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It's going to be interesting for City next season. So much depends on whether the European ban holds up or not. Either way, they desperately need help in central defense: I don't think even Chris Smalling and Phil Jones would have contrived to mess up a clearance so badly as the one Chelsea gifted to Pulisic yesterday.

Liverpool will also need to manage refreshing their squad a bit, as they don't have a lot of younger players and I'm sure some of their attacking talent will look for new challenges and/or bigger paydays.

I'd feel a lot worse about Liverpool finally winning again if not for a) the utter inevitability of it, and b) United is finally moving in the right direction again. As long as the Los Angeles Dodgers' World Series drought continues, I'm okay.

I would be shocked if Man City's ban were reversed. Though, I'd be less surprised if it were reduced to one season, that seems to happen often with these sorts of things. Man City have the money to ride this all out, but they do have a lot of work to do if they are to stay on top. Pep is not a manager who does full-on rebuild jobs. He comes in, has a go for a few seasons, and then moves on. Not as short-termist as Mourinho, of course, but then again who is?

I am sure Liverpool have a plan for keeping the squad strong, though the pandemic has clearly altered that. Right now the focus is on planning for the future rather than addressing any urgent need. The front three are already being eyed jealously by other clubs and have big value, I have to assume that one of those players at least will go in the next year. Fullback is probably one place where more depth is needed but given Trent and Robertson's form any signings would either be young understudies (as if those two aren't young!) or squad players.
 
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I think that Manchester City underestimated the effects that the departure of Vincent Kompany would have on their team, and on their defence, this season (just as Arsenal - to my mind - were mistaken not to have offered to extend Aaron Ramsey's contract last year).

Liverpool have been superb over the past two seasons, and their outstanding form also overlapped with that of Manchester City, who had been excellent over the previous two seasons, the second of which occurred last season.
 
I think that Manchester City underestimated the effects that the departure of Vincent Kompany would have on their team, and on their defence, this season (just as Arsenal - to my mind - were mistaken not to have offered to extend Aaron Ramsey's contract last year).

Really, four things had to happen for Man City to find themselves in this pickle: 1) Kompany had to leave; 2) Stones and other defenders had to fail to develop as planned; 3) The club had to fail to replace Kompany with another at least solid if not equivalently talented player; 4) Injuries had to further weaken an already suspect defense.

You could argue that's a lot of bad luck, but only the fourth item was entirely out of their control. Man City did not fail in their title bid solely because of their defensive issues, but that was the biggest single factor.
 
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Really, four things had to happen for Man City to find themselves in this pickle: 1) Kompany had to leave; 2) Stones and other defenders had to fail to develop as planned; 3) The club had to fail to replace Kompany with another at least solid if not equivalently talented player; 4) Injuries had to further weaken an already suspect defense.

You could argue that's a lot of bad luck, but only the fourth item was entirely out of their control. Man City did not fail in their title bid solely because of their defensive issue, but they are the biggest single factor.

Agreed: Having allowed Kompany to depart they failed to identify the need to find a adequate replacement.

Actually, even though he had been captain, I suspect that Manchester City completely underestimated the contribution that Kompany had made to the success of the team, and again, entirely failed to realise the enormous gap his departure would leave in defence.

I'd forgotten about Stones: Two years ago, his stock, and reputation - were pretty high, but yes, he has failed to develop as a player - to anything like the level one might have reasonably had cause to expect - since then.

As for injuries, yes, they have suffered some serious injuries to key players, (de Bruyne was out for some time) but so have other teams.

There, the problem lay in not identifying (and seeking replacement remedies) the areas where they were deficient.
 
I've said this before recently, but for all truly successful teams you can name a dominant center back (and usually a goalkeeper as well) who served as the foundation of the defense. You could argue that without Kompany Man City would have conceded the title to Liverpool last season - surely he was worth more than a point on his own over the course of that very tight campaign?
 
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City losing Kompany has had a similar kind of effect in reverse as Van Dijk joining Liverpool. Not only his defensive performances, he also won City that huge game against Leicester last season. Every title winning side needs that imperious centre back.

By the way I've never checked out this part of the forum before. It's so easy to get caught up in the toxicity of social media, where almost no sensible football discussion takes place. Just endless "banter" back and forth. Glad to see some really good posts in here.
 
City losing Kompany has had a similar kind of effect in reverse as Van Dijk joining Liverpool. Not only his defensive performances, he also won City that huge game against Leicester last season. Every title winning side needs that imperious centre back.

By the way I've never checked out this part of the forum before. It's so easy to get caught up in the toxicity of social media, where almost no sensible football discussion takes place. Just endless "banter" back and forth. Glad to see some really good posts in here.

Welcome! The football threads got started way back in the early days or MR. A few of us have kept up the tradition. It's a small space now, but has had the advantage of being far more civil than most of the internet - this is definitely a "banter-free" zone. Always good to see a new poster!
 
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We had a quality centre half once.
BC9E8C9A-E265-40D1-BD89-5841AB8DBFC8.jpeg
 
I've said this before recently, but for all truly successful teams you can name a dominant center back (and usually a goalkeeper as well) who served as the foundation of the defense. You could argue that without Kompany Man City would have conceded the title to Liverpool last season - surely he was worth more than a point on his own over the course of that very tight campaign?

Agreed .

While exceptionally successful teams usually have a quality centre back and - of even greater importance - is that they recruit (or buy, or develop, or grow) a top class goalkeeper.

Manchester United only realised the importance of Peter Schmeichel to the team when they didn't play him, and it cost them; likewise, while the purchase of Virgil van Dijk was of key importance for the construction of a world class team for Liverpool (and I am still irked that Arseal didn't think to bid for him at that time), the replacement of Karius with the purchase of Alisson was of even greater importance.
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City losing Kompany has had a similar kind of effect in reverse as Van Dijk joining Liverpool. Not only his defensive performances, he also won City that huge game against Leicester last season. Every title winning side needs that imperious centre back.

By the way I've never checked out this part of the forum before. It's so easy to get caught up in the toxicity of social media, where almost no sensible football discussion takes place. Just endless "banter" back and forth. Glad to see some really good posts in here.

Welcome; this is a very pleasant part of the forum, and wonderful to see a fresh face and new poster here.
 
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I do agree with many of the comments in this thread but wonder about the significance of key individuals over a strong squad. We (I am a Spurs supporter) have Harry Kane a wonderfully skilled striker but just like Van Dijk in defence for Liverpool it is not enough if they get injured. Strength in depth over superstars? Having it all would be nice as did Man City with all their money but even that did not last. Then there is the anomaly that is / was Leicester City.

It is intriguing what makes a successful squad to win the EPL the balance of strong players in every area across the pitch, back up squad players and of course the coach, backroom staff and leadership at the top level. Not an easy recipe to concoct.

Fair play Liverpool you smashed it this year.
 
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I do agree with many of the comments in this thread but wonder about the significance of key individuals over a strong squad. We (I am a Spurs supporter) have Harry Kane a wonderfully skilled striker but just like Van Dijk in defence for Liverpool it is not enough if they get injured. Strength in depth over superstars? Having it all would be nice as did Man City with all their money but even that did not last. Then there is the anomaly that is / was Leicester City.

It is intriguing what makes a successful squad to win the EPL the balance of strong players in every area across the pitch, back up squad players and of course the coach, backroom staff and leadership at the top level. Not an easy recipe to concoct.

Fair play Liverpool you smashed it this year.
I think more important than skill or ability in a player is attitude. A superstar who thinks they are the best player in the league and has little time for his colleagues is not going to help team spirit.
Look at Leicester. They were there together and played exceptionally well. Also you didn’t feel like the players were all trying to sort out their big money move to the next club. In fact when Arsenal tried to buy Vardy he turned them down.
Sadly to many players (and worse, their agents) have their heads turned by the next big thing. Just looking for a signing on fee and big money move.
 
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I do agree with many of the comments in this thread but wonder about the significance of key individuals over a strong squad. We (I am a Spurs supporter) have Harry Kane a wonderfully skilled striker but just like Van Dijk in defence for Liverpool it is not enough if they get injured. Strength in depth over superstars? Having it all would be nice as did Man City with all their money but even that did not last. Then there is the anomaly that is / was Leicester City.

It is intriguing what makes a successful squad to win the EPL the balance of strong players in every area across the pitch, back up squad players and of course the coach, backroom staff and leadership at the top level. Not an easy recipe to concoct.

Fair play Liverpool you smashed it this year.

I would argue that it is neither "key players" nor a strong squad, but a mindset that encourages the players to view themselves as a team, a core part of a collective whole, so that they play for the team, rather than for themselves.

Thus, I think that it is a mixture of key individuals in certain specific positions, who are encouraged to see themselves as part of a team; in other words, in a truly successful team, key players are not allowed to view themselves as "superstars" and insist that the team be built around their needs, or to serve them, but that they themselves - irrespective of how gifted and talented they are - are a part, a cog, in a supremely functioning whole.

Having said that, while you need a strong squad, there are certain positions - I would submit that goalie is one - where a top team - or a team with ambitions to be a top team - must have an outstanding player in that position.

While van Dijk was massively important for Liverpool, until they sorted out the goalkeeper position, and recruited somebody genuinely excellent - which they did with the arrival of Alison - as a team, they still fell short of consistent excellence.

Re Spurs, I think that they have some superb players in some positions, but are stretched too thinly as a squad; in truth, Pochettino - who was an excellent manager - brought them far further than they could reasonably have expected given the resources at their disposal, (after all, they had several top four finishes in the Premiership, and reached the CL final) and made it clear over a number of years that the club needed more strength in depth and that the squad needed additional players, which meant a greater outlay on the part of the owners. Actually, I think that Pochettino brought Spurs about as far as he possibly could, and further progress could only come with greater investment in the team which the owners were not willing to contemplate or undertake.

Leicester were a classic case where the sum of the whole was greater than the sum of the individual parts (though some of them were very talented), and where the players played with passion and belief for each other and for the team. They were also fortunate that - for a variety of reasons - the year they won the Premiership none of the teams likely to challenge them were a completed project, all were some sort of a work-in-progress, or had unaddressed or unsolved problems. However, that in no way takes away from Leicester's stunning achievement, they seized their opportunity, and - from Christmas, were never below second place, and led from the front for weeks before they were crowed champions as worthy winners.

Re strength in depth, such strength in depth is usually the result of serious strategic thought on the part of a gifted and thoughtful manager. Moreover, the creation and crafting of a team that manages to achieve this, takes the very best managers (Ferguson, Klopp, Guardiola, early Wenger, etc) a few years; this is not done overnight.

Actually, they usually take a year or so to bed themselves in, to take the time to study their own team, to persuade the team to want to improve, want to change, want to become better, and they also study the opposition, and to think about what conditions - training, diet, etc (and what specific players, specific to that team's particular needs, not just a "superstar" who happens to be for sale), what experts, what staff, are required to bring about a substantial, or significant improvement.
 
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Very very good insight thank you and I agree. I think my search is this. Is there a sustainable model for a club to achieve what has been done in the 1960's, 70's and 80's etc or is domination over in our current football climate? Is this an opportunistic age where clubs shoot for a single season 'win' and accept that is enough?

So whatever club you support, accept there is a window of opportunity in a season for glory (whatever that means for your club) and then you will not see it again for several years?
 
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Very very good insight thank you and I agree. I think my search is this. Is there a sustainable model for a club to achieve what has been done in the 1960's, 70's and 80's etc or is domination over in our current football climate? Is this an opportunistic age where clubs shoot for a single season 'win' and accept that is enough?

So whatever club you support, accept there is a window of opportunity in a season for glory (whatever that means for your club) and then you will not see it again for several years?
Very clearly your research did not include Sheffield Wednesday FC lol....
 
Very very good insight thank you and I agree. I think my search is this. Is there a sustainable model for a club to achieve what has been done in the 1960's, 70's and 80's etc or is domination over in our current football climate? Is this an opportunistic age where clubs shoot for a single season 'win' and accept that is enough?

So whatever club you support, accept there is a window of opportunity in a season for glory (whatever that means for your club) and then you will not see it again for several years?

Thank you.

To answer your question, in a word, no.

The best teams at the moment - Manchester City, Liverpool - have both been superb for two seasons, not one.

Two years ago, City broke all records when they won the Premiership; they achieved the second highest points total ever last year, with Liverpool - who had also won the Champion's League, a mere point behind them, undefeated all season, and having amassed the third highest points total ever, and yet, not even won the Premiership.

Remember, Klopp took at least two years of observation and thought before the pieces began to come together in his vision of what Liverpool ought to be as a team. Remember, too, Guardiola's first season at Manchester City: There was idiotic and uninformed mocking from some in the media and from people who should have known better, that this supposed highflier, had achieved next to nothing.

To me, it was obvious that they were observing, learning, thinking (and winning the players over to their vision).

Actually, along with @Apple fanboy's excellent points about "attitude" (for, the attitude of some "superstars" - who are emphatically not 'team players' - leaves a lot to be desired) - the other key is that a superb manager needs to be even both time (that is, several years, at the bare minimum, at least two years) and resources (not just money for players, certain key players ear-marked for certain specific positions, but for facilities, experts, support systems, indeed, even formal education for young academy players) to craft a team that reflects his vision.

Liverpool put no pressure on Klopp - remember he arrived five years ago. Likewise, for his first season, Guardiola was very low-key, and clearly observing what was needed to succeed in the premiership, and how the team that he had at his disposal might achieve that, and what particular players in specific positions needed to be added to the mix.

The danger here is that managers are often seen as a quick fix (especially for a struggling club) and, even when they are not, the values of our current world that prize "instant gratification" mean that many managers are fired long before they have a chance to implement whatever vision that they may have had.

However, there is no such thing as "a (single) sustainable model" because tactics themselves are constantly evolving, and thus, appropriate responses to fresh tactical approaches all inevitably develop as a consequence - and that, in turn, means that players need to develop fresh skills and learn how to deal with new tactical demands.

So, there is "no single sustainable model" because the model itself is constantly changing as the most intelligent managers (and players) seek out news ways of trying to achieve a victory on the football field.
 
Superb is winning the EPL arguably I don't think anyone has been superb for more than one season other than Man City and it has still not been sustainable even with all that money. I think the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Its not regular times but how will Liverpool come back next season? We will see.

I do think you are right there is no single sustainable model it is evolution but I can't see what that is right now, probably needs a better brain than mine to work it out.

Money? Leicester City and Man City suggest no for diverse reasons. Manager with full support from the club? Pochettino suggests no despite his limited success.
 
I think when you have a dominate team it’s easier to attract top players. Especially as they normally have a charismatic manager and a big war chest.
But when a smaller club has a good season, it’s hard for them to hold onto their players.

I think more important than certain positions is leaders in a dressing room. Sometimes it’s a goal keeper marshalling the defence and spotting the midfielder in space.
Sometimes it’s a midfielder barking orders and spotting the runners.
Of course all this is in vain if you don’t have a decent striker who can bury every chance in two they get or at worst three.
In the PL you don’t get many chances most week. You need to take them and make the best of them.
 
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Mark Knoble at West Ham, what a leader and an example to all young players Mister commitment. But not enough to keep the Hammers from relegation maybe. Yep, if there is no one around that die hard leader with quality and commitment it is all in vain.

What separates West Ham from Leicester City? They have Vardy but they don't have Knoble. The rest are pretty much in the noise as (arguably) are the managers and clubs. Yet here we are 3rd place in the League versus relegation spot all but goal difference.
 
Mark Knoble at West Ham, what a leader and an example to all young players Mister commitment. But not enough to keep the Hammers from relegation maybe. Yep, if there is no one around that die hard leader with quality and commitment it is all in vain.

What separates West Ham from Leicester City? They have Vardy but they don't have Knoble. The rest are pretty much in the noise as (arguably) are the managers and clubs. Yet here we are 3rd place in the League versus relegation spot all but goal difference.
Mark Noble has the right attitude and commitment. He is very loyal to the club and a worthy club captain. However we are quite a poor side at the moment. Their isn't many players that seem to be punching above their weight. Rice is one for the future, but I'm fairly sure that future will be at Chelsea. Especially if we do get relegated.

We have spent a lot of money with little to show for it. When we do get a good quality player (Marko Arnautovic, Payet) we struggle to keep hold of them. Then we have to sign players that have never quite been good enough or players past their best.
Add in the horrendous injury list we seem to have every season, you start to see the problem. Years ago we were known as the academy and brought through a lot of youngsters. These days those kids would prefer to sign for a top four club and then immediately go out on loan. They struggle to ever make an impact at a big club. Where as in days gone by, we would have many a good youngster break through into the first team. Then after a season or two move on for a good fee. These days even if that happens, they move on for an average fee as they refuse to sign a long contract or decide they are moving anyway. I would say we didn't get our money's worth for either of the two players I mentioned earlier who left us because their head was turned.
 
Aurnativic was tough, a bit like Bale and others before them. Extraordinary talent but difficult to harness into a regular part of a team as they blow hot and cold. Again examples of great talent that only showed in flashes. Not really team players.

I find, in my teams situation, Eric Dier is intriguing. Not a superstar but very committed and has played across central defence and midfield. Some would say he has no place in the team but I see something in him. Probably central defence.

The point is forget the superstars and look for a foundation which might drive a club forward. Don't aspire to be a Man City or Liverpool. Aspire to be a Leicester City?
 
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Aurnativic was tough, a bit like Bale and others before them. Extraordinary talent but difficult to harness into a regular part of a team as they blow hot and cold. Again examples of great talent that only showed in flashes. Not really team players.

I find, in my teams situation, Eric Dier is intriguing. Not a superstar but very committed and has played across central defence and midfield. Some would say he has no place in the team but I see something in him. Probably central defence.

The point is forget the superstars and look for a foundation which might drive a club forward. Don't aspire to be a Man City or Liverpool. Aspire to be a Leicester City?
Amen to that. But right now we are just aspiring to staying up!
 
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