The 2017-2018 Football Thread

[Scepticalscribe]

are you Moriarty...?

That sentence (typed in a hurry this morning) should have read "No, firstly, Antonio Conte is too elegant and stylish for me to wish to see such punishment inflicted on him". Now, as for the rest of the sentence - well, that still reads as it was originally written.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Big win for Manchester United; they are all but guaranteed a Champions League spot now. They still didn't look very convincing, but Mourinho got his result (which in his mind is all that matters). He was also unusually gracious with Conte - though I suspect that, had he failed to win, he would not have been so nice.

Nothing surprising about the league cup final. Arsenal are struggling at the moment, even in the one-off matches. Man City have all the money in the world, and they have given Pep time to work his magic. A double seems almost certain now, and the Champions League title is not out of the question.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I don't mind Arsenal suffering defeat at the hands of a clearly better team. I do, however, object to a display of spineless surrender.

 

[Silencio]

Looks like both Mourinho and Conte have moved on from the previous unpleasantries. It's the best thing for all parties involved.

Everyone's been talking about Mourinho versus Pogba. Should we start talking more about Conte versus Hazard? Withdrawing him so early in such an important match must have some implications.

Pogba himself still didn't seem fully with it yesterday. Too many lapses in concentration and effort. Thankfully Lukaku had a fantastic match to pick everyone up.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Everyone's been talking about Mourinho versus Pogba. Should we start talking more about Conte versus Hazard? Withdrawing him so early in such an important match must have some implications.

The difference is that Conte already has one foot out the door of Chelsea, whereas at Man Utd the official word is still that Mourinho is going to stay long-term and become the next dynasty builder...which is ludicrous, but still the official word.

Pogba is playing well below his potential. It is Mou's responsibility to rectify that - although it's more likely he will continue to blame and punish Pogba until he either improves or is sold. Conte, on the other hand, knows he will be gone next season, and that he is unlikely to win any silverware this season, so he has a lot less skin in the game.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I don't mind Arsenal suffering defeat at the hands of a clearly better team. I do, however, object to a display of spineless surrender.

Well you did as well as we did against Liverpool this weekend.
Let's hope you can win the Europa league, because it's your only hope for a CL spot or silverware this season.
[doublepost=1519668997][/doublepost]

The difference is that Conte already has one foot out the door of Chelsea, whereas at Man Utd the official word is still that Mourinho is going to stay long-term and become the next dynasty builder...which is ludicrous, but still the official word.

Pogba is playing well below his potential. It is Mou's responsibility to rectify that - although it's more likely he will continue to blame and punish Pogba until he either improves or is sold. Conte, on the other hand, knows he will be gone next season, and that he is unlikely to win any silverware this season, so he has a lot less skin in the game.

Conte at the start of 2019 at Chelsea- no chance.
Mourino at Man Utd at the end of 2019- no chance.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

The difference is that Conte already has one foot out the door of Chelsea, whereas at Man Utd the official word is still that Mourinho is going to stay long-term and become the next dynasty builder...which is ludicrous, but still the official word.

Pogba is playing well below his potential. It is Mou's responsibility to rectify that - although it's more likely he will continue to blame and punish Pogba until he either improves or is sold. Conte, on the other hand, knows he will be gone next season, and that he is unlikely to win any silverware this season, so he has a lot less skin in the game.

Actually, despite last season's triumphs, Conte never struck me as particularly happy in London; I seem to recall that his wife (who was studying) and family remained in Italy last season, - he travelled frequently to see them - and may only have joined him belatedly and reluctantly this season, with no real desire to remain.

Well you did as well as we did against Liverpool this weekend.
Let's hope you can win the Europa league, because it's your only hope for a CL spot or silverware this season.
[doublepost=1519668997][/doublepost]
Conte at the start of 2019 at Chelsea- no chance.
Mourino at Man Utd at the end of 2019- no chance.

Unfortunately, to be quite candid, I cannot really see us winning the Europa League.

 

[Silencio]

The difference is that Conte already has one foot out the door of Chelsea, whereas at Man Utd the official word is still that Mourinho is going to stay long-term and become the next dynasty builder...which is ludicrous, but still the official word.

Wouldn't surprise me at all to see Hazard leave, either.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Actually, despite last season's triumphs, Conte never struck me as particularly happy in London; I seem to recall that his wife (who was studying) and family remained in Italy last season, - he travelled frequently to see them - and may only have joined him belatedly and reluctantly this season, with no real desire to remain.



Unfortunately, to be quite candid, I cannot really see us winning the Europa League.

Well no neither can I.

 

[Alphazoid]

The players have stopped playing for Arsene and the goals have dried up. Wenger is now further transferring from a respectable manager to a laughing stock/easy target for media, rival clubs, and even insiders at his own club.

But his stubbornness is what has landed him in his current position.

In other news Neymar has fractured his metatarsal

 

[Scepticalscribe]

The players have stopped playing for Arsene and the goals have dried up. Wenger is now further transferring from a respectable manager to a laughing stock/easy target for media, rival clubs, and even insiders at his own club.

But his stubbornness is what has landed him in his current position.

In other news Neymar has fractured his metatarsal

No, I think that the the players collapse too soon in certain situations and cease to offer a challenge, or wish to fight for a result, - whatever his other issues, nobody could accuse Sanchez of lacking fighting spirit and a competitive instinct - defence has been an increasing problem for around at least half a decade, (that is Mr Wenger's stubborn blind spot) and certain skilled players go missing at times and are extraordinarily - and frustratingly - inconsistent.

I don't see Mr Wenger as a laughing stock - that is too facile an analysis; rather, I see him as mulishly and foolishly stubborn in refusing to attempt to rectify his clear problems in defence - and someone whose radical and innovative ways have been studied, and emulated and - by now - surpassed by a younger generation of managers in the two decades since he arrived at Highbury and introduced broccoli to the diet of a steak-and-chips and buckets of lager generation of players.

 

[pachyderm]

...

I don't see Mr Wenger as a laughing stock - that is too facile an analysis; rather, I see him as mulishly and foolishly stubborn in refusing to attempt to rectify his clear problems in defence - and someone whose radical and innovative ways have been studied, and emulated and - by now - surpassed by a younger generation of managers in the two decades since he arrived at Highbury and introduced broccoli to the diet of a steak-and-chips and buckets of lager generation of players.

If I had nickel for all teams/footy programs that have named themselves "Arsenal", or the "Gunners", that I've coached against I could probably buy all of us in this thread a round or two.
The reason they chose that name? They liked their playing style.

I can see the fans wanting younger blood. Most of their rivals have made a change.

To me he has simply hit a rough spot. It might be the talent he has available. Not that they aren't good, but they haven't found the consistency they need. My youngest is a fan of theirs so I've seen them play many a time. I've seen matches where I've said to him, "How are they not unbeaten?". I've also seen matches where I've asked him, "How did they get themselves dressed? Do they have help? Do they know they are supposed to want to keep the ball?".

I'm no expert but I know quality when I see it and I know slop. I feel I've seen more uncoordinated efforts from them recently and/or games where they simply aren't good enough. Sunday's match was the latter. But then again who could have faired any better vs City?

I agree the game has changed but I don't think it's passed him by, not yet anyway.

 

[Alphazoid]

If the players aren't delivering, the buck ends with the manager. He's the one who has to motivate/coach them. To his credit he has bought defenders...i don't even think personnel is the problem. They are just badly organized and coached which again ends with the manager. City or even United don't have better defenders. They're just better coached. The only team with the best defensive personnel is Spurs and even their best defender isn't playing.

Wigan dumped City out of the FA Cup and you can't tell me they have 'better' defenders than Arsenal. No they just came prepared and with desire

There is no hunger or desire, everything is nice and comfortable and the manager has to take the blame for that. How you can turn up for a cup final against the best team in the league and just surrender from the 1st minute is beyond me. City didn't even have to leave second gear to win.

I hear Marco Silva and Ancelotti or on the market...the board might want to take a look...not that they will.

I used to watch Arsenal matches for entertainment now i can predict the outcome 80% of the time which is why i watch other teams instead.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Unfortunately, to be quite candid, I cannot really see us winning the Europa League.

There are some pretty tough opponents left in the competition - Atletico Madrid are probably the favorites to win it and I can't see Arsenal beating them, even if Arsenal can get past Milan.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

This is the worst version of Arsenal I've seen in the last 10 years. Supine, and less than the sum of their parts. It's no disgrace to lose to Man City, but they hardly put up a fight.

Getting rid of Arsene will merely expose how badly the club are being run by the owners (at least in terms of being able to build and employ a competitive football team), but the manager always goes down first.

Surely Wenger will not last past the summer?

 

[Apple fanboy]

This is the worst version of Arsenal I've seen in the last 10 years. Supine, and less than the sum of their parts. It's no disgrace to lose to Man City, but they hardly put up a fight.

Getting rid of Arsene will merely expose how badly the club are being run by the owners (at least in terms of being able to build and employ a competitive football team), but the manager always goes down first.

Surely Wenger will not last past the summer?

I agree. He's off for sure. The fans (well except one or two), have had enough. Not helped by Spurs being the better side consistently in recent years.

 

[Alphazoid]

He will see out his contract for sure. Don't underestimate him.

The only thing that's looking likelier is that the board have to do 'something'. Missing out on CL for 2 successive seasons means the club had dropped its operating profit by 60%. And for a club motivated by income thats a big deal.

Even Chips Keswick has come out and said something has to be done.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

He will see out his contract for sure. Don't underestimate him.

I do think it is likely that when Wenger goes, he will leave by choice and will not be sacked. But he may be persuaded to go before his contract is up.

If Arsenal continue the way they are going things could get a lot worse.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

This is the worst version of Arsenal I've seen in the last 10 years. Supine, and less than the sum of their parts. It's no disgrace to lose to Man City, but they hardly put up a fight.

Getting rid of Arsene will merely expose how badly the club are being run by the owners (at least in terms of being able to build and employ a competitive football team), but the manager always goes down first.

Surely Wenger will not last past the summer?

Unfortunately, there is too much truth in that.

The lack of competitive instinct, of passion, of desire, of hunger, of a wish to fight, really annoys me. As does the brittle spinelessness, and the ease of their collective surrender.

Where is their damned pride?

And, unlike many of the (quite entitled) fans of Arsenal, I'm not about to board the "sack Mr Wenger" express; once he has departed, I would expect Arsenal to wobble for a few years. However, equally, I am not a fan of some of these exquisitely talented and delightfully gifted elegant players who go missing for long stretches during fighting fixtures.

But the lack of organisation and will to contest - and sheer footballing spineless stupidity - in defence is beginning to irk me. This is not a new lack; Arsenal have been increasingly poor in defence for an absolute age and have done little to address, let alone remedy, this glaring deficiency.

Moreover, they lack leadership on the pitch - and, whatever else one could say about Sanchez - one could not fault his passion or competitiveness; he did care about the outcome of a match.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Solid win for Liverpool today. Newcastle played a decent match but weren't able to create enough going forward and Liverpool punished their few mistakes. Salah continues to bang them in. Oxlade-Chamberlain had a fine assist, is playing quite well, and the defense, while not perfect, seems to finally have settled down a bit. Robertson and Alexander-Arnold have been real revelations, and van Dijk is more or less working out as well as expected.

Salah was hacked down just outside the box in the dying moments of the match - the Newcastle defender, Lascelles, should have been sent off as he was the last man between Salah and the keeper, but the linesman called no foul. Klopp went absolutely ballistic on the sideline (shocker!). It didn't change the match but a bit of a let-off for Newcastle in terms of avoiding a ban for Lascelles.

West Brom and West Ham both lose again - huge win for Swansea to today, they looked gone earlier this season but Carlos Carvalhal has completely turned things around for the Swans.

 

[Apple fanboy]

A depressing day to be a Hammer. I'm not sure we will stay up.
A makeshift defence didn't help, but there's no excuse for surrendering to a team like Swansea and expecting to stay up.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Toronto 0-2 Columbus

Columbus shut out Toronto in their own house in what may be their final season opener. This is going to be a bittersweet season for me...despite the setbacks in Austin the club ownership are still officially committed to moving the Crew out of Columbus and no concrete alternatives have surfaced.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Really need Arsenal to beat Brighton today.
Keeps us in touch with them.

But I'd not bank on it.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Really need Arsenal to beat Brighton today.
Keeps us in touch with them.

But I'd not bank on it.

Well, I wouldn't bank on it either, and the stubbornly mulish refusal of Mr Wenger to address defensive shortcomings and a lack of competitiveness in midfield is epic in its heroic tenacity, but the graceless, arrogant and entitled attitude among some Arsenal fans also annoys me.

The Guardian had a nice - and balanced - piece today on Mr Wenger, well worth reading and thinking about.

This was a team that won the FA Cup last year and came second in the Premiership as recently as two years ago. (And still some Arsenal fans indulged in a whiny sulk).

If and when Mr Wenger departs (and - while I reluctantly accept that there is a right time for everything, I, for one, will miss him) Arsenal will take an age (as Manchester United did) to find their balance, their sense of self, their identity - they will have been defined by the personality and character of an influential individual for over twenty years, much as United was under Mr Ferguson - and - not least - will find it something of a challenge to appoint an adequate replacement, who will fill his shoes, project the same - or a similar - presence and offer the sort of rooted sense of identity and vision and sense of what made Arsenal Arsenal that Mr Wenger at his best used to be able to do.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Well, I wouldn't bank on it either, and the stubbornly mulish refusal of Mr Wenger to address defensive shortcomings and a lack of competitiveness in midfield is epic in its heroic tenacity, but the graceless, arrogant and entitled attitude among some Arsenal fans also annoys me.

The Guardian had a nice - and balanced - piece today on Mr Wenger, well worth reading and thinking about.

This was a team that won the FA Cup last year and came second in the Premiership as recently as two years ago. (And still some Arsenal fans indulged in a whiny sulk).

If and when Mr Wenger departs (and - while I reluctantly accept that there is a right time for everything, I, for one, will miss him) Arsenal will take an age (as Manchester United did) to find their balance, their sense of self, their identity - they will have been defined by the personality and character of an influential individual for over twenty years, much as United was under Mr Ferguson - and - not least - to find an adequate replacement, who will fill his shoes, project the same - or a similar - presence and offer the sort of rooted sense of identity and vision that Mr Wenger at his best used to be able to do.

Hmmm. Not the start either of us were hoping for.