Thank you Apple: No more FW, Ethernet, and Optical

[Martialis]

Thank you for your honesty;

I cannot believe how many people are still deluding themselves in thinking that things like Ethernet and FW are still current technology. In a couple of years, it will be very difficult to from any laptop that supports these long obsolete interfaces at all, from any OEM. People simply need to be prepared and upgrade peripherals in a timely manner, not holding onto the same video cam or sound equipment for decades.

I have no idea there are so many people who are resistant to change, and are afraid of new technology standards. USB3 and TB will be the future, there is literally nothing that anyone here could do about it. Just need to be flexible, and go with the prevalent and functionally superior standards, no reason to be stuck in the same rut of thinking decade after decade.

What in the name of sweet Jesus are you using as your definition of "current" and "obsolete"? Please leave your home some time and realize that ethernet ports are everywhere in our schools, offices, internet cafes, hospitals, airports and on and on and on and on.

Frankly, it doesn't matter at all if you think ethernet is gross and outdated, what matters is that there is currently no trending to eliminating it or replacing it in infrastructure. You can throw all the thunderbolt ports on the macbook pro that you want, but all people are going to do is buy the adapter dongle and continue plugging into ethernet ports.

 

[mrsir2009]

Thats because people still care about ODDs and hard drive space even if they'll never upgrade the hard drive.
The 13 and 15 inch MPBs reign supreme in the real world only because the Airs killed off the Macbooks.

Perhaps, although I've got a MacBook Pro, and for my next laptop I'll probably get an Air, as it is now a mature computer.

 

[addictzz]

While I am amazed and pleased with the all-new macbook pro 2012, I can't help but to express some lamentation on the ports.

Just when I start to move to Firewire (which Apple popularize), they begin to remove it and use newer pricey unpopular Thunderbolt port. Great move!

And we still need those Ethernet ports. There are some NAS that I need to setup and they require me to connect LAN Cable to laptop's ethernet.


I would have less complain if Apple includes the Thunderbolt-FW & Thunderbolt-Ethernet in the package.

 

[DblHelix]

The vast majority of people buying the top of the line MBPs will also be running 27" thunderbolt displays. Plug a little thunderbolt cable in and you have ethernet, firewire, and everything else. Need a drive, plug it in. How often do you really use one? I haven't used one in years since I ripped all of my CDs onto my computer.

 

[arcite]

I remember threads just like this back in'98 when apple introduced USB and didi away with the floppy disk. Some people just fear change. You know, apple still kept around their older model MacBook pros for a reason!


If someone is in an office environment, strapped to a desk, there will be a plethora of port expansions, docks, and other solutions to connect Ethernet. ....don't you guys figure that just maybe apple did their research and concluded that this was the right time to move on by scrapping legacy ports? 5 years from now we'll all look back at this and laugh, just like when apple had the AUDACITY to eliminate the floppy disk.


Frankly, I'm more concerned about the non upgradable Ssd.

 

[Xiroteus]

5 years from now we'll all look back at this and laugh, just like when apple had the AUDACITY to eliminate the floppy disk.

Frankly, I'm more concerned about the non upgradable Ssd.

Floppy media quickly became rather pointless plus no one has libraries of music and movies on them. Apple removed those drives in 1998? I did not even start using a floppy until 1999, these things cost money, of course if someone can afford a Mac they are likely up on current tech. Took awhile to be able to afford flash drives.

Thing is ten years from now all the optical based media I own will still be around, I was glad to get rid of floppies because they held very little and were unstable, still had to use a floppy drive until 2007-2008 because of a old camera I had, thrilled when I was FINALLY able to upgrade.

 

[steve-p]

I have no idea

That's the only meaningful part of anything you said.

 

[pat park]

Relax. Good points you make. Sorry for my ignorance.

I hope you feel better.

Um, because those ports would no longer work with the computers they are using?



All of those are ridiculous and unacceptable solutions. I'm not even in IT and even I know that relying entirely on wireless networking is ridiculous and unacceptable, and never upgrading the computers is almost as absurd.



You mean "doesn't have wifi", I assume.



Yes, in a sense they are. What, do you think network and hardware upgrades are somehow optional?

 

[MadTester]

Post proof or retract.

I don't want to hear speculation that someone has announced that such an adapter will eventually exist.

Can I, TODAY, walk into an Apple store, hand them money, and acquire this adapter? If not, what you just said is not true. I can't have those things.



"Design the computer around" is pretty emotionally-laden language. No one is asking that they give us a machine which is a five foot scale model of a roman amphtheatre with a firewire port on a pedestal in the middle, with soft lighting shining down on it.

But yes. I would like Apple to continue to provide basic support for a few more options here and there. If I wanted a computer from a company that would strip a port I needed to use because it saved them $0.25, I would not be buying Apple's hardware in the first place.

Apple's strength has been providing good and complete computers. As they migrate towards having only a couple of expansion plugs available, they migrate away from me being able to use their products without ever-increasing levels of hassle. I really do use FireWire, and I really do use Ethernet. My MBP is, right now, using both. Heck, I actually use an eSATA adapter in the card expansion slot on my old MBP -- shame that there's no longer such an option.

At this rate, my next Mac will probably be an ASUS. For $1500, I can get a big bulky machine (which I don't mind) with better graphics, a faster CPU, user-upgradeable memory, two drive bays and an optical drive, more expansion ports... I've been avoiding the hackintosh thing because I like Apple in principle, but the fact is, they have basically eradicated every part of their product line that I could use for a lot of the things I like to use Macs for. There's a reason I'm using a 2-year-old MBP and a 3-year-old Mini right now...

Well if you actually look on the applestore site they actually sell the TBolt/ethernet adapter already for £25 (around $30?)...

 

[robo456]

Apple is just being an ass. Enough said.

Grrr.. just like dropping the video input capabilities on the 2011 iMac for the Xbox/PS3 gamers...

 

[PracticalMac]

Ethernet was simply designed during a time when mainframe dominated, and when mini-computers size of refrigerators were considered "portable". There is no excuse in continuing to use a port that is designed during Watergate, and has a totally unreasonable size for the function that it performs and the designed bit rate. Its plastic and fragile construction was originally designed for data centers and intranets, very few people today can justify its continued existence.

FW is something that has not been used by normal people in many years. It is mostly a few stubborn people in photo/video production who have a baseless fear of new technology, while clinging to the things that they knew best. Even the iPod and most Apple consumer electronic products have not used it for nearly a decade, that tells how arcane and ineffective this interface really it. It's simply time to upgrade people's drives, peripheral, cameras, etc, and move on from this anachronistic monstrosity.

Ethernet has evolved, now you can get 10 Giga Ethernet connections.
It is by far the best networking hardware available.
Wi-Fi cannot get close in transfer speed.


Because Apple never adopted eSATA or USB3 (till now), FW 800 is the best (some only) choice for millions of Mac users. FW800 is about 4x faster then USB2, and does Target Disk Mode. USB can't.

 

[grrrz]

I'm wondering, do you think these firewire dongle allow for bus power?
what about target mode over fw adapter (not likely)?
anyway they made 30$ and pretty light adapters, given the price and siez of the current thunderbolt hub solutions; that's not so bad.
could be a solution to connect multiple firewire peripheral without daisy chain on current laptop.

 

[Zorn]

As for thunderbolt, who cares??? What if just spend all of my budget on a laptop? I cant afford thunderbolt accessories now...

Uh what? How is your personal budget relevant at all to the design of the machine? I happen to not have any legacy accessories, so if I need an external HD, I'll look for a Thunderbolt one, your budget issues notwithstanding, and it will work great with the new MBP.

Do you seriously not comprehend how ubiquitous Ethernet is in the workplace and how obscenely expensive it would be for our employers to rip out all those ports to replace with whatever hip, proprietary new thing Apple wants to push?

I work in IT, and we upgrade businesses with aging Ethernet networks to 802.11n on the regular. They can even use both. It's almost silly for an office these days to not have some type of Wifi given the myriad devices that employees are carrying that would benefit from it; it's a productivity concern.

Apple's strength has been providing good and complete computers. As they migrate towards having only a couple of expansion plugs available, they migrate away from me being able to use their products without ever-increasing levels of hassle. I really do use FireWire, and I really do use Ethernet. My MBP is, right now, using both. Heck, I actually use an eSATA adapter in the card expansion slot on my old MBP -- shame that there's no longer such an option.

Ok. I get it. You really love your Firewire drive. But how long ago did you buy that? It's probably been a while. Hard drives don't last forever. You'll probably want a new one, or be replacing it at some point fairly soon. When you do, most places you look probably won't even offer the aging Firewire version anymore, so just get a Thunderbolt or USB 3.0 one and your problem is solved. Yes, it's a shocker, you can't just use your gear that runs a trusty old legacy standard forever with new modern machines. Seen a new motherboard lately with IDE ports?

Hey Apple you should have a blu-ray drive! Removing the optical drive completely just makes it feel costly and limited.

Actually, the opposite is true. Building in a Blu-ray drive is costly, not just for the components, but also the licensing costs for the things surrounding it. Why would you want to spend $20 on a disc, that you have to constantly carry around in a case and may or may not work across various devices you have, when you can get just about any movie these days as a digital download and view it anywhere? If you get that movie from Amazon or Apple (pretty much the main places) they'll even sync it for you across devices. I was a physical media person for a long time; I have a DVD/blu-ray collection some 300 strong. But it's been over a year since I've bought a physical disc, since digital distribution has evolved to a point that I no longer have to. And unlike before, when I was tethered to my living room or the player in my bedroom, anywhere I am across any device (tablet, phone, computer) I can access my movies.

 

[PracticalMac]

I'm wondering, do you think these firewire dongle allow for bus power?
what about target mode over fw adapter (not likely)?
anyway they made 30$ and pretty light adapters, given the price and siez of the current thunderbolt hub solutions; that's not so bad.
could be a solution to connect multiple firewire peripheral without daisy chain on current laptop.

Very true!

TB is "10 Watt", maybe 2A @ 5V?
FW is 45 Watt total, max of 30V and max 1.5A.

FB exceeds TB in power delivered.

Likely not TDM.

 

[PracticalMac]

Ok. I get it. You really love your Firewire drive. But how long ago did you buy that?.

Its really Apples fault.

Until recently the fastest HDD interface was FW800, which is about 4x faster then USB2.

TB HDD are very new on market, 2 to 3 months now.

I myself bought 3 FW800 external HDD (2x RAID and single drive) November last year because, simply, it was fastest connection to Mac.

 

[Zorn]

Its really Apples fault.

Until recently the fastest HDD interface was FW800, which is about 4x faster then USB2.

TB HDD are very new on market, 2 to 3 months now.

I myself bought 3 FW800 external HDD (2x RAID and single drive) November last year because, simply, it was fastest connection to Mac.

And you would be well served by the new machine, since a simple adapter cable lets your drive connect to it. Then when it's time to upgrade to a faster HD, you just get the TB one. No problem here or there.

 

[PracticalMac]

And you would be well served by the new machine, since a simple adapter cable lets your drive connect to it. Then when it's time to upgrade to a faster HD, you just get the TB one. No problem here or there.

Why should I?

 

[MacBook Ike]

It's crazy to tell someone else what they use or should be using!

Do you understand how ignorant and disrespectful it is,to tell another person what they should be using,or that their equipment is obsolete and out-dated! Are you basing this on what YOU SEE people use? I bought brand new FireWire hard-drives in the year,not five yrs. ago! Should Mercedes and BMW stop making S-Class sedans and 7-series because they sell more C-Classes and 3-Series! Anybody knows that more expensive models usually outsell the more affordable ones! We don't need to get rid of our equipment,for someone else's wishes or needs. Why is this hard to understand? You do what's best for you,you can't tell Pros that make a living with their equipment,that they should take three extra steps,that they're out of touch with today's tech,when most of us have Wi-Fi AND Ethernet,and use both!

 

[Zorn]

No one is telling anybody what they should or shouldn't be using, but it's fair game to point out connections that are going the way of the Dodo. What I think is ridiculous is to want the latest machines and technology, but want legacy support for every little thing. If Apple capitulated to people like that, we would have a Macbook Pro the size of a phone book with ADC connectors, SCSI connectors, PCMCIA slots, PS2, Serial, FW, FW800, Ethernet, 56k Modem, DVI, VGA, a floppy drive, a Superdrive, etc (and yes, people threw a fit when each of those things got removed).

Apple needs to take steps to drop old tech in order to be able to innovate and make thin machines like this. If you don't like that, or you are married to your aging gear, then use the computer that you presently use those items with and be happy. Don't bitch and moan because next generation machines aren't supporting your old accessories.

 

[arcite]

Guys, you make it sound as If Apple is making you upgrade! Apple even kept the previous models around, or hey just buy a end of life 17 inches...before they're history

 

[grrrz]

Very true!

TB is "10 Watt", maybe 2A @ 5V?
FW is 45 Watt total, max of 30V and max 1.5A.

FB exceeds TB in power delivered.

Likely not TDM.

too bad, but I'll get to this in a few years, if and when I need a new computer, as late as possible. then maybe I'll also need a new sound interface, and maybe thunderbolt would have become the norm.
But for now this retina macbook is completely disconnected (litterally) from the pro audio world where firewire is the norm, and usb2 a less effiscient second choice (more cpu hungry, more latency). Big names (motu, rme, apogee...) are slowly moving to usb with hybrid interfaces. nothing thunderbolt in sight, it has to become more popular in the pc world.
If they ditched the previous line entirely it would have been a scandal but this way, slow transition, and some time to think about maybe going back to pc.

 

[Xiroteus]

Actually, the opposite is true. Building in a Blu-ray drive is costly, not just for the components, but also the licensing costs for the things surrounding it. Why would you want to spend $20 on a disc, that you have to constantly carry around in a case and may or may not work across various devices you have, when you can get just about any movie these days as a digital download and view it anywhere?

I can find blu-rays much cheaper then twenty dollars, a digital download is compressed and overpriced, I prefer to spend half as much for better quality and more control, plus I can adapt it myself to over devices if I wish. Digital media is currently far too costly.

It would have to be something crazy like five dollars for me to even think about touching it, and that would be a 1080P digital file. I can still find used blu-rays for five dollars.

If you get that movie from Amazon or Apple (pretty much the main places) they'll even sync it for you across devices. I was a physical media person for a long time; I have a DVD/blu-ray collection some 300 strong. But it's been over a year since I've bought a physical disc, since digital distribution has evolved to a point that I no longer have to. And unlike before, when I was tethered to my living room or the player in my bedroom, anywhere I am across any device (tablet, phone, computer) I can access my movies.

I like the idea of digital media done right, it would have to be uncompressed and very cheap which is not going to happen. I want more control over my collection then digital allows.

I am aware this seems to be exclusive to such media, we spend a ton of money on things we have no control over or really do not own it, internet, cable is basically streaming every month, most bills, so why is media so different? Not really sure, I know I think to find good prices.

 

[therealseebs]

I work in IT, and we upgrade businesses with aging Ethernet networks to 802.11n on the regular. They can even use both. It's almost silly for an office these days to not have some type of Wifi given the myriad devices that employees are carrying that would benefit from it; it's a productivity concern.

We have wifi. But if I'm doing serious work, I'm using Ethernet, because I don't want to sit around being bored for five minutes while large things copy.

Ok. I get it.

No, you really, really, don't.

You really love your Firewire drive. But how long ago did you buy that?

Last Thursday.

Seriously. Bought a brand new Firewire drive Thursday. Why? Because it's by far the highest performance available on the machine I wanted to use it on. And because it works with my mini, and my other mini, and my old MBP.

Also, it's not just about drives. I also bought a piece of music hardware that's in the same price range as a MBP (a little lower, but not much). And it has firewire, because that's what people use for serious music hardware. Maybe that'll change, but consider that people keep old music hardware around for decades. There's a reason I still have SCSI cables. I don't expect Apple to provide SCSI ports on laptops, but firewire's got some years left in it.

It's probably been a while. Hard drives don't last forever. You'll probably want a new one, or be replacing it at some point fairly soon. When you do, most places you look probably won't even offer the aging Firewire version anymore, so just get a Thunderbolt or USB 3.0 one and your problem is solved.

USB 3.0 does not come close to solving problems as well as FireWire does. FireWire remains a much better choice for things that use real bandwidth. There's a reason that we've kept using FireWire for so long -- USB has never offered a credible alternative for non-trivial usage.

What if I got a Mac Pro? Whoops! No Thunderbolt. So if I want to share a drive between my laptop and my hypothetical Mac Pro, Thunderbolt's not an option. USB3? Well, I guess I could use a PCIe slot on it. It's not included.

Yes, it's a shocker, you can't just use your gear that runs a trusty old legacy standard forever with new modern machines. Seen a new motherboard lately with IDE ports?

Yes. A lot of modern PC motherboards (not all, but many) continue to provide at least one PATA port because sometimes people want to use hardware that's available in that form factor.

(I snipped the part about blu-ray, but I basically agree on that; I don't have any interest in seeing Apple support Sony's garbage.)

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Guys, you make it sound as If Apple is making you upgrade! Apple even kept the previous models around, or hey just buy a end of life 17 inches...before they're history

Apple is, however, making it so that the upgrade I would otherwise like (better display) is inextricably tied to losing functionality I still rely on.

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Well if you actually look on the applestore site they actually sell the TBolt/ethernet adapter already for £25 (around $30?)...

But not the FW one. And "can order from store" isn't quite the same as "can go get it today".

 

[Marrakas]

I can't believe that carrying a small adapter can make people cry so much. You guys got issues.

 

[therealseebs]

I can't believe that carrying a small adapter can make people cry so much. You guys got issues.

The word "adapter" is actually a transliteration of an ancient Sanskrit phrase meaning, literally, "i know i had that yesterday but now i need it and i can't find it".

I have bins full of adapters for various things (mini-DVI, mini display port, DVI, VGA, and so on), and time and time again, it turns out that I can't find the one I need right now.

Beyond that, though... It used to be that there were two lines. MacBook for the casual-use machines for people who don't need unusual ports, MacBook Pro for the pro users who want a bit more functionality. The Pro line suffered a bit from Apple's tendency to prioritize glitz over function, but at the end of the day, the MBP was the computer you got if you wanted a workhorse machine that would do what it was supposed to do and come with essential functionality available.

But now, with the MBPR, Apple has finally said "we know there are really good technical reasons for the pro users to need this port, but we would rather charge you $29 and make you carry a separate adapter instead of just putting that core functionality in the machine." There isn't a real pro line anymore.