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The 2022-2023 Football Thread

As much as I loathe what Man City represent, you can't help but admire the fact that they have amassed a truly spectacular squad and then managed to actually get them playing well together.
That's a hard thing to do.
 
HandsomeDanNZ said:
As much as I loathe what Man City represent, you can't help but admire the fact that they have amassed a truly spectacular squad and then managed to actually get them playing well together.
That's a hard thing to do.
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No, @HandsomeDanNZ, I don't admire it.

However, I will acknowledge (with gritted teeth and with the greatest of reluctance) that Pep Guardiola has managed to fashion a ferociously good team from his expensively assembled players (which is something that not all of his managerial peers elsewhere - with access to even more lavish budgets - have succeeded in doing), and yes, he has indeed managed to get them playing not just well, but very well, together.

Nevertheless, - and @Lord Blackadder has already made this point - Pep Guardiola has only ever succeeded as a manager when he has been supported by the bottomless pockets or boundless largesse of wealthy backers; mentoring, nurturing, developing players, identifying talent and drawing it out, helping players to grow, these are not what he does.

Yes, he is an excellent coach, but his excellence is best expressed with fully developed mature players. He excels at encouraging the already fully developed and fully functioning player to perform to the best of their skill in a team playing to a pattern of his choosing.

Mind you, I will concede - irrespective of access to vast respurces - that not everyone can do that; one need only look at the records of Lampard at Chelsea, or, Mourinho at Manchester United for dismal examples of this.
 
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HandsomeDanNZ said:
As much as I loathe what Man City represent, you can't help but admire the fact that they have amassed a truly spectacular squad and then managed to actually get them playing well together.
That's a hard thing to do.
Click to expand...
I can, on a narrow level, admire the quality of play.

But the thing about the richest clubs is that they can afford to fail over and over again until they eventually succeed. It's not as if they are necessarily being ultra-efficient with their resources and demonstrating some secret superior approach to running a club...they just have a lot more to work with and have no fear of missing a rare shot at silverware, or even being wound up, if they make mistakes. If they fail they can just buy more world-class players and keep grinding at it till they win, and then win again, and again, and again.... Basic competence + limitless resources essentially guarantees eventual success.

I firmly believe if you were to plop Man City's director of football and Pep and his coaching team into, say, Wealdstone, they might be able to improve performances to a substantial degree but they would not be rocketing up the divisions. And they might go absolutely nowhere. The money breeds success far above all else.
 
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Lord Blackadder said:
I can, on a narrow level, admire the quality of play.

But the thing about the richest clubs is that they can afford to fail over and over again until they eventually succeed. It's not as if they are necessarily being ultra-efficient with their resources and demonstrating some secret superior approach to running a club...they just have a lot more to work with and have no fear of missing a rare shot at silverware, or even being wound up, if they make mistakes. If they fail they can just buy more world-class players and keep grinding at it till they win, and then win again, and again, and again.... Basic competence + limitless resources essentially guarantees eventual success.

I firmly believe if you were to plop Man City's director of football and Pep and his coaching team into, say, Wealdstone, they might be able to improve performances to a substantial degree but they would not be rocketing up the divisions. And they might go absolutely nowhere. The money breeds success far above all else.
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Having money and having success are not the same thing. Like managers. Some are excellent at managing a team of expensive egos and getting the best out of them and bringing in new talent that fits in.
Others are better at a smaller club with less expectations, wheeling and dealing to get a bargain, a loan or a young kid into the first team.

But swapping the two types of managers doesn't usually work. Same as the rest of the world. I'm good at my job being the purchase manager at a small to medium sized firm. But I'd probably be hopeless to run the purchasing team at Apple. I'd be out of my depth. Like Frank Lampard and Stevie G.

They were doing fine at the smaller teams. Then suddenly they are in the dugout at a PL club and out of their depth.
 
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Milan were battered in that first half

I agree it wasn't a penalty. Martinez tried to con the ref with theatrics

Can Milan recover i wonder

EDIT:...they cannot.
 
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daneoni said:
Milan were battered in that first half

I agree it wasn't a penalty. Martinez tried to con the ref with theatrics

Can Milan recover i wonder

EDIT:...they cannot.
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No sorrow for Milan, a team that were a giant of yesteryear.

I recall a time when they bestrode both Italian and European football.
 
HandsomeDanNZ said:
With the Premier League status more-or-less confirmed, are you now more inclined to get behind this European adventure? Hoping for a final and a win?
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Good questions.

And, at this stage, it does seem as though the Hammers are doing an awful lot better than they may have dared to hope only a few short weeks ago.
 
Scepticalscribe said:
Good questions.

And, at this stage, it does seem as though the Hammers are doing an awful lot better than they may have dared to hope only a few short weeks ago.
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I think the conundrum here is if they were to win the Europa Conference (and do the expected and stay up), would that mean that their guaranteed European adventures next season are just too much of a distraction after this year clearly showing that it was a tough old road competing on several fronts?

Unless there is some serious recruitment to virtually double the squad, I would say that the best scenario would be to get knocked out in the early rounds...
 
HandsomeDanNZ said:
I think the conundrum here is if they were to win the Europa Conference (and do the expected and stay up), would that mean that their guaranteed European adventures next season are just too much of a distraction after this year clearly showing that it was a tough old road competing on several fronts?

Unless there is some serious recruitment to virtually double the squad, I would say that the best scenario would be to get knocked out in the early rounds...
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Well, yes, hoping to be knocked out early in a luxury that clubs who can expect to qualify for Europe most seasons can indulge in (and I won't deny that this is an approach that pays practial dividends), but, nevertheless, for a club that does not manage to qualify for Europe on a regular basis, the calculus may be a bit different.

As long as sufficient precautions are taken to ensure that relegation is no longer any sort of a serious threat, why not allow the club (and the fans) to enjoy an extended run in a European competition?
 
HandsomeDanNZ said:
I think the conundrum here is if they were to win the Europa Conference (and do the expected and stay up), would that mean that their guaranteed European adventures next season are just too much of a distraction after this year clearly showing that it was a tough old road competing on several fronts?

Unless there is some serious recruitment to virtually double the squad, I would say that the best scenario would be to get knocked out in the early rounds...
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This is exactly the dilemma. Having played the last two seasons in Europe and getting to the semis both years means we will have played 60 games by the end. Many of our players were also involved in international competitions and matches as well.
So early on I was happy to get knocked out to rid ourselves of Thursday night games. But now it’s just another 180 minutes, it’s so close. Our trophy cabinet is a little sparse and a victory would be nice.

As for squad strengthening, with Rice inevitably leaving in the summer, many other quality played getting on a bit, I think it’s a tall order. Selling a player for £150 million (and I doubt we will get that), and buying three at 50 million rarely makes the team better. But I’d love to be wrong.
 
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HandsomeDanNZ said:
I think the conundrum here is if they were to win the Europa Conference (and do the expected and stay up), would that mean that their guaranteed European adventures next season are just too much of a distraction after this year clearly showing that it was a tough old road competing on several fronts?

Unless there is some serious recruitment to virtually double the squad, I would say that the best scenario would be to get knocked out in the early rounds...
Click to expand...

If you're that close, go get that trophy. I may support a club that already has an overflowing trophy cabinet, but our recently ended drought makes me appreciate that good feeling you get when you score some silverware.
 
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Apple fanboy said:
I can just about remember a trophy.
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All the more reason to go for it.

You are safe from relegation, (or, as good as, it would take an improbable to impossible set of results for matters to be otherwise) so why not go all out for a trophy?

That would make this a pretty good season; even if you reach the final would be an advance on what you were able to achieve until now.
 
Scepticalscribe said:
All the more reason to go for it.

You are safe from relegation, (or, as good as, it would take an improbable to impossible set of results for matters to be otherwise) so why not go all out for a trophy?

That would make this a pretty good season; even if you reach the final would be an advance on what you were able to achieve until now.
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Indeed. It will be interesting to see if David Moyes rests players this weekend in anticipation of Thursday’s game.
 
Apple fanboy said:
Indeed. It will be interesting to see if David Moyes rests players this weekend in anticipation of Thursday’s game.
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If you survive (as seems more than likely) and if you manage to bring home some silverware, then, I think that much of the criticism that has been directed at David Moyes this season has been excessive and somewhat unwarranted.

Everyone wants to see stylish, attractive, attacking football, or even the sort of pressing game where you play out from the back; but, firstly, one must prioritise survival, and secondly, one must play the players one has (or has been able to buy, or develop), and not all of them are capable of mastering these styles in a way that can deliver a decent result against teams with a bottomless purse.

If the season leads to some silverware, then, I think that you may have to class it a reasonably successful one.
 
Scepticalscribe said:
If you survive (as seems more than likely) and if you manage to bring home some silverware, then, I think that much of the criticism that has been directed at David Moyes this season has been excessive and somewhat unwarranted.

Everyone wants to see stylish, attractive, attacking football, or even the sort of pressing game where you play out from the back; but, firstly, one must prioritise survival, and secondly, one must play the players one has (or has been able to buy, or develop), and not all of them are capable of mastering these styles in a way that can deliver a decent result against teams with a bottomless purse.

If the season leads to some silverware, then, I think that you may have to class it a reasonably successful one.
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Actually all this playing out for from the back is pretty dull. Goalkeeper passes to the centre half. Centre half passes to the left back. Left back passes back to the goalkeeper. Rinse repeat.
Mostly because players know everything is monitored these days. Including their passing success % rate. They’d rather pass backwards than look for a 50/50 ball upfield. Or god forbid run past a player!
 
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Apple fanboy said:
Actually all this playing out for from the back is pretty dull. Goalkeeper passes to the centre half. Centre half passes to the left back. Left back passes back to the goalkeeper. Rinse repeat.
Mostly because players know everything is monitored these days. Including their passing success % rate. They’d rather pass backwards than look for a 50/50 ball upfield. Or god forbid run past a player!
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I think that part of the reason for managers insisting on playing out form the back is to keep possession; if they other team don't have the ball, they cannot score.

I have been reading some interesting pieces on old style goal-keepers, keepers who controlled their defence, policed their box, could read the game, were good with their hands and made some excellent saves, but whose footwork was execrable, - or, inadequate - and that this has sealed their fate in the modern game in the eyes of some managers.

However, I agree that a player who could run, dribble, feint, pass, and also shoot was always worth watching; this stuff takes serious skill.
 
Scepticalscribe said:
I think that part of the reason for managers insisting on playing out form the back is to keep possession; if they other team don't have the ball, they cannot score.

I have been reading some interesting pieces on old style goal-keepers, keepers who controlled their defence, policed their box, could read the game, were good with their hands and made some excellent saves, but whose footwork was execrable, - or, inadequate - and that this has sealed their fate in the modern game in the eyes of some managers.

However, I agree that a player who could run, dribble, feint, pass, and also shoot was always worth watching; this stuff takes serious skill.
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Schmichael and Seamen come to mind.
 
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