The 2021-2022 Football Thread

[Silencio]

Erik ten Hag officially announced as Man Utd's new manager. This is the right call. He has built two very strong teams at Ajax, has a track record of developing youth, his teams work hard and work together, and they play aggressive, attacking football.

Now it's to Murtough and Fletcher to sell or otherwise dispense with a vast swath of the first team squad and start the rebuild properly.

 

[wordsworth]

It'll require some sustained alchemy to get Manchester United back to something like the team they were in their Sir Alex heydays. When Ferguson left, eventually, the team pretty much imploded. While David Moyes no doubt made his own mistakes within a greater United context, at the time I was more angry at the players for behaving as though they'd never had that arrogance and sense of entitlement that so often got them to a final whistle as winners. Almost overnight it all seemed to evaporate. While underlining that in fact psychology has such a huge role to play in football, it also suggested that the United players, even then, lacked enough of the character and rigour to earn the team the title Champions again. Until… well, who knows when? As a United fan of many decades now, and yes, I saw George Best, Bobby Charlton and Dennis Law play in their pomp, I wish Erik ten Hag well and hope he's got a good few spells up his sleeve.

 

[Silencio]

It'll require some sustained alchemy to get Manchester United back to something like the team they were in their Sir Alex heydays. When Ferguson left, eventually, the team pretty much imploded. While David Moyes no doubt made his own mistakes within a greater United context, at the time I was more angry at the players for behaving as though they'd never had that arrogance and sense of entitlement that so often got them to a final whistle as winners. Almost overnight it all seemed to evaporate. While underlining that in fact psychology has such a huge role to play in football, it also suggested that the United players, even then, lacked enough of the character and rigour to earn the team the title Champions again. Until… well, who knows when? As a United fan of many decades now, and yes, I saw George Best, Bobby Charlton and Dennis Law play in their pomp, I wish Erik ten Hag well and hope he's got a good few spells up his sleeve.

David Gill left United at the same time Alex Ferguson did, and one could argue he was an equal or even greater loss, because he was replaced by the clueless Ed Woodward. However, it should be remembered that even though they left after winning the league for the final time, they left behind an aging squad that was crying out for a refresh that Woodward never pulled off.

I am cautiously optimistic about the structural changes they've made in the past year. By all accounts the managerial search process was very well run, but the rubber really meets the road this summer, so we shall see.

 

[Apple fanboy]

It'll require some sustained alchemy to get Manchester United back to something like the team they were in their Sir Alex heydays. When Ferguson left, eventually, the team pretty much imploded. While David Moyes no doubt made his own mistakes within a greater United context, at the time I was more angry at the players for behaving as though they'd never had that arrogance and sense of entitlement that so often got them to a final whistle as winners. Almost overnight it all seemed to evaporate. While underlining that in fact psychology has such a huge role to play in football, it also suggested that the United players, even then, lacked enough of the character and rigour to earn the team the title Champions again. Until… well, who knows when? As a United fan of many decades now, and yes, I saw George Best, Bobby Charlton and Dennis Law play in their pomp, I wish Erik ten Hag well and hope he's got a good few spells up his sleeve.

If Moyes had stayed and been given the time, imagine how much better Utd would be by now. Still there loss is our gain!

 

[wordsworth]

I thought that David Moyes was considerably shortchanged at United. It's great to see West Ham progressing so well with him at the helm.

Yes, David Gill was a tough act to follow, too. Thanks for reminding me of his importance in United's success of that era, Silencio.

On a different note, I thought that the Anfield response to Ronaldo and his partner Georgina's recent loss was exceptional. What a shame the thorough chastising that Liverpool gave United on the field of play saw a – hopefully small – number of idiots in United colours unable to honour that and instead resorting to small-minded and ugly chanting of an all too familiar nature (this with other clubs' fans, too) when it comes to Liverpool's involvement as opponents. Shocking.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

It'll require some sustained alchemy to get Manchester United back to something like the team they were in their Sir Alex heydays. When Ferguson left, eventually, the team pretty much imploded. While David Moyes no doubt made his own mistakes within a greater United context, at the time I was more angry at the players for behaving as though they'd never had that arrogance and sense of entitlement that so often got them to a final whistle as winners. Almost overnight it all seemed to evaporate. While underlining that in fact psychology has such a huge role to play in football, it also suggested that the United players, even then, lacked enough of the character and rigour to earn the team the title Champions again. Until… well, who knows when? As a United fan of many decades now, and yes, I saw George Best, Bobby Charlton and Dennis Law play in their pomp, I wish Erik ten Hag well and hope he's got a good few spells up his sleeve.

I beg to differ.

As was the case with Arsenal (who - unfortunately - took too long to replace Mr Wenger, and I write this as someone who liked, respected and greatly admired Mr Wenger both as a manager and as a man), personally, I think that Sir Alex Ferguson stayed on too long at Manchester United.

Not only that, but, by the time he eventually departed (as @Silencio rightly points out, below), as was the case with Mr Wenger, he left behind an ageing squad, a squad whose manifold shortcomings were disguised and masked by his presence.

However, to my mind, the biggest problem with Manchester United is the ownership, that of the Glazers.

David Gill left United at the same time Alex Ferguson did, and one could argue he was an equal or even greater loss, because he was replaced by the clueless Ed Woodward. However, it should be remembered that even though they left after winning the league for the final time, they left behind an aging squad that was crying out for a refresh that Woodward never pulled off.

I am cautiously optimistic about the structural changes they've made in the past year. By all accounts the managerial search process was very well run, but the rubber really meets the road this summer, so we shall see.

Agree.

If Moyes had stayed and been given the time, imagine how much better Utd would be by now. Still there loss is our gain!

Agreed.

Actually, I think that David Moyes was very poorly treated by Manchester United (as, for that matter, was Louis van Gaal - to be sacked having just won the FA Cup).

I thought that David Moyes was considerably shortchanged at United. It's great to see West Ham progressing so well with him at the helm.

Yes, David Gill was a tough act to follow, too. Thanks for reminding me of his importance in United's success of that era, Silencio.

On a different note, I thought that the Anfield response to Ronaldo and his partner Georgina's recent loss was exceptional. What a shame the thorough chastising that Liverpool gave United on the field of play saw a – hopefully small – number of idiots in United colours unable to honour that and instead resorting to small-minded and ugly chanting of an all too familiar nature (this with other clubs' fans, too) when it comes to Liverpool's involvement as opponents. Shocking.

Excellent post, and agree completely.

 

[JamesMike]

I hope the change at my Man U team is positive, fans will have to give him breathing space so he can develop the team, it will not happen overnight.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

If I were a Man Utd fan, my biggest concern would be the ownership. They are bad owners, and even if they manage to hire good people at every level below them, they are still there, still capable of hampering any good work that is done.

Man Utd are a very rich club, which insulates them from failure. But even so, and assuming they begin this summer with a good plan and have the right people to execute it, I think Rangnick was being realistic when he said Man Utd are six years away from the top competitors in the Premier League. So supporters will have to be patient, though it would not be unreasonable expect to see steady improvement going forward now that they've hit the reset button. The squad needs a rebuild and if they are going to go the 'systems' route, it will take years to program the squad to play that way.

As Klopp said, these things go in cycles. By the time Man Utd are contenders again Guardiola and Klopp, and the squads they built, will be history. Will their successors be able to maintain the current level (unlikely)? And what will happen to the teams currently around Man Utd?

In other news, Harry Maguire has received a bomb threat at his home, presumably in reaction to the loss at Anfield. Incredible.

 

[Silencio]

I always thought the United job was far too big for Moyes. He did bounce around in the wilderness for a number of years, but finally found a mutually good fit at West Ham.

The managerial chopping and changing has been pretty bad. Van Gaal didn't play attractive football, but axing him in favor of Mourinho wasn't the right move. With all the changes, the squad is comprised of players signed under five different permanent managers: no wonder it's an incoherent mess of parts that don't fit together. Aside from the manager, you need a football hierarchy that has an overarching philosophy of how to build a team, but Ed Woodward was content to pursue the shiniest toy on the market every summer.

The Glazers are awful, but you can't say they haven't spent money: they've just spent very, very poorly under Woodward's watch. They're not going to sell, so all I can hope is they've learned their lessons and let the professionals make the footballing decisions. Again, I think the organization changes made over the past year do bode well, but they're in a position where they have to do an awful lot of work moving out players who should've been gone ages ago, let alone identifying realistic targets that fit the desired system and convincing them to sign, even if UCL football is not on the cards for next season.

The threats against Maguire are utterly shameful, as was the ugly changing at Anfield. Such is the idiotic timeline we live in.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

The Glazers are awful, but you can't say they haven't spent money: they've just spent very, very poorly under Woodward's watch. They're not going to sell, so all I can hope is they've learned their lessons and let the professionals make the footballing decisions. Again, I think the organization changes made over the past year do bode well, but they're in a position where they have to do an awful lot of work moving out players who should've been gone ages ago, let alone identifying realistic targets that fit the desired system and convincing them to sign, even if UCL football is not on the cards for next season.

The best you can hope for is that they hire good people, keep spending, and don't meddle. Which, I suppose, is what every fan wants from their owners.

The threats against Maguire are utterly shameful, as was the ugly changing at Anfield. Such is the idiotic timeline we live in.

Some have suggested it's the 'darkest' AND (probably worse) the 'dumbest' timeline. I am not prepared to disagree.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Although Utd are an absolute mess at the moment, we do have two very good sides in City and Liverpool. So even if Utd were doing everything right, there is no guarantee of success. Partly the Ferguson years were so successful because the next best team wasn’t that great.
So top three is as good as UTD could aim for right now until City or Liverpool start looking a bit more vulnerable.
For those three clubs only a PL or CL title is considered a successful year (preferably with a cup thrown in as well). But they can’t all win one.

 

[wordsworth]

Yes, I quite agree, Scepticalscribe, that United's squad was ageing and Sir Alex should have left earlier (and M. Wenger at Arsenal similarly, too) but if you recall, Ferguson did announce his retirement previously only to backtrack when the team began to fall apart. That was merely a hint of what was to come, of course.

As I alluded to in my original post, I am interested in the role psychology plays in creative, complex collaboration – the many layers and pieces that go towards a successful achievement (say, an utterly classic movie with its extensive and varied cast, numerous skilled technicians and associated professionals, and all helmed by one person) or in this case, a football team dominating for a sustained length of time. When it works well it's beyond impressive.

Take Liverpool, for example. Clearly Jurgen Klopp is a very fine manager but he's more than that. It seems that just about everybody likes him and respects him, and he has a very winning personality as well as a winning mentality. How much of Liverpool's recent success can be ascribed specifically to the Klopp effect, I wonder? I know that, having watched a Champions League game between Liverpool and, I forget which team it was now, Liverpool seemed down and out at the beginning of what was a return match. Yet they played magnificently and the effect of the Anfield crowd was truly something to witness. Absolutely memorable stuff. Liverpool won.

And then there's Pep at City. He's rather good at his job too! It looks like City will have Haaland joining them next season so they're clearly getting all their ducks in a row again.

Erik ten Hag will certainly face some serious challenges when he is installed as Manchester United manager but, to dust off that old cliché, it's a funny old game, football.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Take Liverpool, for example. Clearly Jurgen Klopp is a very fine manager but he's more than that. It seems that just about everybody likes him and respects him, and he has a very winning personality as well as a winning mentality. How much of Liverpool's recent success can be ascribed specifically to the Klopp effect, I wonder? I know that, having watched a Champions League game between Liverpool and, I forget which team it was now, Liverpool seemed down and out at the beginning of what was a return match. Yet they played magnificently and the effect of the Anfield crowd was truly something to witness. Absolutely memorable stuff. Liverpool won.

To add to this though, Klopp has not just won everything every season. And his style had to evolve, just as Liverpool had to adapt to his style.

The 'heavy metal football' he initially brought was an early phase that produced exciting play but was too risky. It was an underdog style that demanded those risks be taken in order to beat a superior opponent. With the resources of a bigger club, Klopp had the luxury of adapting his own brand of gegenpressing style into something that was still fearsome going forward, but benefitted from an expensive but shrewdly-assembled world class spine in midfield, defense, and in goal. Liverpool are still a team that are built around taking risks, but those risks are substantially mitigated when you have players like van Dijk, Matip, Fabinho, and Alisson both keeping things tight but also knowing how to contribute to the attack.

All this to say that ten Hag will come in with a philosophy, presumably supported by newly-minted consultant Rangnick and the other club suits. He will now have the advantage of a huge transfer budget, the likes of which he's never experienced before. But he'll also have to adapt his philosophy to the league and club. Decide when to spend big but also dig up value talent. And then drill them for three or four years before they are the finished article. There will be few false starts along the way, and the club will have to support the manager while he reappraises the situation and makes adjustments or admits a certain star didn't work out.

EDIT: and one other admittedly obvious fact that Man Utd fans need to face is that there will never be another Ferguson era. That was a once-ever situation. The game has evolved and there is no way one manager can dominate the scene the way Ferguson did. That model is obsolete. Moreover, clubs and fans are more impatient. No top-level manager will ever last as long as Ferguson and Wenger. The rise of 'state clubs' has totally disrupted the financials of the sport and no single person can be trusted with that kind of money.

So what is a more realistic expectation? Today a 'very successful' manager building a 'long-term' project will last 5-7 years, maybe a decade in an exceptional case. More important in the longer-term will be the various suits above the manager in terms of defining the overall style of play and recruiting talent for it, probably across several managerial tenures. And, on top of all that, keeping the Glazers out of footballing matters to the greatest extent possible - while also keeping the financial taps open.

 

[Apple fanboy]

One normally expects a new manager bounce or honeymoon period.
One normally expects it to last longer than three minutes!

 

[Lord Blackadder]

The whole Man Utd squad is shot of confidence, but Varane's defending was alarming today. There is a suggestion that Real sold him at the right time. He's 28, which is still 'young' for a defender, so my instinct is that he's not past his prime. But when ten Hag comes in we'll see whether his issues are part of the general psychological malaise or more permanent.

Arsenal struck a blow for fourth today. It's still tight between them and Spurs, but the latter are very dependent on Kane and Son. If either gets injured it could make all the difference.

 

[Apple fanboy]

The whole Man Utd squad is shot of confidence, but Varane's defending was alarming today. There is a suggestion that Real sold him at the right time. He's 28, which is still 'young' for a defender, so my instinct is that he's not past his prime. But when ten Hag comes in we'll see whether his issues are part of the general psychological malaise or more permanent.

Arsenal struck a blow for fourth today. It's still tight between them and Spurs, but the latter are very dependent on Kane and Son. If either gets injured it could make all the difference.

I could put Kane in my FF team. Then he’ll underperform like Son does whenever I include him!

 

[Scepticalscribe]

A happy Gunner here, this evening, and a very good victory against Manchester United earlier today.

Two excellent and thoughtful posts by @wordsworth and @Lord Blackadder.

One further point re both Pep Guardiola, and, to an even greater extent, above all, Jurgen Klopp: Players grow, - are allowed and encouraged to grow - evolve, develop (and improve) under both of them.

Klopp is not just a superb manager (and man manager), but he is also someone whose teams are always greater than the sum of their (considerable) parts.

Both managers have created teams, cohesive units, based on philosophies and systems, and have taken the time to ensure that they have the players - finding, (buying intelligently, sometimes,) and training, and not just training, but, of even greater importance, teaching them, that is, taking the time and trouble to teach them, and explain things to them - proper coaching, in other words - so that they can play a particular and specific role in the team, and feel comfortable and confident in doing so.

The creation and crafting of such a team takes time, but an even greater measure of how good Klopp is, is the fact that when players leave Liverpool, they are far better footballers than when they arrived at Anfield. Klopp is not just good for the team; he is also good for the players - they grow, both as players and as people, under Klopp.

The contrast with Mourinho - under whom players shrank, and shrivelled, and whose toxic perspective poisoned everything he touched as his best years are far behind him - and even Solskjaer, who was a decent human being, was stark and very striking. Players were diminished by their time at Old Trafford, and rarely left the club the better for the experience.

For now, Manchester United are not a team; rather, they are a collection of individuals, some of them very talented.

 

[Apple fanboy]

A happy Gunner here, today, and a very good victory against Manchester United today.

Two excellent and thoughtful posts by @wordsworth and @Lord Blackadder.

One further point re both Pep Guardiola, and, to an even greater extent, above all, Jurgen Klopp: Players grow, - are allowed and encouraged to grow - evolve, develop (and improve) under both of them.

Klopp is not just a superb manager (and man manager), but he is also someone whose teams are always greater than the sum of their (considerable) parts.

Both managers have created teams, cohesive units, based on philosophies and systems, and have taken the time to ensure that they have the players - finding, (buying intelligently sometimes) and training, and teaching them - so that they can play a role in the team, and feel comfortable and confident in doing so.

The creation and crafting of such a team takes time, but an even greater measure of hios good Klopp is, is the fact that when players leave Liverpool, they are far better footballers than when they arrived. Klopp is not just good for the team; he is also good for the players - they grow as players and people under Klopp.

The contrast with Mourinho - under whom players shrank, and shrivelled, and whose toxic perspective poisoned everything he touched as his best years are far behind him - and even Solskjaer, who was a decent human being, was stark and very striking. Players were diminished by their time at Old Trafford, and rarely left the club the better for the experience.

For now, Manchester United are not a team; rather, they are a collection of individuals, some of them very talented.

I’m sure you are a very happy gunner. Utd can’t wait for this season to end. They are having a terrible year. But when did they last have a good one?

 

[Silencio]

Questions about Varane are absolutely legitimate. He's had a tough go of it this year with some unlucky injuries and illnesses, plus having to play alongside shambolic defenders like Maguire and Telles. I'd say quite a few good United players have looked pretty awful this season, though plenty more have been fully exposed as not being good enough. The negativity around the squad has coalesced into something resembling bad juju: bad luck and poor refereeing conspired with the usual poor decisionmaking and lack of desire to bring about today's expectedly lopsided result at the Emirates.

Varane will benefit from competent coaching, a competent CB partner, and a competent holding MF in front of him next season — hopefully.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Bayern seal their tenth title today, brushing aside 'rivals' Dortmund. The debate continues to rage about the state of the Bundesliga, but the bare, inarguable central fact is that no allegedly top division league should feature a team winning ten titles in a row.

Bayern's failures in Europe are a direct consequence of their stranglehold on the league in Germany. They have no meaningful competition, and just like PSG it makes a mockery of their domestic league, leading to few meaningful games between Champions League matches. There is a genuine competition in the league, but it is between the second-rank clubs and they just keep taking points off each other.

Moreover, the state clubs and English clubs are now poaching the best Bundesliga talent, rather than Bayern.

EDIT: And Spurs drop points today...

 

[Apple fanboy]

Bayern seal their tenth title today, brushing aside 'rivals' Dortmund. The debate continues to rage about the state of the Bundesliga, but the bare, inarguable central fact is that no allegedly top division league should feature a team winning ten titles in a row.

Bayern's failures in Europe are a direct consequence of their stranglehold on the league in Germany. They have no meaningful competition, and just like PSG it makes a mockery of their domestic league, leading to few meaningful games between Champions League matches. There is a genuine competition in the league, but it is between the second-rank clubs and they just keep taking points off each other.

Moreover, the state clubs and English clubs are now poaching the best Bundesliga talent, rather than Bayern.

EDIT: And Spurs drop points today...

It’s the Spurs way!

 

[pachyderm]

we had a goal taken back.

bah!

lost 1-0

 

[Scepticalscribe]

EDIT: And Spurs drop points today...

It’s the Spurs way!

Actually, it would not have been robbery had Brentford taken all three points.

Agree with @Lord Blackadder about how unhealthy (both for domestic competition, and also - for when the teams in question, Bayern & PSG, because, when they do finally encounter serious competition, they tend to find that a bit of an unexpected challenge and are utterly unable to cope with it) these stranglehold leagues actually are.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I was ready to chuckle at Chelsea dropping points to West Ham at home today. But Pulisic has just saved their bacon and, infuriatingly, I have to applaud Pulisic. He needs to get out of Chelsea, I never want to root for them on any level but they have USA's best player on their books.

I am also ready to watch Chelsea decay in the post-Abramovich era. We'll see what happens under the new ownership, but it looks as though whoever buys them they will have less cash to spend in the future and be competing with more and more 'rich' clubs.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I was ready to chuckle at Chelsea dropping points to West Ham at home today. But Pulisic has just saved their bacon and, infuriatingly, I have to applaud Pulisic. He needs to get out of Chelsea, I never want to root for them on any level but they have USA's best player on their books.

I was expecting the worst with us picking the ‘b’ team. But we really played well and were unlucky not to get anything from the game. But our resources are not the same as the teams above us. We don’t have top internationals warming the bench!
Still David Moyes was right to rest the first team with a very important semi final coming up on Thursday.