially for vulnerable individuals.

Jailing either of these two is a travesty.

 

[madoka]

Anyone who has had anything to do with abortion can never be considered 'pro-abortion', let alone being accused of having an 'agenda'.

It's the mother's right to choose how her life is defined by an unwanted pregnancy, not her parents and certainly not yours.

1. Yes, there are plenty of PRO-abortion people out there. The abortion industry is run mostly by men for the convenience of men and they make hundreds of millions of dollars a year on killing babies.

2. To say that pro-abortionists don't have an agenda is either naive or a lie.

3. The vast majority of people want to live, yet abortion takes that "choice" away from the child under the false guise of women's rights. Millions of innocent lives are dissected and vacuumed out of wombs, rather than change laws to improve women's socio-economic status. The term abortion as pro-choice is a misnomer coined by the pro-abortion movement.

4. You say it's not my choice, yet you've interjected yourself into their lives without any qualms. They killed two babies illegally and somehow you're trying to make them seem like the victims?

 

[Blue Velvet]

1. Yes, there are plenty of PRO-abortion people out there. The abortion industry is run mostly by men for the convenience of men and they make hundreds of millions of dollars a year on killing babies.

2. To say that pro-abortionists don't have an agenda is either naive or a lie.

3. The vast majority of people want to live, yet abortion takes that "choice" away from the child under the false guise of women's rights. Millions of innocent lives are dissected and vacuumed out of wombs, rather than change laws to improve women's socio-economic status. The term abortion as pro-choice is a misnomer coined by the pro-abortion movement.

4. You say it's not my choice, yet you've interjected yourself into their lives without any qualms. They killed two babies illegally and somehow you're trying to make them seem like the victims?

• They are not babies or children -- they are foetuses.
• How is abortion convenient for men and not for women?
• Improving women's socio-economic status by changing laws, although an admirable objective, is not relevant to the issue of unwanted preganancies. Are you suggesting that the state pay women to carry to full-term and support these women & children fully?
• How have I interjected myself into their lives? Do you think they're sitting there, reading MR forums and thinking 'Oh yeah, Blue Velvet -- she's so right, we better do what she says'? Puhhleaze...

You sound like you don't want women to have control of their own bodies... you and I will never agree on this issue, so let's just leave it there.

 

[mactastic]

Ah yes... the old bull**** that anyone who supports a woman's right to reproductive choice actually ENJOYS abortions. The thought of piles of dead fetuses actually THRILLS them, right? Abortions for everyone! Clinics in the malls, with sandwich-board-clad advertisers outside yelling "Come on in and abort your fetus!"

Rubbish. I don't like abortions, and don't want to see anyone have to go through it. But IT'S GONNA HAPPEN WHETHER IT'S LEGAL OR NOT! And if it's not legal, the woman is far more likely to die during the procedure.

If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns, right? But if abortions are outlawed, they'll suddenly go away? Puhleeze.

 

[rainman::|:|]

Yeah, I used to be strongly pro-life for religious reasons (yes, you heard me right, i'm an ex-christian) and when I started opening my eyes to their perspective, all of the Planned Parenthood (largest abortion provider) staff that I've met have been caring, devoted people that are more like social workers than profit-mongers... In fact, most of these people are so badly underpaid that they have second jobs to support their families (and yes, they actually have kids! they didn't scrape them out, funny that!). While I agree that modern abortion was *started* by men as a very sexist institution, victimizing women, that in the past 30 years women have taken over and kicked men out... Only men I know that work near abortion clinics are gay men, at least around here. I don't want to sound all unicorns-and-puppies but it's more like a sisterhood of women trying to support other women in what may be the darkest point in their lives.

And I agree 100% with Mactastic... I don't like abortions either, but now that I've opened my eyes to the history of abortion, I realize it's legalization is an important safety measure no matter how non-ideal abortion may be.

 

[Applespider]

But shouldn't you think of that before you have unprotected sex.

I don't think any of us are saying that abortion should be treated as a regular form of birth control. There are other options (yes, including abstinence) which should be taught. But there are accidents, with condoms splitting, hormones carrying folks away, Pills failing due to food poisoning etc.

I do believe it is the woman's choice whether to proceed with the pregnancy. If the father wants to be involved, then I'd like to think that before they had sex, they were sufficiently known to another that they can have a discussion about it. But, any child will undoubtedly have more of an impact on the mother's life so the ultimate decision has to be hers.

I have seen the amazing pictures etc of how a foetus looks within weeks of conception but I honestly believe that it is better to terminate a pregnancy than bring a child into the world who might at best be tolerated and at worst unwanted.

I'm not pro-abortion, I'm pro-choice. I believe a woman should have the counselling she needs to be able to understand the magnitude of what she is doing and how she may be affected. I do know women who have had abortions and it has haunted them *but* looking back, they say that if they had the choice again, they'd have done the same thing since it wasn't the right time to bring a child into the world. Women who have abortions tend not to treat it cavalierly - it's a major life decision that will affect them for years regardless of what they decide is right for them. Personally, I'm not sure what I'd do but I'm glad I have options.

There is still a stigma for women who give birth outside a relationship, and I don't think you can inflict that on a woman for the rest of her life, for the sake of a cluster of cells which aren't yet sentient.

 

[Blue Velvet]

...I don't think you can inflict that on a woman for the rest of her life, for the sake of a cluster of cells which aren't yet sentient.

So incredibly well put.
I'm gobsmacked in admiration...

 

[acedickson]

What about the fathers rights, does he get a say in what happens to his unborn child. The kid is partially his its not like one morning a woman ends up pregnant all by herself.

No, fathers have no say once the baby is conceived. It's all up to the mother from there on. I learned that lesson the hard way, but I have to say it turned out for the best.

 

[Leareth]

In the United States , Roe v. Wade I believe was the landmark case that decided the issue of fathers rights when it comes down to abortion, they have none... And the rights of women to have an abortion on demand.

In this case of the teen and her boyfriend, i think it was his mother that said no to abortion but her parents supported her choice. I wished she lived in a more tolerant state and gotten the abortion done by a professional and earlier in the pregnancy...but sometimes teens dont know they are pregnant until the 4-5 month and by then it is too late to do anything under most countries laws unless it endangers her health.
I think most people would agree that it would be better for them both for the pregnancy to be terminated and the teens actually finishing school and maybe even going to college, then they can get a decent job, be able to take care of any future kids instead of being another teen mother on welfare...

As for those pro-life people , I always ask the same question, what do you do in a case of rape? make a woman carry a child she does not want, that when she looks at it will see the rapist and the rape not the child...

How many cases where there in the last couple of years of so called dumpster babies... some found alive others not , in sense denying the mother the chance to get an abortion you are aiding in murder of an infant.

 

[stubeeef]

I sure like the idea of adoption, 4 more months and 2 children could have been placed in a home where they were wanted. What a waste.

 

[miloblithe]

A reality about adoption is that certain babies are preferenced over other babies by prospective adoptors. Every time I went to the airport in Krasnoyarsk (in Russian, near Mongolia--NOT convenient for Americans to get to), there were several Americans getting on planes to return to the US with their new Russian babies. That's a _long_ way to go to find a baby, but those Russians sure are white.

Not that that is the only reason. The legal obstacles and rights issues give other incentives to go abroad to adopt. But still.

 

[CorvusCamenarum]

Yes, you're right in this case -- however, if the couple involved had had good access to contraception this would never have happened. Some may argue that they shouldn't have been having sex but telling teenagers they shouldn't be having sex ignores the reality of what your body is telling you at that age.

However, I wasn't being specific -- just vague in a Sunday morning pre-coffee-ish way.

I'm sorry, but that argument just doesn't hold water. No offense or anything, but how bloody hard is it to walk down to the corner shop and pick up a pack of condoms?

 

[LethalWolfe]

I sure like the idea of adoption, 4 more months and 2 children could have been placed in a home where they were wanted. What a waste.

Or 2 more children could have been bounced around state facilities and foster homes until they were 18 because no one wanted them (how's that for a healthy upbringing).

You might not agree w/the chosen path, but don't make the alternative sound like a sure lock for happiness and a wonderful life.


Lethal

 

[stubeeef]

A reality about adoption is that certain babies are preferenced over other babies by prospective adoptors. Every time I went to the airport in Krasnoyarsk (in Russian, near Mongolia--NOT convenient for Americans to get to), there were several Americans getting on planes to return to the US with their new Russian babies. That's a _long_ way to go to find a baby, but those Russians sure are white.

Not that that is the only reason. The legal obstacles and rights issues give other incentives to go abroad to adopt. But still.

True, some here are going to china this month, My wife and I almost started the process, after trying for years. I don't know if it is a function of race, or how easy and quick it is overseas vs in the US? But it seems babies in general are in demand vs toddlers. I live in an affluent area and many parents here have dark skinned adopted children, some asian. I would adopt a boy tomorrow if the wife would bite off on it. 3 girls so closely spaced is too hard already, not brave enough to throw a boy on top of it all.

 

[Leareth]

I'm sorry, but that argument just doesn't hold water. No offense or anything, but how bloody hard is it to walk down to the corner shop and pick up a pack of condoms?

In some places. pretty damn hard. Small towns are the worst, everyone knows if you went and bought a box of condoms.
Sometimes you cant afford them and dont have any youth clinics in your town, and sometimes what you get in the store is no good: expired or the store clerks intentionally prick holes with a pin.

And condoms do tear by accident or slip off... and some religions and countries forbid the use of any birth control methods so what do you do then? it was not until 1999 Japanese Gov't approved the pill, so the main method of birth control was abortion, most men did not want to use condoms even though they were and are available.

 

[Blue Velvet]

I'm sorry, but that argument just doesn't hold water. No offense or anything, but how bloody hard is it to walk down to the corner shop and pick up a pack of condoms?

No problem for me, but what's it like for an immature 16 year old in Texas?

I agree with you -- I'm not advocating unprotected sex or abortion as a means of contraception. Arguing about what they should have done in the first place is irrelevant now, anyway.

No offense taken...

 

[stubeeef]

Or 2 more children could have been bounced around state facilities and foster homes until they were 18 because no one wanted them (how's that for a healthy upbringing).

You might not agree w/the chosen path, but don't make the alternative sound like a sure lock for happiness and a wonderful life.


Lethal

It may be pie in the sky, but compared to abortion (graphic ultrasound of abortion not for weak/timid or underage > silent scream.org) I think of it as a better option. I realize that it is my opinion, but nonetheless it is how I feel on the issue.

 

[LethalWolfe]

I'm sorry, but that argument just doesn't hold water. No offense or anything, but how bloody hard is it to walk down to the corner shop and pick up a pack of condoms?

Many teens feel so intimidated and embarrassed by the thought of going to a store and buying condoms that they chose to take the risk and not use them. If condoms where more freely available more teens would use them.

Reality, not subjective moral idealism, should drive the decision making process.


Lethal

 

[wdlove]

No problem for me, but what's it like for an immature 16 year old in Texas?

I agree with you -- I'm not advocating unprotected sex or abortion as a means of contraception. Arguing about what they should have done in the first place is irrelevant now, anyway.

No offense taken...

I hope that we are still OK Blue Velvet.

I'm not sure if this is correct, but from somewhere I heard that a growing number of teenagers are electing abstinence. They take a pledge to wait for marriage.

Our church has two clinics that it works with. I think that counseling is very important for a young mother. Many times they aren't aware of their options. At both places ultrasounds are offered. Many of them don't realize what's growing inside them. That difference alone can make a difference. A social network needs to be setup to help the young lady.

 

[CorvusCamenarum]

In some places. pretty damn hard. Small towns are the worst, everyone knows if you went and bought a box of condoms.

Big whoop. Either people know you're having sex, or you're worried someone might find out about something you probably shouldn't be doing anyway.

Sometimes you cant afford them

If you can't scrape up $5 for a box of condoms, then what business do you have in risking the creation a child you so obviously can't care for?

and dont have any youth clinics in your town, and sometimes what you get in the store is no good: expired or the store clerks intentionally prick holes with a pin.

It's called spermicide. And last time I checked, they have expiration dates on them. You don't need to be having sex if you can't read instructions and numbers.

And condoms do tear by accident or slip off

Yes they can slip or break, but they also come several to a box. See above comment regarding basic literacy.

and some religions and countries forbid the use of any birth control methods so what do you do then?

Those religions and countries probably also restrict sex for when you can deal with what might happen because of sex, namely children. It's rather a wash to say "Oh, I'm going to ignore the rule about not having sex, but I'm going to worry about birth control because it's also against the rules."
As for what you do, it's quite simple: You don't have sex. Shocking, eh? I don't remember reading anywhere about any unalienable right to get laid.

It's all about consequences. One thing causes another. Sadly, we live in a world where people just do whatever they please and then play the victim when something happens they don't like, nevermind the fact that they brought it on themselves.

 

[Mechcozmo]

This hasn't been touched on yet, but I find it very disturbing that the boyfriend can be prosecuted while the girl gets a free pass on the grounds of "it's her pregnancy to terminate."

Yeah... she wanted him to do it, and he gets tossed in jail. This could get ugly.

And what was a 16 year old doing pregnant? Obviously she had been pregnant for 5 months as the article said and she was still with her boyfriend... Seemed more like she had planned it more than just an "oh, s***" moment....