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The 2017-2018 Football Thread

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c0ppo said:
Penalties are part of that game. So are corner kicks luck as well? Or free kicks in dangerous areas?
I'm curious, where do you draw the line between skill and luck?
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Very fair point and very well made. Well said.

For all that England scored only two goals from open play during the tournament, I was delighted to see how seriously - and professionally - the squad, team and manager took set pieces, and this was something that they had clearly practiced extensively in advance.
 
Centaurr said:
you tell me, you are the World cup future Champions 🙂
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So no answer? 🙄

Scepticalscribe said:
For all that England scored only two goals from open play during the tournament, I was delighted to see how seriously - and professionally - the squad, team and manager took set pieces, and this was something that they had clearly practiced extensively in advance.
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Indeed. I never saw a team that good in set pieces. Never.
And after every free kick, or corner kick, I was afraid that Croatia would concede a goal. Was it luck that England was that good from set pieces, or was it that Southgate practiced and developed that part of the game so well? Was it luck that England finally won on penalties, or was it preparations and (obviously) good training done by Southgate?

Of course luck plays part in all of this. But luck or lack thereof is a part of everything! But not the main ingredient. Only people who haven't achieved anything or very little call out for bad luck all the time!
 
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c0ppo said:
Penalties are part of that game. So are corner kicks luck as well? Or free kicks in dangerous areas?
I'm curious, where do you draw the line between skill and luck?
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Well, I don't think I've ever seen a team win on either skill or luck alone.

Take Pavard's incredible volley against Argentina. It takes a lot of skill to strike a ball like that, and Pavard is obviously a very skillful player - it is clear that he meant to do what he was doing. On the other hand, if you could build a machine that could repeatedly serve Pavard that same ball, how many times would he manage that sweet of a shot??? There are elements of both luck and skill in that moment.

When a player takes any action during a match - dribbling, making a pass, taking up a certain position, anticipating an opponent's move, even taking a dive - it is the result of a rapid series of choices based on a combination of conscious thought and instinct, both of which are seasoned by experience. They never do it exactly the same way either. Football can be a game of seconds, or inches, and those tiny variations can make a big difference in outcomes. This is most obvious at the elite level, where all the players are skilled, and therefore the difference in skill between players is pretty small. The margin of victory is generally making the right choices, and maybe getting a tiny little boost from good fortune on top of that. Pavard meant to strike that volley, but in this case he happened to strike the ball perfectly - something even elite-evel footballers can't do every time.

There is also the question of exploiting luck to its full potential - if you are skillful, you are better placed to capitalize on a piece of good fortune (a lucky bounce, a loose ball, an opponent out of position).

What I am building up to here is to say that the answer to this debate over luck versus is....yes, it's both. Skill alone won't take you to a World Cup final, but skill reduces your reliance on luck for success. Penalty kicks level the playing field somewhat compared with open play, increasing the influence of chance perhaps, but there is still a tremendous amount of skill involved - especially at the World Cup level. There is no doubt in my mind that skill, experience, and planning can make all the difference in a penalty shootout.
 
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Lord Blackadder said:
What about slipping on a loose patch of grass? An incorrect ref decision? A string gust of wind? A beach ball rolling in front of goal 🙂mad🙂?
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Agreed.

Chance, and willpower and guts as well as skill, and experience, (and, perhaps some luck) can all have an effect on the outcome or final result.

I watched Mario Mandzukic stagger off in utter agony - needing help to stumble behind the goal, after his knee met Jordan Pickford's stuff, and also watched, in stupefied awe, that extraordinary white cloud of some strange pain-killing chemical being sprayed onto that same knee as Mandzukic lay prostrate, in clear agony.

And yet, some combination of grit, willpower, skill, and painkilling excellence enabled him - injured knee and all - to score the second goal against England not very long afterwards.
 
Centaurr said:
lol one thing we can all agree on is loving Football! 😀
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Love hate here, at times, to be honest.

There are things about the way that - for example - international tournaments have been organised - that I find profoundly depressing.

Not to mention the disproportionate power of the Premiership, (vis.a.vis other divisions), the role played by Sky, and so on.

But, yes, at its best, it can be wonderfully uplifting.

And I welcome the triumph of decency, thoughtfulness, modesty, and intelligence, as represented by the improbable appointment of Gareth Southgate as England's manager (and the impressive values he has inculcated in the young team he has managed).

This team and manager are worthy role models, and I haven't felt able to say that since Bobby Robson managed England almost three decades ago.
 
Apple fanboy said:
Beer and wine together? I don't envy your head! I thought White might be slang for some snack or something!
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Never had those issues. When I was in my 20s and a much heavier drinker, I'd get strange looks from mates, strangers or even the barman when I ordered a plethora of drinks and had them over the course of a few hours. Whiskey and vodka, wine and beer, wine and whiskey, etc. don't give me headaches or nausea.
 
Zenithal said:
Never had those issues. When I was in my 20s and a much heavier drinker, I'd get strange looks from mates, strangers or even the barman when I ordered a plethora of drinks and had them over the course of a few hours. Whiskey and vodka, wine and beer, wine and whiskey, etc. don't give me headaches or nausea.
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Lucky you. In my teens and twenties I could drink as I wanted. These days I can feel bad for a couple of days on just a few beers.
 
Apple fanboy said:
Lucky you. In my teens and twenties I could drink as I wanted. These days I can feel bad for a couple of days on just a few beers.
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Hand on heart, worst thing that occurred to me after drinking too much and to unhealthy amounts was taking it out via oral projectile on a rozzer's car. Otherwise typical dehydration is what bugs me. Sometimes heart burn. Tend to nurse 4-5 liters of water the next day with electrolyte powder.
 
I wouldn’t say skill creates luck, rather the abilities to see the opportunities that opens up.
It’s not some random luck. It’s a skill to see ways open and play them. As more skill, as more opportunities you create and can take advantage of.

We are actually talking about the definition of luck, skill, how it plays out.
How do you define luck. Some random lottery? Or how do you see it?
Or some higher power that puts the ball on a skillful players feet. Maybe change direction with a screwed ball, talent, luck or the wind? Some luck fairy?
For what it’s worth how did even Pelé or Messi got their talents. Or anyone else in any field for that matter? Maybe their mother’s went to a witch and asked for some magic, or prayed, or combination of dad and mother that played out really well.

Whatever, it’s nothing random with it. Deserved dharma? God’s gift? Pelé spoke of that.
But don’t the gifted ones work hard with their gifts? Probably harder then the average guy, right?
Or do you think they just had some random luck, all the way?
Or what about the guy that was in a bad car crash and could walk out of it alive? Some random luck?

No I don’t believe in luck such as that. I think luck is a word that are used when you can’t explain how something fortunate and good happened.
But I believe there is always a deeper explanation to all of what you call luck.
How people got their talent in the 1st place, how they learn about their skillfullness, how they honed it to abilities, being at the right place at the right moment, and taking advantage of “the flow” of skillfullness.

Talented people are not lucky, they work hard, and opportunities present themselves.
The random guy that never hit a goal, ever, maybe found a fourleaf-clover before his 1st game at 10, and made success.

And Zenithal was even lucky as he could drink a lot in his youth too.


Whatever, I have work to do 😀
 
Apple fanboy said:
Beer and wine together? I don't envy your head! I thought White might be slang for some snack or something!
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No, I assumed (correctly as it transpired) that @Zenithal had meant white wine.

Zenithal said:
Never had those issues. When I was in my 20s and a much heavier drinker, I'd get strange looks from mates, strangers or even the barman when I ordered a plethora of drinks and had them over the course of a few hours. Whiskey and vodka, wine and beer, wine and whiskey, etc. don't give me headaches or nausea.
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While I am most partial to my booze, as @Apple fanboy can attest, I will imbibe, sip, savour, quaff, enjoy the products of The Grape or The Grain on a given night, but never both. Not now.

I do recall student hangovers, though. Wincing through a haze of remembered pain, but yet recalling the sheer pleasure of those uninhibited times when one could consume as much as one liked/wanted in extraordinary quantity, in what always seemed to be congenial company.
 
Scepticalscribe said:
While I am most partial to my booze, as @Apple fanboy can attest, I will imbibe, sip, savour, quaff, enjoy the products of The Grape or The Grain on a given night, but never both. Not now.

I do recall student hangovers, though. Wincing through a haze of remembered pain, and recalling the sheer pleasure of those uninhibited days.
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Yes, tends to surprise people who don't know me. I have a higher tolerance for alcohol these days than I did when I was younger, and I seldom drink more than 2-3x a week now, just once during the summer.


But I do remember hangovers from my youth. Was less PC in those days, obviously, and sometimes you'd see a professor or two in a pub slamming back drinks with students or other faculty. Anyway, just remembered I bought some organic pretzels last week.
 
Zenithal said:
Yes, tends to surprise people who don't know me. I have a higher tolerance for alcohol these days than I did when I was younger, and I seldom drink more than 2-3x a week now, just once during the summer.


But I do remember hangovers from my youth. Was less PC in those days, obviously, and sometimes you'd see a professor or two in a pub slamming back drinks with students or other faculty. Anyway, just remembered I bought some organic pretzels last week.
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As a student, yes, I do recall slamming back beverages with professors (those long intellectual discussions in pubs, sometimes continued in someone's flat, or house, later on, over whisky or something else, sometimes - but not often, even - mine).

Later, as an academic, I did indeed have some drinks with students on occasion, especially if I had chaired a meeting, or adjudicated a student society's debate, or supported some such student activity, but I used to limit myself to three beers (or glasses of wine) when drinking with the students and then head home.
 
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