The Camera Plateau: What's New With the iPhone 17 Pro Cameras

[EugW]

Because it is 8x optical, just not simplistic optical as defined on our single-lens Nikons. Some folks just need to whine apparently.

FWIW as a pro photog I considered the $5k Nikon D2x to be the first of my Nikons with fully pro-usable captures, at 12 MP size [approximating scans of 35mm film]. My extensive testing circa 2005 suggested that above ~10 MP size allowed digital captures to be generally usable in pro work. So the 12 MP Apple uses for claiming 8x fits that very approximate personal standard of mine.

Well, the Nikon D2X sensor is APS-C, which is GINORMOUS when compared to the iPhone 17 Pro's 1/2.55" telephoto sensor, and the iPhone 17 Pro's telephoto sensor is in turn way bigger than the iPhone 16 Pro Max's 1/3.06" telephoto sensor.

A 17 Pro Max 8X crop tele image is only 25% the size of the 17 Pro's telephoto sensor, and 39% the size of the 16 Pro Max's telephoto sensor.

 

[Allen_Wentz]

I knew that 8x zoom was too good to be true. It’s a digital zoom from the 4x optical.

The 18 megapixels front camera is also a lie since that’s it’s resolution as a SQUARE. It’s then cropped to portrait or landscape, probably at 12mpx just like the previous generations of iPhones.

Finally, the flash and LiDAR are now far from the cameras for design purposes.
I expect poorer performances. The LiDAR scan will have a non-negligible offset with the actual picture.

Sheesh. FYI the farther the flash is from the lens the better from a photographic standpoint, not "far from the cameras for design purposes." Did you think all those wedding photogs carry around unwieldy flash brackets on their Nikons "for design purposes?"

 

[TracesOfArsenic]

I reckon they were kicking this term "plateau" around internally regarding the interest/improvements in iPhone over the last decade, then marketing overheard it and hijacked it.

 

[Allen_Wentz]

Well, the Nikon D2X sensor is APS-C, which is GINORMOUS when compared to the iPhone 17 Pro's 1/2.55" telephoto sensor, and the iPhone 17 Pro's telephoto sensor is in turn way bigger than the iPhone 16 Pro Max's 1/3.06" telephoto sensor.

View attachment 2546867

A 17 Pro Max 8X crop tele image is only 25% the size of the 17 Pro's telephoto sensor, and 39% the size of the 16 Pro Max's telephoto sensor.

What is your point? Just picking nits? No one is claiming that larger pixels do not have differences from smaller pixels. Do you disagree with the competence of this capture that claims effective 13mm-200mm equivalence that was shown at the keynote?


Note that personally I will only fully believe any of it after I test the iPhone 17 Pros. But based on past Apple performance I expect the three cameras to work well together, better this year than in the past. And I expect the single-camera Air to be a significant step down in camera competence.

 

[EugW]

What is your point? Just picking nits? No one is claiming that larger pixels do not have differences from smaller pixels. Do you disagree with the competence of this capture that claims effective 200mm equivalence that was shown at the keynote?
View attachment 2546880

My point is that your experience with pixel counts on an APS-C sensor on a semi-pro / pro dSLR is not really applicable when it comes to pixel counts on mobile phone camera sensors. It's not an apples to Apples comparison, as it were.

BTW, my guess is not too many pros will be wanting to use the 8X crop much in low light.

 

[Allen_Wentz]

So all in all, it sounds like the 8x zoom on the 17 Pro might only be slightly better than the 5x zoom on the 16 Pro. But for the range between 2x and 5x, the 17 Pro should be quite a bit better than the 16 Pro. Fair statement?

Yes - - but in another sense not really. Defining smartphone captures by simplistic specs is just wrong. We need to real-world test each new generation because the tiny iPhone Pro camera devices have three cameras that interact and present image captures to us. We will not know what magic Apple put together until we actually hold it in our hands and use it.

 

[Allen_Wentz]

My point is that your experience with pixel counts on an APS-C sensor on a semi-pro / pro dSLR is not really applicable when it comes to pixel counts on mobile phone camera sensors. It's not an apples to Apples comparison, as it were.

BTW, my guess is not too many pros will be wanting to use the 8X crop much in low light.

"BTW, my guess is not too many pros will be wanting to use the 8X crop much in low light." Safe bet! But the point is that in good light it will likely be reasonably viable, just like the professionally lighted example from the keynote.

 

[adrianlondon]

I used to own dSLRs but all this talk of cropping still being an optical zoom confuses me.

Assuming the scene I'm wanting to photograph is relatively consistent (such that metering over a wider area vs metering over a central area makes little difference) ...

what's the difference between me taking an 8x "optical zoomed" picture at 12MP and taking a standard one at 4x and cropping the central part myself using any photo editing tool.

 

[EugW]

I used to own dSLRs but all this talk of cropping still being an optical zoom confuses me.

Assuming the scene I'm wanting to photograph is relatively consistent (such that metering over a wider area vs metering over a central area makes little difference) ...

what's the difference between me taking an 8x "optical zoomed" picture at 12MP and taking a standard one at 4x and cropping the central part myself using any photo editing tool.

The difference is that it's a PITA. Most average people would rather just frame and meter at 8X 12 MP and shoot at 8X 12 MP rather than try to do all that in the centre of a 4X 48 MP frame with manual cropping later. However, the bonus here is that the 8X 12 MP image does not include interpolated pixels. In contrast, a 5X 12 MP sensor framed and shot at 8X 12 MP would include lots of interpolated pixels.

I liken it to the discussion of APS-C cameras vs full-frame. I have a bunch of full frame EOS lenses from my 35 mm EOS film days but now use them with APS-C EOS cameras. Although it's not completely comparable (eg. depth of field, etc.), I add a 1.6X "zoom" factor to all the focal lengths printed on the full frame lens bodies. So, my 70-200 EF L zoom becomes a 112-320 mm zoom, and my 400 mm EF L tele becomes a 640 mm tele.

 

[adrianlondon]

The difference is that it's a PITA. Most average people would rather just frame and meter at 8X 12 MP and shoot at 8X 12 MP rather than try to do all that in the centre of a 4X 48 MP frame with manual cropping later. However, the bonus here is that the 8X 12 MP image does not include interpolated pixels.

But a 48MP photo cropped down to 12MP would also not have interpolated pixels, right? Plus, I could decide later I actually only want 7x or 6x or a wider view whereas if I take a 8x photo I can't "zoom back out" later.

Does the lens ramp down from 48MP to 12MP as I zoom in?

On my current iPhone 11, I never zoom when taking photos unless I really do need to meter a central frame, and just crop in the Photos app later. Maybe I need to get with the new tech - my phone is 6 years old after all.

I'm still weighing up whether to get the Pro or not 😁 So far, it's having a tele lens which is swaying me. To a lesser extent, LiDAR and a larger screen (I'd get the Max) may be useful.

 

[Allen_Wentz]

But a 48MP photo cropped down to 12MP would also not have interpolated pixels, right? Plus, I could decide later I actually only want 7x or 6x or a wider view whereas if I take a 8x photo I can't "zoom back out" later.

Does the lens ramp down from 48MP to 12MP as I zoom in?

On my current iPhone 11, I never zoom when taking photos unless I really do need to meter a central frame, and just crop in the Photos app later. Maybe I need to get with the new tech - my phone is 6 years old after all.

I'm still weighing up whether to get the Pro or not 😁 So far, it's having a tele lens which is swaying me. To a lesser extent, LiDAR and a larger screen (I'd get the Max) may be useful.

IMO we cannot look at it simplistically like we do with our DSLRs and single-lens big heavy pieces of glass. With our iPhone Pro 17s we will have three 48 MP lenses and computational photography. What does that mean? IDK.

However IMO we should not look at it simplistically the same way as we do with our DSLRs and our decades of SLR/DSLR experience. We need to real world test these spectacular, rapidly evolving new image capture tools and see what works and what does not.

I recommend the iPhone Pros in strongest possible terms to anyone interested in image capture.

 

[Hammerd]

Sheesh. FYI the farther the flash is from the lens the better from a photographic standpoint, not "far from the cameras for design purposes." Did you think all those wedding photogs carry around unwieldy flash brackets on their Nikons "for design purposes?"

I’m explicitly taking about the LiDAR

 

[EugW]

But a 48MP photo cropped down to 12MP would also not have interpolated pixels, right? Plus, I could decide later I actually only want 7x or 6x or a wider view whereas if I take a 8x photo I can't "zoom back out" later.

Does the lens ramp down from 48MP to 12MP as I zoom in?

On my current iPhone 11, I never zoom when taking photos unless I really do need to meter a central frame, and just crop in the Photos app later. Maybe I need to get with the new tech - my phone is 6 years old after all.

I'm still weighing up whether to get the Pro or not 😁 So far, it's having a tele lens which is swaying me. To a lesser extent, LiDAR and a larger screen (I'd get the Max) may be useful.

You are in the minority. Most people can't be bothered most of the time, including myself.

I'm getting the Pro Max for sure. I've been waiting 5 years with my 12 Pro Max for a decent tele with non-interpolated centre crop, and now we have it. Lately I've been on about a 4 year upgrade cycle, but decided to wait an extra year specifically for this new 48 MP 4X tele (although I had predicted it would be a 3.5X). Furthermore, there's nothing stopping you from doing your own crops of 4X pix. An added bonus is that it is now a 1/2.55" sensor which is a 56% increase in area compared to the older tele sensor on the 16 Pro Max. Not only do you have way more pixels to work with at 48 MP, you also have way more area.

In fact, all of the lenses will be a nice upgrade compared to your old 11 series iPhone.