Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
In truth that’s a bit before my time. But I did see all three play for West Ham in a legends game. As I recall Bob Wilson was in goal.
I was teasing you, as I was pretty certain that this was the case.

Lucky you to have actually seen them play in a legends game.

Meanwhile, in Paris, despite playing rather well so far, Arsenal have now fallen behind, which means that they now must overcome a two goal deficit in order to progress to the final.
 
Arsenal fought well tonight, and played well, actually, they played very well - and in no way did they disgrace themselves. They

However, they failed to take (or convert) their chances - of which they had quite a few - and this, unfortunately, is not a new complaint, or problem.

Moreover, they were up against a PSG team who also fought hard, ferociously hard, - had a superb keeper - and who were better than them over both legs.

Tonight, PSG won by two goals to one, defeating Arsenal - on aggregate - by three goals to one, and thus, proceed to the final of the Champion's League.
 
Arsenal fought well tonight, and played well, actually, they played very well - and in no way did they disgrace themselves. They

However, they failed to take (or convert) their chances - of which they had quite a few - and this, unfortunately, is not a new complaint, or problem.

Moreover, they were up against a PSG team who also fought hard, ferociously hard, - had a superb keeper - and who were better than them over both legs.

Tonight, PSG won by two goals to one, defeating Arsenal - on aggregate - by three goals to one, and thus, proceed to the final of the Champion's League.
Well you progressed further than most. As an added bones you can be in the CHAMPIONS LEAGUE next year along with the top four in the league and a team from the bottom five. They really need to rename that competition!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Scepticalscribe
Well you progressed further than most. As an added bones you can be in the CHAMPIONS LEAGUE next year along with the top four in the league and a team from the bottom five. They really need to rename that competition!
I know, I know, I know.

When compared to the situation others may find themselves in, I really don't have all that much to complain about.

And Arsenal fought ferociously tonight, - and fought well - thus, pride (dignity, honour?) was/were salvaged.

However, I suppose that what frustrates me is not so much that we lost the competition - while we played well tonight, over both legs, I must concede that PSG were the better team and deserved to go through - but that we have failed to learn from our mistakes, mistakes that have increasingly played out in recent seasons.

That is not to take from the performances of Saka (who was superb, fiercely hungry and fighting), Rice, and Saliba - they were all excellent, but we still failed to convert all but one of the many (pretty good) chances that came our way.
 
I know, I know, I know.

When compared to the situation others may find themselves in, I really don't have all that much to complain about.

And Arsenal fought ferociously tonight, - and fought well - thus, pride (dignity, honour?) was/were salvaged.

However, I suppose that what frustrates me is not so much that we lost the competition - while we played well tonight, over both legs, I must concede that PSG were the better team and deserved to go through - but that we have failed to learn from our mistakes, mistakes that have increasingly played out in recent seasons.

That is not to take from the performances of Saka (who was superb, fiercely hungry and fighting), Rice, and Saliba - they were all excellent, but we still failed to convert all but one of the many (pretty good) chances that came our way.
Arse and Pool were kinda really good out of nowhere IMHO...
 
Arse and Pool were kinda really good out of nowhere IMHO...
No, not quite.

Neither team came "out of nowhere".

Liverpool had (have) an excellent team, the team bequeathed by Jurgen Klopp, and a new manager (Arne Slot) successfully motivated and moulded them - and steered them - to the title.

Meanwhile, Arsenal have been re-building (and slowly improving) for a number of years, and have the basis of - the bones of - what is potentially an excellent team; however, they are clearly lacking in a couple of key areas, and the number of injuries they have suffered is not just unfortunate, but, somewhat troubling.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pachyderm
Apparently, Mikel Arteta is of the opinion that the difference between the two sides last night was the superb performance of PSG's Italian goalkeeper, Gianluigi Donnarumma, and there is considerable truth in that.

However, he is also attempting to argue (and this is either deluded or fatuous, or, perhaps he is in denial, or feels the need to spin a positive post-match narrative) that Arsenal were the better team over the two legs of the contest.

This is arrant nonsense; Arsenal were poor in the first leg, and, while they played extremely well - especially in the first half of the match in Paris, and created several very good chances - they failed to convert those chances into goals, for, they failed to score until it was far too late, and, in football, you win a match by scoring goals, and by successfully preventing your opponent from scoring. Arsenal failed on both counts.

Granted, Donnarumma was outstanding (and, while Raya is good, Donnarumma is clearly better).

Nevertheless, the fact that Arsenal do not have someone who can actually score goals - the kind of classic centre-forward with ruthless and clinical finishing (Declan Rice is a superlative player, but - even though he has scored a number of goals this season for Arsenal, and it is telling that he is one of their leading goal-scorers - he was not signed for his goal-scoring ability; likewise, the injured and absent Kai Havertz) - for, last night, they did create chances, several of them quite decent chances, but, as always, failed to convert them into goals on the score-board.

And this is not a new concern, issue, or problem - this issue, this problem, is something that the team has had for at least the past three seasons.

To my mind, at this stage, with (apart from the FA Cup in his first season), my fear is that the lack of success (success measured in trophies, in silverware, rather than in achieving second place in the Premiership for the third successive season, or reaching the semi-final of the Champion's League, which I would argue is a genuine achievement) may lead to a situation whereby some of the (better members of the) team request departures, or exits, or seek transfers, to places where the acquisition of titles, and trophies may appear a more likely proposition.
 
Last edited:
Apparently, Mikel Arteta is of the opinion that the difference between the two sides last night was the superb performance of PSG's Italian goalkeeper, Gianluigi Donnarumma, and there is considerable truth in that.

However, he is also attempting to argue (and this is either deluded or fatuous, or, perhaps he is in denial, or feels the need to spin a positive post-match narrative) that Arsenal were the better team over the two legs of the contest.

This is arrant nonsense; Arsenal were poor in the first leg, and, while they played extremely well - especially in the first half of the match in Paris, and created several very good chances - they failed to convert those chances into goals, for, they failed to score until it was far too late, and, in football, you win a match by scoring goals, and by successfully preventing your opponent from scoring. Arsenal failed on both counts.

Granted, Donnarumma was outstanding (and, while Raya is good, Donnarumma is clearly better).

Nevertheless, the fact that Arsenal do not have someone who can actually score goals - the kind of classic centre-forward with ruthless and clinical finishing (Declan Rice is a superlative player, but - even though he has scored a number of goals this season for Arsenal, and it is telling that he is one of their leading goal-scorers - he was not signed for his goal-scoring ability; likewise, the injured and absent Kai Havertz) - for, last night, they did create chances, several of them quite decent chances, but, as always, failed to convert them into goals on the score-board.

And this is not a new concern, issue, or problem - this issue, this problem, is something that the team has had for at least the past three seasons.

To my mind, at this stage, with (apart from the FA Cup in his first season), my fear is that the lack of success (success measured in trophies, in silverware, rather than in achieving second place in the Premiership for the third successive season, or reaching the semi-final of the Champion's League, which I would argue is a genuine achievement) may lead to a situation whereby some of the (better members of the) team request departures, or exits, or seek transfers, to places where the acquisition of titles, and trophies may appear a more likely proposition.
The advantage Arsenal will have over others when looking for a striker is that Arsenal can give the striker champions league football. The problem will be that players agents know a number of premier league squads are looking for good strikers and thus in my opinion the players agents will hold the clubs to ransom, trying to force them to pay way way over the odds for their striker. This is exactly what happened to United and Chelsea when they were looking for strikers, they paid way over the odds for strikers who have turned out to be anything but. Hopefully Arsenal owners will not be so stupid to do the same as United and Chelsea.
 
Man United and Spurs will contest the Europa league final. Have to admit that it is such an embarrassment to the tournament that both finalists are near their leagues relegation zone.

Spurs should be favourites because they have beaten United 3 times this season.
 
  • Wow
Reactions: pachyderm
Man United and Spurs will contest the Europa league final. Have to admit that it is such an embarrassment to the tournament that both finalists are near their leagues relegation zone.

Spurs should be favourites because they have beaten United 3 times this season.
I was really rooting for Athletic today...
 
  • Like
Reactions: brucemr
I’m English and I didn’t want Spurs or United to win.
Neither deserve CL football next season.
So, how is the setup now?

England got one of the 2 extra spots in next year's Champion's League, so the 5th placed team was supposed to get that.

Will England keep that AND get a sixth place to the winner of Spurs/United? And potentially seventh if Chelsea falls out of the top 5 but managed to win their European final?
 
So, how is the setup now?

England got one of the 2 extra spots in next year's Champion's League, so the 5th placed team was supposed to get that.

Will England keep that AND get a sixth place to the winner of Spurs/United? And potentially seventh if Chelsea falls out of the top 5 but managed to win their European final?
I am sure if that was to happen there would be complaints from many European clubs and leagues and thus force UEFA to look at changing the eligibility rules again.
 
A question to Arsenal fans: If Arsenal finish 2nd in the league and having got to the champion league semi final, would you consider this season a failure because the club has not won a trophy? I ask because I was reading a football article this morning (UK's free Metro paper) about Arsenal's manager not having won anything in 5 years (won the FA cup in his first year) and thus this means he could be forced out the club.

Do you therefore agree with the article that this season is a failure and he should be sacked?
 
A question to Arsenal fans: If Arsenal finish 2nd in the league and having got to the champion league semi final, would you consider this season a failure because the club has not won a trophy? I ask because I was reading a football article this morning (UK's free Metro paper) about Arsenal's manager not having won anything in 5 years (won the FA cup in his first year) and thus this means he could be forced out the club.

Do you therefore agree with the article that this season is a failure and he should be sacked?
Well, I can't speak for them, but as a fan of THE MASSIVE I can safely say that not getting relegated back to League 1 and being mid pack is a huge success.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Scepticalscribe
So, how is the setup now?

England got one of the 2 extra spots in next year's Champion's League, so the 5th placed team was supposed to get that.

Will England keep that AND get a sixth place to the winner of Spurs/United? And potentially seventh if Chelsea falls out of the top 5 but managed to win their European final?
No. Whoever wins the Europa League final gets a CL spot at the expense of who is fifth I believe who will get a Europa League spot instead.
If Chelsea win the Europa Conference League but finish outside of the CL spots, they get a Europa League spot.
As they will get a Europa League spot from the PL position (assuming they finish outside the top four) and winning the final, the extra spot goes to the next in the league.

I think there will be 10 English sides in Europe altogether next season.
Then 10 sides hoping to avoid relegation!
 
A question to Arsenal fans: If Arsenal finish 2nd in the league and having got to the champion league semi final, would you consider this season a failure because the club has not won a trophy? I ask because I was reading a football article this morning (UK's free Metro paper) about Arsenal's manager not having won anything in 5 years (won the FA cup in his first year) and thus this means he could be forced out the club.

Do you therefore agree with the article that this season is a failure and he should be sacked?
It is a failure.

I may come across as arrogant or entitled here. But qualifying for the champions league is not a bonus, its an expectation (yes we only recently got back in blah blah)
City are also in the UCL places and a semi-final, yet when Pep was asked the question if they can be considered to have had a successful season he categorically said No.

History doesn't remember who got to semi-finals or finished second unless its a comment in passing. The record books remember those who won trophies. You can argue about context but thats the game. And everyone knows it.
ETH spent what...£100m less? assembled a poorer squad, yet still won 2 trophies in back to back seasons. Yes there's added context. Yes they are currently a terrible team. But history will remember Utd winning the EFL cup in 2023 and FA Cup in 2024. And thats that.
I remember the 2005 FA Cup. We were dominated and played off the park by Utd, but we won on penalties. If you ask Google/Bing/Fan/Pundit who won the 2005 FA Cup? the answer is Arsenal with Viera holding the trophy. Thats it.

I've been listening to the chatter and reactions, and he (Arteta) is now officially under pressure. And i think that pressure will ramp up further if Spurs win the Europa League. ALL our so-called rivals have or have had something to play for.
I think even he knows, based on what he's been coming out with recently. I feel for him because he's worked really hard and he genuinely loves the club. And i wish him all the success still. But he needs to read the room.
Its a results business and objectively he simply hasn't delivered. The board haven't helped him at times either. And they seem tone deaf...releasing new merch on the back of a European semi-final loss.

It's starting to feel like Southgate/England at Arsenal...always close but never the cigar.
 
Last edited:
No. Whoever wins the Europa League final gets a CL spot at the expense of who is fifth I believe who will get a Europa League spot instead.
If Chelsea win the Europa Conference League but finish outside of the CL spots, they get a Europa League spot.
As they will get a Europa League spot from the PL position (assuming they finish outside the top four) and winning the final, the extra spot goes to the next in the league.

I think there will be 10 English sides in Europe altogether next season.
Then 10 sides hoping to avoid relegation!

Everything you said correct, except the Europa winner CL is not at the expense of PL 5th team. It’s in addition. Ie, England will have 6 CL spots next season.
 
I wonder how many West Ham fans will be hoping either Man United or Spurs fail to improve on their positions in the league and thus beast West Ham's honour of being the lowest team in Europe to win a European trophy (2022/23 Conference league when they were 14th in the league). 3 games left, United are in 15th, Spurs in 16th.

I see many football reporters are calling this the most embarrassing UEFA trophy game ever because of how low in the league both finalists are.
 
A question to Arsenal fans: If Arsenal finish 2nd in the league and having got to the champion league semi final, would you consider this season a failure because the club has not won a trophy? ......
To a certain degree, yes, I would consider it something of a failure, but, the way the post - and question - are both expressed is too blunt, too lacking in nuance, too lacking in subtlety.

However, I large agree with the sentiments expressed by @Alphazoid, whose post I have taken the liberty of quoting in full.
Do you therefore agree with the article that this season is a failure
There is a difference between "failure", and "relative failure", "absolute failure" "utter failure", and "comparative failure".

On the one hand - by the crude metric of success as measured in securing or winning trophies, titles, silverware, - yes, the season is a failure.

However, as a trajectory, that of a team that is gradually being built, being constructed, or crafted, finally coming together - and playing as a visible unit to a coherent vision, or plan, something which is never the result of a single season, or even, of two or three seasons - then, no, the season is not a failure.

Arsenal are improving, but, so, too, are their opponents.

Rather than a lack of silverware, or titles, what concerns me more is Mikel Arteta's defensiveness, and delusions, - unfortunately, and notwithstanding anything stated by Arteta during his post match press conference - Arsenal were not the better team over the two legs of the Champion's League semi-final.

Even more than that, what concerns me is his clear inability to learn from his mistakes.

Over this season, Arsenal have drawn 13 games: At an elite level, this is utterly unacceptable, especially as an embarrassing number of those draws came from leads that they had allowed to let slip.

Worse still, while Arsenal are good - or, rather, have been good - at scoring from set pieces, when their set-piece maestro (Gabriel Magalhaes) is absent through injury, their capacity to score from set pieces will clearly be compromised.

Worst of all, of course, is the fact that the dogs in the street know - and have known for at least three seasons - that Arsenal have difficulty scoring goals from open play; gifted midfielders - playmakers, midfield generals - cannot be expected to compensate for this deficiency, and creating good chances - while praiseworthy - means little if these good chances cannot be converted into goals.

The fact that Arsenal have not seen fit to address this matter - not seriously - has cost them, not just the title, but their ability to mount any sort of a serious challenge.

Last season they chased the title to the wire, and the previous season, they led the table for much of the season.

However, this season, at no stage have they seriously challenged for the title.
and he should be sacked?
No.
It is a failure.

I may come across as arrogant or entitled here. But qualifying for the champions league is not a bonus, its an expectation (yes we only recently got back in blah blah)
City are also in the UCL places and a semi-final, yet when Pep was asked the question if they can be considered to have had a successful season he categorically said No.

History doesn't remember who got to semi-finals or finished second unless its a comment in passing. The record books remember those who won trophies. You can argue about context but thats the game. And everyone knows it.
ETH spent what...£100m less? assembled a poorer squad, yet still won 2 trophies in back to back seasons. Yes there's added context. Yes they are currently a terrible team. But history will remember Utd winning the EFL cup in 2023 and FA Cup in 2024. And thats that.
I remember the 2005 FA Cup. We were dominated and played off the park by Utd, but we won on penalties. If you ask Google/Bing/Fan/Pundit who won the 2005 FA Cup? the answer is Arsenal with Viera holding the trophy. Thats it.

I've been listening to the chatter and reactions, and he (Arteta) is now officially under pressure. And i think that pressure will ramp up further if Spurs win the Europa League. ALL our so-called rivals have or have had something to play for.
I think even he knows, based on what he's been coming out with recently. I feel for him because he's worked really hard and he genuinely loves the club. And i wish him all the success still. But he needs to read the room.
Its a results business and objectively he simply hasn't delivered. The board haven't helped him at times either. And they seem tone deaf...releasing new merch on the back of a European semi-final loss.

It's starting to feel like Southgate/England at Arsenal...always close but never the cigar.
Well said.

A thoughtful, well-argued post, with which I am broadly in agreement.
 
  • Like
Reactions: brucemr
I wonder how many West Ham fans will be hoping either Man United or Spurs fail to improve on their positions in the league and thus beast West Ham's honour of being the lowest team in Europe to win a European trophy (2022/23 Conference league when they were 14th in the league). 3 games left, United are in 15th, Spurs in 16th.

I see many football reporters are calling this the most embarrassing UEFA trophy game ever because of how low in the league both finalists are.
Not really bothered tbh. The reason we finished so poorly in the league was we ran out of steam. Because we progressed in Europe we prioritised those matches over the PL. we simply didn’t have a big enough squad for both.
Man Utd and Spurs are richer clubs than us, so as nice as it would be to finish above them this year, I’m kind of done with the season already. Hopefully Potter can work some magic over the summer (pun intended!).
 
Not really bothered tbh. The reason we finished so poorly in the league was we ran out of steam. Because we progressed in Europe we prioritised those matches over the PL. we simply didn’t have a big enough squad for both.
Man Utd and Spurs are richer clubs than us, so as nice as it would be to finish above them this year, I’m kind of done with the season already. Hopefully Potter can work some magic over the summer (pun intended!).
Now, granted, it is entirely possible that my feelings - (not my thoughts, they remain the same irrespective of which team wins, but I am prepared to admit, or concede, that had Arsenal cantered to the title with such ease, my feelings and thoughts on this subject matter would not have been in harmony) - would have been different had Arsenal claimed the title (an inner snarky voice coolly reminds me that this would, indeed, have been the case).

However, I do think that this season there is a lack of narrative tension - the three relegated teams - all three of them - have been relegated with almost a month of the season remaining, and Liverpool's title success was wrapped up with an equal margin of ease, an outcome that had been obvious for weeks, if not months.

I remember seasons where relegation battles were ferocious, tense fights, a time when, perhaps, three - maybe, even four, - teams fought fiercely until the very last minute over which two of the three should suffer relegation (one team is usually well relegated by the final few weeks of the season), and I recall title contests - or challenges (last season's for example) which went down to the wire.

Apart from the matches which will decide the remaining European places (and which teams shall succeed in qualifying for which particular European competitions), there is really very little to play for in these last remaining matches of the season, a situation which robs the competition of much of the enjoyment, and pleasure that it can offer.

Now, obviously, I think that this is a reflection (a fairly appalling one, in truth) of the growing, and increasing, inequality - and gulf, and chasm in wealth and resources between the top teams and those that lie below them - of not just the entire league, but, also, of the Premiership itself.

Until relatively recently, one needed to amass around 40 points over the course of a season to guarantee survival. And there have been teams that still went down, (not many), having amassed 40 points.

However, over the past two seasons - each of the two seasons, a season whereby, unusually and unfortunately, all three promoted teams suffered relegation and an immediate return to the Championship - the three promoted (and relegated) teams barely reached thirty points, and this season, none of the three already relegated teams have reached twenty five points.

Likewise, at the very top of the table, some (not this season, granted) of the teams that won the title have accumulated a truly astounding number of points, the sort of season that leaves very little margin for error, or mistake, for any other team, not if they hope to offer any sort of a serious challenge.

A league that is uncompetitive at both top and bottom is clearly, not just manifestly and monstrously (and increasingly) unequal, but, is also a lot less interesting (and/or exciting) from the perspective of the fan, or viewer.
 
Last edited:
Now, granted, it is entirely possible that my feelings - (not my thoughts, they remain the same irrespective of who wins, but I am prepared to admit, or concede, that had Arsenal cantered to the title with such ease, my feelings and thoughts on this subject matter would not have been in harmony) - would have been different had Arsenal claimed the title (an inner snarky voice coolly reminds me that this would, indeed, have been the case).

However, I do think that this season there is a lack of narrative tension - the three relegated teams - all three of them - have been relegated with almost a month of the season remaining, and Liverpool's title success was wrapped up with an equal margin of ease, an outcome that had been obvious for weeks, if not months.

I remember seasons where relegation battles were ferocious, tense fights, a time when, perhaps, three - maybe, even four, - teams fought fiercely until the very last minute over which two of the three should suffer relegation (one team is usually well relegated by the final few weeks of the season), and I recall title contests - or challenges (last season's for example) which went down to the wire.

Apart from the matches which will decide the remaining European places (and which teams shall succeed in qualifying for which particular European competitions), there is really very little to play for in these last remaining matches of the season, a situation which robs the competition of much of the enjoyment, and pleasure that it can offer.

Now, obviously, I think that this is a reflection (a fairly appalling one, in truth) of the growing, and increasing, inequality - and gulf, and chasm in wealth and resources between the top teams and those that lie below them - of not just the entire league, but, also, of the Premiership itself.

Until relatively recently, one needed to amass around 40 points over the course of a season to guarantee survival. And there have been teams that still went down, (not many), having amassed 40 points.

However, over the past two seasons - each of the two seasons, a season whereby, unusually and unfortunately, all three promoted teams suffered relegation and an immediate return to the Championship - the three promoted (and relegated) teams barely reached thirty points, and this season, none of the three already relegated teams have reached twenty five points.

Likewise, at the very top of the table, some (not this season, granted) of the teams that won the title have accumulated a truly astounding number of points, the sort of season that leaves very little margin for error, or mistake, for any other team, not if they hope to offer any sort of a serious challenge.

A league that is uncompetitive at both top and bottom is clearly, not just manifestly and monstrously (and increasingly) unequal, but, is also a lot less interesting (and/or exciting) from the perspective of the fan, or viewer.
Agreed. Unfortunately with 10 or 11 clubs in Europe next season that gulf will only grow. The competitions are just designed to keep the money flowing into the top clubs whilst the bottom clubs do all they can to secure the guarantee of PL football next season.

Anyway happily we are a goal up at half time. Hopefully we can hold on for the win and leapfrog United in the league (not that it matters).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Scepticalscribe
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.