The Dark Side of Apple, Do You Contribute?

[Plutonius]

That's a possibility but you can not say that for sure. Couldn't Foxconn just as easily hire more people to meet demand, reduce wages and not put as much stress on current workers? In terms of the situation I'm not sure if they would be likely to fire. The suggestion made was not to stop buying products but to just reduce the demand so the workers won't be overworked.

Foxconn is profit driven. If you reduce the demand, you should not expect Foxconn to lower productivity levels for the workers. Foxconn will instead reduce their workforce and expect the workers who are left to continue at their current productivity levels.

 

[sumone]

Against my better judgement I will reply to this. When did I insult you and call you childish names? A little immature don't you think? By calling names you really end up invalidating any claims that you make.

Also you are making up things, like in this statement: "You clearly are blinded by your loyalty to the company and refuse to see any differently."

A computer is a tool. I am not loyal to a tool, I simply use it to get a job done.

Like I said, please read the link I posted and you will see that in no way am I "justifying" buying something that uses components manufactured by a Chinese company.

You are a bag full of contradictions. The first comment you made on this post was insulting and offensive on so many levels. I hate to beat a dead horse but you clearly have misunderstood the entire point of my post and you continue to misunderstand. The point of my post is to bring to light how excessive consumerism is having profound negative affects on workers. From the very start you immediately jumped into defense mode with the "workers are not slaves" this is contradiction number one. If your biggest concern is to support a company who implements measures to maintain an adequate work environment for all those affiliated with them then why even bring up the point that the Foxconn workers aren't slaves? It's completely irrelevant slaves or no slaves if Apple is truly concerned about the well-being of those who produce their products their worker status should be a non factor. In keeping with that, once again if your main concern is how much of an effort a company makes to maintain an adequate work environment why say that Apple isn't the only company that has turned a blinds eye? It's like your contradicting yourself.

All you keep coming up with is excuses and justifications for their actions. Whether you want to admit that its blind loyalty is up to you but I can say that I have no loyalty to any company that i'm not heavily invested in and I have no problem with calling them out for their wrong doings. Fact is big business's are always out for themselves and they will try to protect themselves until the very end. Fact is if Apple was really that concerned about human rights there is no way they would continue to use Foxconn as a vendor. Apple may implement measures to "improve" the work environment but if their number one concern was the people they would pull out immediately and refuse to contribute to the exploitation of chinese workers. Obviously it's not that big of a concern.

But all of this is truly irrelevant because as I already stated this wasn't the point of my post. So since you are unable to infer the point of my post I will outline it for you so there will be no further confusion. My intent is to focus specifically on what is going on at Foxconn and how companies and consumers contribute. I don't care whether Apple, HP, Nokia or ZipBamBloo Inc. "work toward improving conditions" I care about the specific conditions that are going on today. So Again Chrono, and let's see if you can actually answer this question directly without including a whole bunch of justifications and excuses, are you or are you not willing to take an individual step toward putting an end to the conditions of the Chinese workers at Foxconn? Yes or No?

----------

There was an expression in Southeast Asia dating back to the 60's, that I can't remember exactly, but went something like "save us from people who want to save us from capitalism."

It's important to remember that these factory jobs whose conditions offend us are in huge demand among the rural poor in China and have increased their standard of living enormously. The idea that by our standards we find the working conditions offensive thus would work to take their jobs away (by not buying the products they're making) is the height of arrogance.

Frankly, I find it more arrogant that you believe that without western influence these people would have no shot at increasing their standards of living. But once again because you fail to read, the suggestion was not to take away jobs but to just reduce demand so that Foxconn employees would not be overworked. It was stated in the article and the interview that taking away jobs was not at all the intent.

 

[sumone]

This is simply the nature of consumerism and the modern economic system.

Apple is not different than other companies. It's true that people don't line up when HP puts out a new model of laptop... but millions of students on a tight budget buy those cheap HP laptops during back to school season.

But it's not just technology. Go to your local dollar store. All those cheap products come from China, or somewhere similar. Those factory workers are probably treated even worse than those at Foxconn. And what about the environmental impact of producing so much cheap, typically disposable plastic junk?

This is simply the world we live in.

Yes, buying less will help in some ways, but it's more about buying responsibly. That where consumerism comes into play. If you just want the latest and greatest and buy every upgrade simply because it exists... well, you're the ideal consumer. Buying things mindlessly. If you actually need a new feature in a product because it benefits you, than buy the product.

Everything everybody does has an impact on the economy, the environment, and the world. And all of these factors are catching up with us faster and faster.

But in the end, how you conduct yourself is your responsibility. Your impact and your contributions to the world, but positive and negative, are all your responsibility. Learn as much about everything as you can, and then choose your actions based on your mentality and morality.

While I disagree with the beginning of your post, because as I have stated numerous times in this thread it's not about whether "company x" does it too that's not an excuse the point of the matter is that it exist and it's happening, However I do feel as though you more than any one else in this thread really understood the point of my post.

I wanted to bring to light the issue of excessive consumerism which often is brought about by "buyer ignorance". It was not about making up justifications and excuses for the company or the individual, many people seemed to miss this. I wanted people to know about what was going on at Foxconn if they were not aware already and to take a look at themselves and how they may contribute. You really hit the nail on the head when you mentioned buyer responsibility. I really think its important that you (the consumer) understand how your actions may affect others, as you already put it so wonderfully "Everything that everybody does has an impact" and people need to understand that.

I was curious how aware many consumers here actually are. Whether you wish to make an effort to improve what goes on in China is entirely up to you but it's better to be informed and knowing how you contribute than not be aware at all. I asked whether you feel as though you contribute mostly to get people to think what role they play in this. Sometimes when your not directly involved you don't realize that you might be apart of the problem. Having to acknowledge your role you are admitting or coming to terms with how you may contribute.

The justifications and excuses that some people came up with were in my opinion disgusting to say the least. Those who spent their time trying to justify clearly missed the point. Its not about making excuses its just about acknowledging and accepting what's going on.

I truly applaud you Sackvillenb for recognizing that and having by far the most profound post in this whole thread. Everyone else can view and bash this thread however you like but hopefully you walk away from it and just consider some of the things Sackvillenb said and hopefully become more informed consumers if you are not already.

 

[chrono1081]

You are a bag full of contradictions.

How did I contradict myself? Examples please.

The first comment you made on this post was insulting and offensive on so many levels.

How? You asked for thoughts on if upgrading often would help improve working conditions in China and I said no it was a silly idea.

I hate to beat a dead horse but you clearly have misunderstood the entire point of my post and you continue to misunderstand.

If you hate to beat a dead horse why did you start a thread about Foxconn? Not to mention I completely understood your first post, and told you what I thought on my first post.

The point of my post is to bring to light how excessive consumerism is having profound negative affects on workers. From the very start you immediately jumped into defense mode with the "workers are not slaves" this is contradiction number one.

How is this a contradiction. Anything you buy will have components made in China, its unavoidable. That is a country who is based around manufacturing but you don't seem to understand that. No matter what you buy, it will have something made by Chinese workers. Why can't you understand that? Also the workers are not slaves, they go work at Foxconn because they want/need to to survive, just like anyone else in this world. They are getting paid for their work and can leave at any time, which means it is not slavery.

If your biggest concern is to support a company who implements measures to maintain an adequate work environment for all those affiliated with them then why even bring up the point that the Foxconn workers aren't slaves? It's completely irrelevant slaves or no slaves if Apple is truly concerned about the well-being of those who produce their products their worker status should be a non factor. In keeping with that, once again if your main concern is how much of an effort a company makes to maintain an adequate work environment why say that Apple isn't the only company that has turned a blinds eye? It's like your contradicting yourself.

I'm pretty sure you do not understand what contradictory means. Again, everything you buy most likely has some component made in China. There are places in China with bad working conditions, and some with better working conditions. Since striking a deal with Foxconn Apple has helped raised the standard at the Foxconn plant for employees, but since you didn't read the link I posted you don't understand that. So which is it? Have Apple do nothing? Or have Apple work to improve standards at a plant they don't even own? Take your pick. I personally love that Apple is working with Foxconn to improve working conditions.

All you keep coming up with is excuses and justifications for their actions. Whether you want to admit that its blind loyalty is up to you but I can say that I have no loyalty to any company that i'm not heavily invested in and I have no problem with calling them out for their wrong doings.

Wrong doing is helping improve working conditions at a factory they do not own? Interesting...

Fact is if Apple was really that concerned about human rights there is no way they would continue to use Foxconn as a vendor. Apple may implement measures to "improve" the work environment but if their number one concern was the people they would pull out immediately and refuse to contribute to the exploitation of chinese workers. Obviously it's not that big of a concern.

Again, read the link I posted, you would realize everything you said above is rubbish. Apple picked a supplier that could do the job, then they ran audits to see how employees were treated, something they in no way had to do. They weren't happy with what they found so they used their industry muscle to force change for better working conditions. That is a GOOD thing.

But all of this is truly irrelevant because as I already stated this wasn't the point of my post. So since you are unable to infer the point of my post I will outline it for you so there will be no further confusion. My intent is to focus specifically on what is going on at Foxconn and how companies and consumers contribute. I don't care whether Apple, HP, Nokia or ZipBamBloo Inc. "work toward improving conditions" I care about the specific conditions that are going on today. So Again Chrono, and let's see if you can actually answer this question directly without including a whole bunch of justifications and excuses, are you or are you not willing to take an individual step toward putting an end to the conditions of the Chinese workers at Foxconn? Yes or No?

----------

So lets see, end Foxconn and put over a million people out of work? Stupid idea if you ask me. Again, they are there voluntarily but you don't seem to understand this.

As for a step towards ending the bad working conditions, Apple is already doing that but you can't seem to give credit where credit is due. Change doesn't happen overnight.

 

[Aragornii]

...you believe that without western influence these people would have no shot at increasing their standards of living.

The statement that Western jobs have increased the standard of living of rural Chinese is not the same as saying that without Western influence these people would have no shot at improving their standard of living, so your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired. The fact is that from 1995 to 2005 real wages of Chinese workers increased 400%, an enormous standard of living increase and one the Chinese had failed to accomplish under the first 50 years of communist rule. Your fantasy counterfactuals are meaningless.

But once again because you fail to read,

That was my only response to this thread, so I am not the one failing to read.

the suggestion was not to take away jobs but to just reduce demand so that Foxconn employees would not be overworked. It was stated in the article and the interview that taking away jobs was not at all the intent.

My comment was that reducing demand for the output of a factory will reduce in equal proportion the number of people employed by that factory, in which case you aren't doing the people who are desperate for those jobs any favors. You can choose not to believe that if you wish, but unless you have any proof that Chinese factories would for some reason elect to reduce productivity as a response to declining demand and revenues, you're just blowing smoke.

Frankly, I find it more arrogant that you believe that...

More arrogant than what? When did I say or imply something was arrogant? I didn't say anything insulting in my post nor did I address you directly, and you immediately address me with an insult? You're a troll, and by the sound of it a not particularly intelligent one at that. Critical thinking is a skill you apparently do not possess. If you received any higher education, I suggest you ask for a refund.

 

[sumone]

snip

Chrono, Chrono, Chrono....maybe you should read my previous post because you still don't get it. You are still missing the entire point. You and I are arguing two different things. I don't know why you refuse to answer my question. While you annoy and exhaust me perhaps you are the type of person my post was truly intended for.

The point of my post was to get people to think about their roles in what's going on in Foxconn and as well as other companies that have low wages and poor working conditions for employees. I am not here to argue whether Apple is working with Foxconn or not, nor am I here to argue what's made in China or not. That's not the point. The only thing I wanted to do was to get consumers to acknowledge their role in all of this.

I may not agree with dukebound's post but I respect it. He said it straight, he acknowledges what's going on and has decided he doesn't care. I also respect Big-TDI-Guy post because he too acknowledged his role and stated that he does make a conscientious effort not to contribute to the things going on in China. That's the only point I'm trying to make. Quit trying to make excuses for Apple, I don't care that's not the point please get past Apple. If you really want to make a point Chrono just answer the question I originally asked you. That's all no further debate just simply answer the question.

 

[sumone]

The statement that Western jobs have increased the standard of living of rural Chinese is not the same as saying that without Western influence these people would have no shot at improving their standard of living, so your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired. The fact is that from 1995 to 2005 real wages of Chinese workers increased 400%, an enormous standard of living increase and one the Chinese had failed to accomplish under the first 50 years of communist rule. Your fantasy counterfactuals are meaningless.





That was my only response to this thread, so I am not the one failing to read.





My comment was that reducing demand for the output of a factory will reduce in equal proportion the number of people employed by that factory, in which case you aren't doing the people who are desperate for those jobs any favors. You can choose not to believe that if you wish, but unless you have any proof that Chinese factories would for some reason elect to reduce productivity as a response to declining demand and revenues, you're just blowing smoke.





More arrogant than what? When did I say or imply something was arrogant? I didn't say anything insulting in my post nor did I address you directly, and you immediately address me with an insult? You're a troll, and by the sound of it a not particularly intelligent one at that. Critical thinking is a skill you apparently do not possess. If you received any higher education, I suggest you ask for a refund.

To be honest with you I really have no desire to argue with you because it's just getting more and more off point.

But first the creation of "western jobs" in China is a form of western influence I don't see why I should have to explain this it should just be obvious.

Second, "once again" wasn't directed toward you it was directed to the fact that I have to keep repeating the same things over and over and over again.

Third, neither you nor I have any proof to support what the result will be so arguing this is a moot point. But as I already stated, the suggestion was not made by me it was a suggestion made in the article.

Fourth, you did make a comment about arrogance feel free to re-read your own post if you have doubts. I guess I could insert some comment here saying that if you are unable to recognize your own words i.e. "height of arrogance comment" you definitely shouldn't make comments on another persons intelligence but then again what would that solve?

Aragornii, I'm not interested in arguing with you so i'm simply going to concede. What ever you believe to be fact is fact and we can just end there.

 

[mscriv]

What a funny thread full of assumptions and speculation on both sides. The arguing has been kind of fun to watch though, especially when it devolves into ridiculous name calling and insults.

 

[dylin]

im a little puzzled by your poll. It was when a new one comes out or when it dies. But then you add in that if it is no longer current. Isnt that the same as saying when a new one comes out. Sorry for being nit-picky about the poll just a little confused.

But to answer the question, whenever my device no longer is able to handle my needs.

 

[conejito]

if there wasn't any western men coming and doing the "business" these girls would likely get into "crime" , have to work in farms for a lot less money, and there villages (they send most of their money back to their families ) would suffer greatly.

Yes, think of the children! If we didn't rape them they might have to go work on a farm!

 

[kreach]

foxconn is a taiwanese company... and major supplier to :

Acer Inc.
Amazon.com
Apple Inc.
ASRock
Barnes & Noble
Intel
Cisco
Hewlett-Packard
Dell
Nintendo
Nokia
Microsoft
MSI
Motorola
Sony Ericsson
Vizio

It has ~ 900,000 employees, a revenue of 110Bil$, and a profit of 2.2 Bill$

Would suggest you start a petition with all of them that you are willing to pay 150$ more for your toy, if they pass on the added cost to foxconn china employees.

 

[Tha Professor]

I will quote one article here on this topic

... since all of us are able to provide help, the obligation to provide it is one that falls on all of us – not just sweatshops. Indeed, to the extent that sweatshops are already providing help and we are not, we are further away from meeting our obligations than they are...

Full article, with links to the initial discussion can be found here

China and other countries are called developing for a reason. Not to forget that China owns big part of USA today, so there is no other way to "help" China than to buy always the newest and greatest... And at the same time do not forget how to stay competitive with them!

 

[Hastings101]

I only replace things when they die.

I think it's almost guaranteed that if you bought an electronic device built within the last 30 years it was made by someone in poor working conditions in various Asian countries.