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The 2015-2016 Football Thread
- Thread starter Lord Blackadder
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Too angry to analyze the match properly.
Neither side comes out of this looking good though. Man Utd might have done the double on Liverpool, but it was an extraordinarily lucky smash and grab by the Mancunians, De Gea saved Utd's butt a couple times and both teams are crying out for a proper striker.
The most damning thing is, it looked every bit of the 6th place versus 9th place clash that it was. Neither team is very good. It just sucks being on the losing end of such a muddle.
Neither side comes out of this looking good though. Man Utd might have done the double on Liverpool, but it was an extraordinarily lucky smash and grab by the Mancunians, De Gea saved Utd's butt a couple times and both teams are crying out for a proper striker.
The most damning thing is, it looked every bit of the 6th place versus 9th place clash that it was. Neither team is very good. It just sucks being on the losing end of such a muddle.
Bless De Gea! At least Man U got the win, it was needed.
And on the back of Forestieri's goals of the season, I bring you
Perfect performance by Manchester United; 1 Win, 2 Wind up.
Stoke City v Arsenal - similar rubbish football; players in each others way, passes too short/long, ball given away, head tennis, and some fine saves by the 'keepers. Arsenal clearly cheating having a goalie who can rescue their defence.
Goalkeeper on Wikipedia?
Fizzoid - I can't get the video to play, am I missing much?
Cheers,
OW
Stoke City v Arsenal - similar rubbish football; players in each others way, passes too short/long, ball given away, head tennis, and some fine saves by the 'keepers. Arsenal clearly cheating having a goalie who can rescue their defence.
Goalkeeper on Wikipedia?
Fizzoid - I can't get the video to play, am I missing much?
Cheers,
OW
Flanagan on the bench for Liverpool for the cup tie against Exeter. It's good to see his name on the sheet again after 20 months (!) out.
Ibe, Allen, Mignolet and Benteke all start. This squad should be too much for Exeter - though Liverpool are terrible at breaking down defensive sides, so I will still be surprised by a multiple-goal win.
EDIT: A decent assist from Benteke, bookended by 89 minutes of crap from the big man. He has absolutely no confidence whatsoever in front of goal.
Liverpool do not have any attack to speak of at the moment. 4th place is clearly impossible with the current squad.
Ibe, Allen, Mignolet and Benteke all start. This squad should be too much for Exeter - though Liverpool are terrible at breaking down defensive sides, so I will still be surprised by a multiple-goal win.
EDIT: A decent assist from Benteke, bookended by 89 minutes of crap from the big man. He has absolutely no confidence whatsoever in front of goal.
Liverpool do not have any attack to speak of at the moment. 4th place is clearly impossible with the current squad.
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As Shearer was saying, unless you've got a midfield full of goals, then you need a 20 goal as season striker to really be up there.
I know it's also about the defence, but Liverpool's league goal difference would put them in 13th, equal with Chelsea
I know it's also about the defence, but Liverpool's league goal difference would put them in 13th, equal with Chelsea
I really want to buck the current trend and say that this season and the next are write-offs. Give Klopp time and money and plan to be competitive in 2017-2018.
...but nobody else thinks that way.
...but nobody else thinks that way.
Almost two whole years? You have taken those crazy pills again?!
I wouldn't be all that negative - this one you even may take some (unimportant) light silverware with you (not sure about all the cups you're still in but I think it's 3, right?) if rather lucky. What you need is time to train and talk (to the players, not the press..) and you don't have that. No winter break, too many games etc pp. Bring in some new players and summer break and I expect them to be way sharper than this season. Caveat: Klopp really has to overcome his deficit with deep and compact playing teams. We talked about that one and I don't see any progress at all so far.
On the other side I expect City to be much, much more threatening than they are already with Pep on the sideline.
Chelsea will come back in style I guess.
United possibly too (not with VanGaal though imo).
Tottenham?
Arsenal is a given.
Won't be easy - not next year and not the year after as well. Only redeeming factor I see is that Klopp/Buvac made some brilliant calls re players in the past and have a little more cash in the pocket now to spend so maybe can afford some new talent that does not take a season to finally work within his system. New players shouldn't come in last minute of the transfer window though.
I wouldn't be all that negative - this one you even may take some (unimportant) light silverware with you (not sure about all the cups you're still in but I think it's 3, right?) if rather lucky. What you need is time to train and talk (to the players, not the press..) and you don't have that. No winter break, too many games etc pp. Bring in some new players and summer break and I expect them to be way sharper than this season. Caveat: Klopp really has to overcome his deficit with deep and compact playing teams. We talked about that one and I don't see any progress at all so far.
On the other side I expect City to be much, much more threatening than they are already with Pep on the sideline.
Chelsea will come back in style I guess.
United possibly too (not with VanGaal though imo).
Tottenham?
Arsenal is a given.
Won't be easy - not next year and not the year after as well. Only redeeming factor I see is that Klopp/Buvac made some brilliant calls re players in the past and have a little more cash in the pocket now to spend so maybe can afford some new talent that does not take a season to finally work within his system. New players shouldn't come in last minute of the transfer window though.
I'm not suggesting Liverpool stop competing, but expectations should be lowered for at least the next 2-3 transfer windows. Liverpool are still competing in both domestic cups plus the Europa League - a win in the latter would snag a CL berth away from the 4th place finishing side.
Ultimately, the squad needs a reliable striker, a center back and probably a goalkeeper. The club needs to support Klopp with the knowledge that it may take another season plus before the club is really fully rebuilt in the Klopp image. We need to get a squad with a whole season playing together under its belt. Too much rotation this year due to managerial shuffles and injuries.
As for deep, compact teams - a star forward goes a long way towards fixing that problem, but it does seem a weakness in Klopp's system. Fortunately among the top teams only Chelsea resort to that style of play, but many less-wealthy clubs use it often and breaking down that kind of defense is key to winning the Premier League.
Liverpool are 9th on global football's rich list, but 5 of the top 10 richest clubs are in the Premier League, which means at least one "big" English club is going to get left out of the CL every year now.
Striker position is probably the most crucial in Klopp's system. First he got Barrios, scoring machine but heavily depended on the creative midfield = which was glorious (Sahin, Götze, Kagawa in his prime and Kuba). After that he found Lewy who is now probably the best "conservatively" striker in the world. After that he struggled. Immobile failed hard and it was Klopp's fault for not implementing Aubameyang as his striker no1. They all needed a season minimum to work out as a reliable element in his system. I guess Tekkers can fill that role - but not this season and he needs to play.
In his last season Klopp was changing up front every other match - which left him with three unconfident strikers in the end.
For deep lying teams: you have to beat the mid-low level teams on a regular basis when trying to compete up top. I read (didn't see it, so correct me if wrong) that United didn't really attack either last game. But in general I do agree: Klopp as of late (this + last two seasons) hasn't got any problems with competing with top teams - which makes him attractive for CL teams. But if he doesn't overcome said problem he will ultimately fail as a top-coach imo.
To be fair, I can't think of any managers that are specialists in breaking down defensive teams. Teams that try to control such games through superior possession or pressing always risk being hit on the break - which is why teams sit deep in the first place. The alternative is to also sit deep like Chelsea but that's boring as hell.
The answer is to improve the overall quality of the squad to the extent that the tactics of the opposition are less relevant. I think that's really how Klopp's system works - if you are good enough at the geggenpressing game, it doesn't matter what your opponent tries to do. You might tweak your formation a little here and there, but it's really all about executing the press.
The answer is to improve the overall quality of the squad to the extent that the tactics of the opposition are less relevant. I think that's really how Klopp's system works - if you are good enough at the geggenpressing game, it doesn't matter what your opponent tries to do. You might tweak your formation a little here and there, but it's really all about executing the press.
You can only play "Gegenpressing" in case the opponent has the ball. I haven't been watching many Pool games lately - but most of those against Klopp's late BVB the opponent just kicked the ball far, far away and due the hectic playstyle and slpstick defending scored way more than should be the case. They just refused to take the ball at all. Often not having any real other chances the whole game. So while it's true for most managers having difficulties breaking the shell I am convinced Klopp's specific approach was (still is?) almost suicide.
In short: possession: yes. Not being able to create any threatening chances out of that possession: yes.
There are plenty of teams that play a bit less onesided than Klopp and still create chances against deep-lying teams. Tuchel comes to mind (not even mentioning Pep in this thread but Löw could be argued as well - and he isn't even top tier management in my opinion). Tuchel managed exactly that: great pressing game but also a bit more relaxed possession play to stay cool while still creating chances against extremely compact teams - with almost the identical squad that Klopp had.
[doublepost=1453475631][/doublepost]Or in other words: the extremely hectic approach is great for the emotional side of the game. But also leads to confusion among the own team and a lot of sloppy defending. If you don't have that world class striker or 2-3 really threatening midfielders competing in the league isn't possible.
On the other hand: once in the CL and facing mostly attacking teams chances are that you can do more than good - the real task is to get that CL spot though.
I agree with most of what you said, however this bit about CL footie - what if the opposition in CL is a Jose Mou team? Klopp's teams may have problems breaking them down too!
But the teams in the CL play way more attacking themselves compared to the league. (Except Mou
) At least it's that way compared to the Bundesliga.But my posts sound a bit too harsh. After 7 years I guess it's understandable if the fire lost some of its spark*. The last season at Dortmund was just too damn frustrating and makes the work by Tuchel look like a miracle.
*makes one appreciate Wenger's work even more.
Bloody hell. 9 goals, two in extra time. So many lead changes! Well, we can't point the finger of blame at Liverpool's offense today. But needing five goals to win a game (against Norwich, who Liverpool seem to know how to score against anyway) is madness.
This fits today's to a certain extent, though in this case Norwich took a pretty positive approach to the game, at least for certain stretches, and it nearly paid off. Although it has to be said that Liverpool are missing several of their best defenders on paper and we've just not had a long run of games with the same back four. Not to mention that our keeper is dodgy. So it's partially Klopp's tactics exposing the defense a bit, but also the defense as a unit being unable to do their job properly.
twietee said:
This fits today's to a certain extent, though in this case Norwich took a pretty positive approach to the game, at least for certain stretches, and it nearly paid off. Although it has to be said that Liverpool are missing several of their best defenders on paper and we've just not had a long run of games with the same back four. Not to mention that our keeper is dodgy. So it's partially Klopp's tactics exposing the defense a bit, but also the defense as a unit being unable to do their job properly.
Man Utd lost at home to a Southampton side which has been pretty poor this season. Unfortunately I do not see us getting top 4 if LVG continues as manager.
Sack LVG and let Giggs take over till the end of the season, and if he does well, he can stay; otherwise get a top class manager in the summer (Mourinho, Guardiola (unlikely), Pochettino...). We have nothing to lose at this point.
Sack LVG and let Giggs take over till the end of the season, and if he does well, he can stay; otherwise get a top class manager in the summer (Mourinho, Guardiola (unlikely), Pochettino...). We have nothing to lose at this point.
Was at the game - we probably should have nicked it in the end but it was pretty close, Wednesday hit the post early on and deservedly went ahead soon after, but then we missed a penalty and new boy (who's quite old...) Kermorgant headed a sitter wide at the end.
Good luck for the rest of the season, think you'll be there or thereabouts come the end.