The 2017-2018 Football Thread

[decafjava]

Yes, England may have a chance actually.

Would I be remiss to point out Germany never wins in Russia? (Brest-Litovsk treaty a temporary aside) #historynerd

 

[Apple fanboy]

Well, yes.

But that doesn't necessarily prevent another team, perhaps an even older enemy (France, anyone?) knocking England out on penalties.

If I were Mr Southgate, (and he has personal experience of this, so I imagine that he has indeed paid heed to the subject matter under discussion), I would ensure that the squad practised penalties until they are twitching in heir sleep, practicing penalty shots.

Nevertheless, thus far, this World Cup is confounding expectations.

Germany are not professional and clinical, chess players on a pitch, but listless and lethargic and actually, shockingly poor.

England are not fractious and scandal-prone, but calm, collected and unassuming and playing as though they are actually enjoying themselves, worse still, almost playing as a team.

Just let Harry Kane do the training for the rest of the team. He seems to know what he's doing!

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I think Firmino should be starting this match, with his high work rate. The Serbs are holding up well so far, and have shown an ability to pas the ball around in Brazil's half.

England are not fractious and scandal-prone, but calm, collected and unassuming and playing as though they are actually enjoying themselves, worse still, almost playing as a team.

The problem is, this narrative has been generated on the backs of two wins against two relative minnows. England did reasonably well but were not really tested.

The second England play badly or are stymied by a good opponent (like, say, Belgium...) the knives will be out and "proper football men" in TV studios around the nation will be explaining at length how Southgate got it all wrong, the players aren't up for it etc etc.

The fact remains that England are probably just about a quarterfinal-quality team, and there are teams in this tournament like Croatia and Belgium who are arguably as good or better at the moment - but not loaded with the same level of expectation. Southgate will need to manage expectations when results don't go England's way.

 

[cube]

Would I be remiss to point out Germany never wins in Russia? (Brest-Litovsk treaty a temporary aside) #historynerd

VW, BMW, and Daimler have cars assembled in Russia and new factories coming up.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I think Firmino should be starting this match, with his high work rate. The Serbs are holding up well so far, and have shown an ability to pas the ball around in Brazil's half.



The problem is, this narrative has been generated on the backs of two wins against two relative minnows. England did reasonably well but were not really tested.

The second England play badly or are stymied by a good opponent (like, say, Belgium...) the knives will be out and "proper football men" in TV studios around the nation will be explaining at length how Southgate got it all wrong, the players aren't up for it etc etc.

The fact remains that England are probably just about a quarterfinal-quality team, and there are teams in this tournament like Croatia and Belgium who are arguably better - but not loaded with the same level of expectation. Southgate will need to manage expectations when results don't go England's way.

Oh, agreed.

They have yet to be seriously tested as a team by a good team, but I would expect Southgate to have done his homework diligently to the best of his ability in that regard.

But I think he has done an excellent job in managing expectations to date, and also in crafting a good-humoured, well-knitted together squad of players into a competent team that aren't suffering while playing for England.

Privately, I'd imagine Southgate will be quietly content with reaching the quarter-finals, ecstatic if he gets to the semis.

However, even if the team doesn't get that far (and yes, Belgium and Croatia are both very good), he has transformed the atmosphere and environment of the way in which the England team operates, and that is no bad thing.
[doublepost=1530124763][/doublepost]Brazil have just scored against Serbia, - so that is 1-0 - and, in the other game, Switzerland have just taken the lead against Costa Rica, (against the run of play) by a goal to nil.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Neymar just go fouled and rolled, I think, at least three full revolutions on the ground. Maybe four. We need to hook him up to a generator, he could serve as a new form of renewable energy. Just kick him once and he'll keep the lights on a for a whole day.

...and five minutes later we get another dive from this fella.

I think I will grow to despise him as much as I do Crispy Ronaldo.

Oh, agreed.

They have yet to be seriously tested as a team by a good team, but I would expect Southgate to have done his homework diligently to the best of his ability in that regard.

But I think he has done an excellent job in managing expectations to date, and also in crafting a good-humoured, well-knitted together squad of players into a competent team that aren't suffering while playing for England.

Privately, I'd imagine Southgate will be quietly content with reaching the quarter-finals, ecstatic if he gets to the semis.

However, even if the team doesn't get that far (and yes, Belgium and Croatia are both very good), he has transformed the atmosphere and environment of the way in which the England team operates, and that is no bad thing.

I agree that Southgate has created a good atmosphere around the squad, has been level-headed and deft with the press, and is surely a realist who knows this team is good but not a real contender (perhaps a dark horse), but is also able to get his players to dream big and go as far as possible.

But the English press and a segment of the fans are past-masters in self-destructive entitlement, so he's definitely up against it.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Neymar just go fouled and rolled, I think, at least three full revolutions on the ground. Maybe four. We need to hook him up to a generator, he could serve as a new form of renewable energy. Just kick him once and he'll keep the lights on a for a whole day.

...and five minutes later we get another dive from this fella.

To be fair it looked like he’d picked up a rather nasty eye injury when the Serb player touched his shoulder.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Neymar just go fouled and rolled, I think, at least three full revolutions on the ground. Maybe four. We need to hook him up to a generator, he could serve as a new form of renewable energy. Just kick him once and he'll keep the lights on a for a whole day.

...and five minutes later we get another dive from this fella.

I think I will grow to despise him as much as I do Crispy Ronaldo.



I agree that Southgate has created a good atmosphere around the squad, has been level-headed and deft with the press, and is surely a realist who knows this team is good but not a real contender (perhaps a dark horse), but is also able to get his players to dream big and go as far as possible.

But the English press and a segment of the fans are past-masters in self-destructive entitlement, so he's definitely up against it.

Ah, well, the English tabloid press (delusional) and the more ridiculous section of the fans (likewise, delusional and vindictive when fairy tales don't come to pass) are part of the constant background noise of England performing at a major championship.

However, irrespective of how far they progress (and things could break for them) one thing I think I can predict is that they will not embarrass themselves either on or off the pitch. And that - quite seriously - represents impressive progress.

Re Neymar: It may sound like heresy, but I would love to see Brazil beaten, defeated, fail to qualify, and - gifted and all though he may be as a player - I share your sentiments; I cannot abide the git.

 

[bmac4]

Oh, agreed.

They have yet to be seriously tested as a team by a good team, but I would expect Southgate to have done his homework diligently to the best of his ability in that regard.

But I think he has done an excellent job in managing expectations to date, and also in crafting a good-humoured, well-knitted together squad of players into a competent team that aren't suffering while playing for England.

Privately, I'd imagine Southgate will be quietly content with reaching the quarter-finals, ecstatic if he gets to the semis.

However, even if the team doesn't get that far (and yes, Belgium and Croatia are both very good), he has transformed the atmosphere and environment of the way in which the England team operates, and that is no bad thing.
[doublepost=1530124763][/doublepost]Brazil have just scored against Serbia, - so that is 1-0 - and, in the other game, Switzerland have just taken the lead against Costa Rica, (against the run of play) by a goal to nil.

I actually think England are better then just a Quarter final. I think they might be up there with Belgium and Croatia. I think they work well as a team, and could actually do something special. I know it’s hard to see as an Englishman, but from the outside I see them as pretty freaking good.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

And Costa Rica have equalised against Switzerland. One-all there and a match that is a contest where victory is not a foreign conclusion for either team.

Brazil still lead Serbia by a goal to nil.

 

[cube]

Kia had a discount of $250 for each Mexican goal and now they changed it to Korean goals.

If Mexico had won 1-0, Korea would have qualified instead of Sweden.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

So, two all between Switzerland and Costa Rica - who deserved at least a point, - in what was a genuine and entertaining match, even though, on paper, nothing would really affect the outcome of who would qualify for the next round.

Costa Rica played for pride, and can return home, heads held high.

Elsewhere, Brazil defeated Serbia by two goals to nil.

To be honest, much though I would have loved to have seen Brazil defeated (and I hope someone, somewhere hammers them, I am not a fan of the current phalanx of central or south American teams), Serbia lacked the firepower and simply weren't good enough to have been able to accomplish that.

 

[cube]

Germany beat Sweden
Sweden beat Mexico
Mexico beat Korea
Korea beat Germany

Was this the real Group of Death?

 

[cube]

 

[pachyderm]

yay!

 

[cube]

Brazil won in 2002.

 

[0388631]

England squaring off against Belgium. Wouldn't hold your breath if I were a three lions supporter.

Neymar just go fouled and rolled, I think, at least three full revolutions on the ground. Maybe four. We need to hook him up to a generator, he could serve as a new form of renewable energy. Just kick him once and he'll keep the lights on a for a whole day.

How about a battery torture device to his balls?


Edit: Assuming he has any. Don't think I've seen such diva behavior since Diana Ross was tearing up the 70s and 80s.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

England squaring off against Belgium. Wouldn't hold your breath if I were a three lions supporter.

Oddly enough, for the first time since the mid 1990s, I am cautiously - or guardedly - optimistic about England; I like the fact that the squad are playing as a squad, and that they haven't embarrassed themselves on or off the pitch since the tournament started.

And this is something I would expect to continue; I like the ethos that Gareth Southgate has instilled in the squad.

Moreover, as they have already qualified for the knock-out stages, they don't actually need to win against Belgium, although it would be a huge boost, psychologically, if they mange to do so; even a draw would be a good result.

In any case, I'd imagine that Southgate will see this as an opportunity to see - and test - how the squad he names tonight will actually cope with a serious challenge, and accordingly, will - or should - draw some useful lessons from that.

...


.....

Edit: Assuming he has any. Don't think I've seen such diva behavior since Diana Ross was tearing up the 70s and 80s.

Oh, to my mind, our mutual friend Master Ronaldo runs him pretty close for narcissistic diva dramatics.

 

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

Oddly enough, for the first time since the mid 1990s, I am cautiously - or guardedly - optimistic about England; I like the fact that the squad are playing as a squad, and that they haven't embarrassed themselves on or off the pitch since the tournament started.

And this is something I would expect to continue; I like the ethos that Gareth Southgate has instilled in the squad.

I'm not a football fan, but I do share your cautious optimism for this team.

Moreover, as they have already qualified for the knock-out stages, they don't actually need to win against Belgium, although it would be a huge boost, psychologically, if they mange to do so; even a draw would be a good result.

In nay case, I'd imagine that Southgate will see this as an opportunity to see - and test - how the squad he names tonight will actually cope with a serious challenge, and accordingly, will - or should - draw some useful lessons from that.

My (perhaps uninformed) take on the Southgate approach / ethos is that he favours attacking play and striving to win each match, rather than get one goal up and then trying to defend that lead. I certainly prefer watching a more attacking style of play.

I seem to recall reading a statistical analysis few World Cups ago that said that teams that win tournaments (Euro / World Cups) win their matches, not just their groups. Trite and simplistic as that sounds it seems to have been a pretty good rule of thumb for seeing who'll end up in the final. I'd like to see us play for a win tonight.

That said, coming in to this tournament, Fifa ranked Belgium as 5th in the world (with only a few points in it between those ranked 3rd, 4th and 5th), whereas we were 11th. I anticipate the Belgians will go into this match feeling smurfy about their prospects. I'm hoping that our guys will hold it together and keep up the good work.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I'm not a football fan, but I do share your cautious optimism for this team.



My (perhaps uninformed) take on the Southgate approach / ethos is that he favours attacking play and striving to win each match, rather than get one goal up and then trying to defend that lead. I certainly prefer watching a more attacking style of play.

I seem to recall reading a statistical analysis few World Cups ago that said that teams that win tournaments (Euro / World Cups) win their matches, not just their groups. Trite and simplistic as that sounds it seems to have been a pretty good rule of thumb for seeing who'll end up in the final. I'd like to see us play for a win tonight.

That said, coming in to this tournament, Fifa ranked Belgium as 5th in the world (with only a few points in it between those ranked 3rd, 4th and 5th), whereas we were 11th. I anticipate the Belgians will go into this match feeling smurfy about their prospects. I'm hoping that our guys will hold it together and keep up the good work.

Agreed with all that you have said, but - apart from approaches to football - Southgate has engendered a positive ethos and serious work ethic in the squad, and they seem to be enjoying themselves as well. Taken together, that is no mean achievement, especially when one considers some of the other tournaments that England embarrassed themselves in, by their conduct off the pitch (managers included, occasionally) and their play on it.

Under Southgate, here are no 'stars' in the team - not even Harry Kane, though that may change afterwards, depending on how well England proceed through the rest of the tournament, - that the team exists to service - and that is not to criticise Rooney's work ethic for England which was always impressive.

Instead, Southgate has put a lot of effort into the construction of a squad and a collective identity.

Irrespective of tonight's result - and I'd like to see them fight for a win - Southgate has done well with the squad, managing expectations intelligently among media and public, ensuring that they have conducted themselves properly, on an doff the pitch, while ensuring that bearing the crest of the three lions on you team shirt is not a psychologically inhibiting or paralysing burden.

 

[pachyderm]

Oddly enough, for the first time since the mid 1990s, I am cautiously - or guardedly - optimistic about England; I like the fact that the squad are playing as a squad, and that they haven't embarrassed themselves on or off the pitch since the tournament started.

And this is something I would expect to continue; I like the ethos that Gareth Southgate has instilled in the squad.

Moreover, as they have already qualified for the knock-out stages, they don't actually need to win against Belgium, although it would be a huge boost, psychologically, if they mange to do so; even a draw would be a good result.

In nay case, I'd imagine that Southgate will see this as an opportunity to see - and test - how the squad he names tonight will actually cope with a serious challenge, and accordingly, will - or should - draw some useful lessons from that.

...

ME TOO!

I like their chances. Two of the teams I'd like to see do really well.

Ideally, for me anyway, they'd meet up later in the WC but here goes nothing.

 

[cube]

Germany iPhone market share: 100%

Wrong display

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Irrespective of tonight's result - and I'd like to see them fight for a win - Southgate has done well with the squad, managing expectations intelligently among media and public, ensuring that they have conducted themselves properly, on an doff the pitch, while ensuring that bearing the crest of the three lions on you team shirt is not a psychologically inhibiting or paralysing burden.

Southgate faces his toughest decision yet against Belgium. If he wins the match (and pardon me for sounding cynical) he all but guarantees a quarterfinal exit to Brazil, assuming England can beat their Round of 16 opponents. (of course, if Southgate were to steer England past Brazil they'd still be singing his name a hundred years hence...and you could argue that it will be hard to criticize Southgate for getting knocked out by Brazil unless it's a 7-1 or some such)

On the other hand, if he loses the match, the press and "bad" fans will turn on him - BUT England will be granted a more realistic path to the semifinals, where I am guessing they would face Spain or Croatia.

Both managers have indicated that they will change their squads, so this is likely to be a lame-duck match, where the loser gets a valuable prize but also loses momentum, risks a loss in morale, and will suffer the vitriol of the armchair pundits and foam-at-the-mouth fans. The winner faces a tougher path forward.

The "brave", but possibly naive choice would simply be to try to win every game in the tournament - if you're good enough to win the world cup you should be able to do this. The "clever" choice would be to make sure to get dumped into the easier group - but this could backfire horribly if one of those "easier" opponents knocks you out.

What to do?

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Southgate faces his toughest decision yet against Belgium. If he wins the match (and pardon me for sounding cynical) he all but guarantees a quarterfinal exit to Brazil, assuming England can beat their Round of 16 opponents. (of course, if Southgate were to steer England past Brazil they'd still be singing his name a hundred years hence...and you could argue that it will be hard to criticize Southgate for getting knocked out by Brazil unless it's a 7-1 or some such)

On the other hand, if he loses the match, the press and "bad" fans will turn on him - BUT England will be granted a more realistic path to the semifinals, where I am guessing they would face Spain or Croatia.

Both managers have indicated that they will change their squads, so this is likely to be a lame-duck match, where the loser gets a valuable prize but also loses momentum, risks a loss in morale, and will suffer the vitriol of the armchair pundits and foam-at-the-mouth fans. The winner faces a tougher path forward.

The "brave", but possibly naive choice would simply be to try to win every game in the tournament - if you're good enough to win the world cup you should be able to do this. The "clever" choice would be to make sure to get dumped into the easier group - but this could backfire horribly if one of those "easier" opponents knocks you out.

What to do?

Hm.

I assume that a draw (on account of the number of bookings, or, rather, assuming that the difference between the bookings handed out to each team doesn't change over the course of this game) would still leave England ahead of Belgium, - as they are at the moment - unless the 'fair play' charts change.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Senegal are looking better than Colombia at the moment, but it's still 0-0 with a full half plus stoppage left. Both matches have been a bit dull, really.

Hm.

I assume that a draw (on account of the number of bookings, or, rather, assuming that the difference between the bookings handed out to each team doesn't change over the course of this game) would still leave England ahead of Belgium, - as they are at the moment - unless the 'fair play' charts change.

As I implied above, both managers appear to be hedging their bets - they will play a rotated squad and try to get a result with that. Southgate frankly can't afford to have Kane pick up an injury or fatigue at this stage, so so starting Vardy makes total sense. He's a fast, scrappy so-and-so, England's Diego Costa, so toss him at the Belgians with Rashford and see what happens. Curious to see how the midfield battle shapes up.