The 2022-2023 Football Thread

[Apple fanboy]

I would not say they've 'blown it.' That would be true if it were a remotely fair fight, but it wasn't. Arsenal got into a league-leading position by overperforming for long stretches of the season. By contrast, Man City rarely need to overperform or even be 100% in order to win matches or titles. They are so stacked in terms of talent and depth that, in most seasons, they can win the league even when only operating at 80% capacity. Their 'rivals' all have smaller, less-talented squads. In late season matches when teams often have to play 2-3 bench players in key positions due to injuries or to manage player minutes, Man City can still put out a first XI of all elite players with no weak spots. Who else can do that?

Liverpool in 2020 were arguably a more talented, deeper squad than Arsenal are this year and they still had to overperform in order to win the title. It's disappointing that Arsenal failed to finish ahead of Man City but there's no shame in that. Man City had a big advantage from day 1. Arsenal are still arguably overperforming by finishing second, so while it may be cold comfort to Gunners fans looking for a title, they've done very well.

Agree Arsenal have no shame in finishing 2nd. Heck there are 18 teams in the league who would swap with them gladly!
Having the most money though does not guarantee success. Otherwise Chelsea would be second. It takes a good manager as well. Pep is certainly doing a much better job than many others who have had a big cheque book.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I love having groceries delivered. I save at least 1 hour a week.

I would not say they've 'blown it.' That would be true if it were a remotely fair fight, but it wasn't. Arsenal got into a league-leading position by overperforming for long stretches of the season. By contrast, Man City rarely need to overperform or even be 100% in order to win matches or titles. They are so stacked in terms of talent and depth that, in most seasons, they can win the league even when only operating at 80% capacity. Their 'rivals' all have smaller, less-talented squads. In late season matches when teams often have to play 2-3 bench players in key positions due to injuries or to manage player minutes, Man City can still put out a first XI of all elite players with no weak spots. Who else can do that?

Liverpool in 2020 were arguably a more talented, deeper squad than Arsenal are this year and they still had to overperform in order to win the title. It's disappointing that Arsenal failed to finish ahead of Man City but there's no shame in that. Man City had a big advantage from day 1. Arsenal are still arguably overperforming by finishing second, so while it may be cold comfort to Gunners fans looking for a title, they've done very well.

Excellent post, and well said.

Agree Arsenal have no shame in finishing 2nd. Heck there are 18 teams in the league who would swap with them gladly!
Having the most money though does not guarantee success. Otherwise Chelsea would be second. It takes a good manager as well. Pep is certainly doing a much better job than many others who have had a big cheque book.

No, no shame at all (just a little disappointment) at finishing second.

However, - and this is why perspctive is everything - Champions League qualification was the very best I could have hoped for (and would have hoped for) last August; knowing (last August) that we would end the season in second place would have left me ecstatic.

In truth, Arsenal overperformed all season, and it is unfair (as it was when Liverpool were runners-up to the behemoth that is Manchester City) to see this as "bottling" it, or "blowing it".

With the intensity of the modern game over the course of a full season, it is unrealistic to expect a squad (especially a relatively thin squad, where injuries in key positions become more pronounced after February) to sustain that degree of success for the entire season - which is what success asks of a team, for, nowadays, the margin for error is very thin.

 

[yaxomoxay]

Excellent post, and well said.

No, no shame at all (just a little disappointment) at finishing second.

However, - and this is why perspctive is everything - Champions League qualification was the very best I could have hoped for (and would have hoped for) last August; knowing (last August) that we would end the season in second place would have left me ecstatic.

In truth, Arsenal overperformed all season, and it is unfair (as it was when Liverpool were runners-up to the behemoth that is Manchester City) to see this as "bottling" it, or "blowing it".

With the intensity of the modern game over the course of a full season, it is unrealistic to expect a squad (especially a relatively thin squad, where injuries in key positions become more pronounced after February) to sustain that degree of success for the entire season - which is what success asks of a team, for, nowadays, the margin for error is very thin.

Glad my groceries have invaded this thread 😂

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Glad my groceries have invaded this thread 😂

Welcome.

I have spent much of yesterday, and almost all of today reading "Barça - The Rise and Fall of the Club that Built Modern Football" by Simon Kuper and must say that it is excellent.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Having the most money though does not guarantee success.

No, it only guarantees that 1) success is very likely; 2) You can mismanage things or make mistakes and still beat your rivals. You can afford to fail indefinitely until you succeed. And if you run the club reasonably competently, you may become dominant.

 

[Apple fanboy]

No, it only guarantees that 1) success is very likely; 2) You can mismanage things or make mistakes and still beat your rivals. You can afford to fail indefinitely until you succeed. And if you run the club reasonably competently, you may become dominant.

Dominant clubs come and go. Like all things it will come to pass.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Dominant clubs come and go. Like all things it will come to pass.

Yes and no.

Someday the sheik will tire of Man City - or he will die, or be overthrown, or be banned from ownership like Abramovich was. So this seemingly invincible Man City has a lifespan.

But geography, economics, and politics determine who the richest clubs will be. Large urban centers will always have some of the biggest, most competitive clubs. Top position amongst them will rotate, but they are privileged in a way most clubs are not.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Having the most money though does not guarantee success.

Agree.

Chelsea are a hilarious example of what not to do and how not to do it.

No, it only guarantees that 1) success is very likely; 2) You can mismanage things or make mistakes and still beat your rivals. You can afford to fail indefinitely until you succeed. And if you run the club reasonably competently, you may become dominant.

I would argue (yes, this may be semantics, but it is more a difference of degree) that success is much more likely, rather than very likely.

And even autocratic regimes with a bottomless purse prefer that failure is not indefinite, for their patience will rarely run that far.

Again, it is merely a matter of degree, but I would argue that the latitude (not least, in terms of how long the pwners are prepared to wait until success arrives) granted to those who run obscenely welathy clubs is far greater than the latitude extended to others in less elevated environments.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Dominant clubs come and go. Like all things it will come to pass.

I agree.

The (relatively) sorry state of Barcelona, PSG, and AC Milan these days - I recall when these clubs were genuine giants - not to mention Manchester United, and, in an earlier era, Liverpool, - all of whom were dominant in their day, domestically and internationally - serves to remind us of this.

Yes and no.

Someday the sheik will tire of Man City - or he will die, or be overthrown, or be banned from ownership like Abramovich was. So this seemingly invincible Man City has a lifespan.

Or Pep Guardiola may become burned out, and quit, as he was after four years of managing Barcelona, and he may be succeeded by a less gifted and less obsessively driven manager, which, in turn, may have an impact on the success of the team.

But geography, economics, and politics determine who the richest clubs will be. Large urban centers will always have some of the biggest, most competitive clubs. Top position amongst them will rotate, but they are privileged in a way most clubs are not.

Fair enough; this is very true.

 

[daneoni]

Whoever wins tomorrow will likely end up being UCL champions.

Inter didn't seem particularly imperious, and were as good as Milan were terrible.

 

[Apple fanboy]

8 month ban for breaching gambling rules for Brentford’s Ivan Toney.
They will really miss him.

 

[daneoni]

That's a huge blow to Brentford but luckily they're safe for this season. Will need to buy a replacement.

Also wonder if any other clubs will move for Toney regardless in the summer

 

[Apple fanboy]

That's a huge blow to Brentford but luckily they're safe for this season. Will need to buy a replacement.

Also wonder if any other clubs will move for Toney regardless in the summer

I doubt there will be that many takers. Not because of the talent, but because of the ban. What’s the value of someone who can’t play for 8 months? Do they come back as hungry as ever or forever a shadow of their former self.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I doubt there will be that many takers. Not because of the talent, but because of the ban. What’s the value of someone who can’t play for 8 months? Do they come back as hungry as ever or forever a shadow of their former self.

I also doubt the club will want to let him go cheaply. More likely, if they plan on selling, they will dock his wages during the ban and hope to move him on the summer for a decent price after his ban expires and after he’s returned to match fitness.

 

[daneoni]

Also it seems a bit hypocritical and scapegoaty to be punishing a player for betting, when every other ad from Sky is about betting on upcoming fixtures with incentives.

The owner/financier of Brighton made a chunk of his money from gambling.

The owner the one of the biggest betting companies in the UK was given a CBE for 'services to business and community'

I appreciate 'rules are rules' but it reeks of picking and choosing moral grounds to stand on.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

8 month ban for breaching gambling rules for Brentford’s Ivan Toney.
They will really miss him.

An eight month ban for having been found guilty of (which he didn't contest, or dispute) 262 breaches of gambling rules over a period between February 2017 and January 2021?

That is not a small number, either in terms of time, or in terms of the number of breaches of the gambling rules.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Also it seems a bit hypocritical and scapegoaty to be punishing a player for betting, when every other ad from Sky is about betting on upcoming fixtures with incentives.

The owner/financier of Brighton made a chunk of his money from gambling.

The owner the one of the biggest betting companies in the UK was given a CBE for 'services to business and community'

I appreciate 'rules are rules' but it reeks of picking and choosing moral grounds to stand on.

Fair comment.

There is an element of that - in a sense, choosing what culprit you prefer charges against - but his were not minor lapses.

However, I devoutly hope that Manchester City - charged with breaking the financial play rules rules on over a hundred occasions - are pursued with the same rigour.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

As long as players aren’t betting on a sport they are competing in them there is no issue IMO.

 

[daneoni]

Rodri + Stones > Modric + Kroos

Can see why Madrid want Bellingham, they no longer have legs in midfield.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Never been much of a gambler. Although City to make the final looks like a safe bet (unfortunately!).

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Never been much of a gambler. Although City to make the final looks like a safe bet (unfortunately!).

Yes, very unfortunately, City are ahead (not that one can like, let alone love, Real Madrid) by two goals to nil.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

The betting thing is ridiculously hypocritical. The FA / Premier League looks the other way or shrugs their shoulders when clubs are bought by secret consortiums based in tax havens, petro-monarchs, oligarchs, and / or convicted criminals. They effectively punish fans and players for owners asset-stripping clubs and getting them wound up. They are cowardly and act helpless about it or minimize the issues.

But they come down like a falling tree on individual players for betting misdeeds. I have no sympathy with the players if they broke the rules, but if the FA were as strict about financial doping and a 'fit and proper person' vetting of owners as they are about gambling (whilst also eagerly accepting piles of gambling sponsorship money), the game would be a lot better shape.

EDIT: this year's Champions League Final is going to be a snoozer...Man City to crush some Italian no-hoper and win their long-awaited European title. They'll get there in the end, but it was never really exciting and it took too long given the money spent.

At least it won't be Real, though this isn't any better from my perspective. But I hope the camera pans to sad Real fans after the match today. Boo hoo, you don't get to win your 25,693rd trophy.

 

[daneoni]

Game. Set. Match.

Treble looks on.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

The only argument in favor of a Super League would be that pretty much all the clubs I really hate would be collected in a single place, making them easier to ignore. Matches like this would pass by my life unnoticed...

 

[Apple fanboy]

The only argument in favor of a Super League would be that pretty much all the clubs I really hate would be collected in a single place, making them easier to ignore. Matches like this would pass by my life unnoticed...

Including Liverpool? The CL gets a lot less interest than the PL with most people I know. But I suppose it’s a smaller pool of fans who have an interest in the CL.