The Dark Side of Apple, Do You Contribute?

[Abstract]

I think you are looking at this far too subjectively. If demand for all products were reduced not just Apple. However, I think reduced demand for Apple products alone would make a significant impact considering that you don't see the sort of lines for new products when Nokia or HP releases something (save the HP TouchPad firesale).

Yes, but all you'd end up with are employees who get fired due to lack of demand from their factory.

You're not going to reduce the stress on employees by not purchasing or replacing products. You end up with fewer employees, and these remaining employees suffer the same amount of stress. The others who get fired may not be able to survive or pay for things like food.

 

[MacDawg]

I have yet to meet anyone who is consistent in their moral outrage
While they may protest against one thing or group, they are compromised elsewhere

If you walk in this world at all, your feet eventually get dirty

This is nothing new about Apple, this news gets recycled here on MR every few weeks

 

[iJohnHenry]

If you walk in this world at all, your feet eventually get dirty

Guilty. I bought this iMac knowing full-well it was made in China.

On the other side of the scale, I have not set foot in a Wal*Fart in years, for what they do to local workers.

 

[sumone]

Yes, but all you'd end up with are employees who get fired due to lack of demand from their factory.

You're not going to reduce the stress on employees by not purchasing or replacing products. You end up with fewer employees, and these remaining employees suffer the same amount of stress. The others who get fired may not be able to survive or pay for things like food.

That's a possibility but you can not say that for sure. Couldn't Foxconn just as easily hire more people to meet demand, reduce wages and not put as much stress on current workers? In terms of the situation I'm not sure if they would be likely to fire. The suggestion made was not to stop buying products but to just reduce the demand so the workers won't be overworked.

 

[sumone]

Silly idea. Workers can leave Foxconn when they want, its not like they are slaves there, they are paid. Just because it looks bad from our standards doesn't mean its bad by China's standards.

I am all for excellent working conditions, great pay, etc, but that doesn't happen in the real world unfortunately. Not to mention this Foxconn thing has been beaten to death. Apple is not the only company by a longshot that uses Foxconn. Apple also conducts investigations and publishes a report every 6 months or a year, I forget which on their findings.

Wow, this is possibly the biggest "cop-out", "I refuse to accept responsibility" post I have ever read and I am quite disappointed to have seen. It's one thing to say you don't care to fix the problem but don't come up with half baked excuses. First you start off by saying it's the workers fault for enduring it, then you move on to saying that because this has been mentioned many times we should just get over it and then you finalize it by saying its not just Apple so they shouldn't be blamed.

To address your first terrible point, its not about just leaving because they're not slaves. Assuming you're American if you look at American history you will see that we experienced similar situations during the Industrial Revolution. Anyone of those people could have quit their factory jobs because it's not like "they were slaves" the fact was that horrible conditions like that should have never existed and I commend everyone of those people who stood up against it because work place conditions in the U.S. could have been just as bad today had they not.

To address your second point I feel as though the economic situation in the U.S. and abroad has been beaten to death but yet it hasn't stopped the news reporters from talking about it or the protestors from protesting. But I suppose thats how change comes about. If everyone just dropped something because it's been "beaten to death" then the problem would never get solved.

And to address your last ridiculous point. I already stated that Apple wasn't the only company. I highlighted Apple because they are involved and this is a forum dedicated to Apple enthusiast. It is well understood that Apple is not the only one but just because others participate doesn't excuse the actions of another. You're not going to get off for theft because your buddy did it too.

If you don't care about the conditions and you don't care to make an effort to change it that's up to you but trying to justify it is just plain ridiculous.

 

[wordoflife]

...monologist Mike Daisey, suggested that consumers NOT update devices as frequently.

See, that's not going to do jack-squat about the situation. Daisey should be ashamed that he even suggested something as stupid as this, as if it would ever work.

 

[chrono1081]

Wow, this is possibly the biggest "cop-out", "I refuse to accept responsibility" post I have ever read and I am quite disappointed to have seen. It's one thing to say you don't care to fix the problem but don't come up with half baked excuses. First you start off by saying it's the workers fault for enduring it, then you move on to saying that because this has been mentioned many times we should just get over it and then you finalize it by saying its not just Apple so they shouldn't be blamed.

To address your first terrible point, its not about just leaving because they're not slaves. Assuming you're American if you look at American history you will see that we experienced similar situations during the Industrial Revolution. Anyone of those people could have quit their factory jobs because it's not like "they were slaves" the fact was that horrible conditions like that should have never existed and I commend everyone of those people who stood up against it because work place conditions in the U.S. could have been just as bad today had they not.

To address your second point I feel as though the economic situation in the U.S. and abroad has been beaten to death but yet it hasn't stopped the news reporters from talking about it or the protestors from protesting. But I suppose thats how change comes about. If everyone just dropped something because it's been "beaten to death" then the problem would never get solved.

And to address your last ridiculous point. I already stated that Apple wasn't the only company. I highlighted Apple because they are involved and this is a forum dedicated to Apple enthusiast. It is well understood that Apple is not the only one but just because others participate doesn't excuse the actions of another. You're not going to get off for theft because your buddy did it too.

If you don't care about the conditions and you don't care to make an effort to change it that's up to you but trying to justify it is just plain ridiculous.

You really don't understand the picture fully I can see since you think my post is a cop out. Do you have electronic items in your house? Well then you have lots of Foxconn components in your house. You'd be hard pressed to have anything from routers, to printers, to computers, to thermostats in your house that do not have something made by Foxconn. By buying anything electronic you are contributing to the issue.

Second, have you ever read this? I bet you didn't or you wouldn't be here trying to guilt people into not buying products. Read it. It shows Apple has done a lot for workers and is constantly striving for improvements. Dell and HP do similar things but I do not know their extent. Without these companies fighting for rights of workers, who knows where they would still be. Buying Apple products helps improve the conditions these workers face because it forces companies to improve conditions to keep high paying contracts. What is this "dark side" you speak of again?

And again, just because we consider working conditions bad, doesn't mean that its bad by China standards. There are many countries who think the U.S. has bad working conditions because we work evenings, weekends, and 40+ hour weeks with only 2 weeks off a year. To us it doesn't seem bad, but to others it does. I assure you there are a lot worse places to work in China than Foxconn.

 

[sumone]

I bet you didn't or you wouldn't be here trying to guilt people into not buying products.

That statement alone tells me you have missed the entire picture. The fact that you take it as an attempt to "guilt" shows that you feel a sense of wrong doing. People don't feel guilted if they honestly believe that they have done nothing wrong. Instead of accepting the fact you keep coming up with excuses. A report posted by the company on how they do "good" is not a swaying argument. I'm sure Enron had similar reports while they were scamming many people. Like I already said if you want to turn a blinds eye and continue contributing to what goes on over there then go for it but seriously quit trying to justify it. Frankly, I find those who try to justify more sickening then those who acknowledge it and admit that they simply do not care.

 

[chrono1081]

That statement alone tells me you have missed the entire picture. The fact that you take it as an attempt to "guilt" shows that you feel a sense of wrong doing. People don't feel guilted if they honestly believe that they have done nothing wrong. Instead of accepting the fact you keep coming up with excuses. A report posted by the company on how they do "good" is not a swaying argument. I'm sure Enron had similar reports while they were scamming many people. Like I already said if you want to turn a blinds eye and continue contributing to what goes on over there then go for it but seriously quit trying to justify it. Frankly, I find those who try to justify more sickening then those who acknowledge it and admit that they simply do not care.

You really don't know what you are talking about and its obvious. I am done with this conversation. Like I said, READ the report.

And in no way shape or form do I feel guilty about buying from a company like Apple who has standards set in place for the health and safety of its suppliers employees. Thats a GOOD thing incase you still didn't read the posted link.

 

[Big-TDI-Guy]

I do try to buy local, however not much is made here anymore. We've lost our engineering / manufacturing edge - so many things made here are actually inferior to offerings from foreign markets.

Don't get me wrong, there are PLENTY of high-quality products still made stateside, but outside of large item / military / specialized equipment, we're generally behind.

When I can't find a product made here that's good, then I try for places other than China... Though this gets tougher each day.

 

[snberk103]

I do try to buy local, however not much is made here anymore. We've lost our engineering / manufacturing edge - so many things made here are actually inferior to offerings from foreign markets.

Don't get me wrong, there are PLENTY of high-quality products still made stateside, but outside of large item / military / specialized equipment, we're generally behind.

When I can't find a product made here that's good, then I try for places other than China... Though this gets tougher each day.

Interestingly, the US is still the 3rd or 4th largest exporter globally (depending on how you count - Both Germany, and the EU are listed above the US in the rankings).

 

[Big-TDI-Guy]

When I can't buy American, I try for German / Euro and Japan.

Actually I usually find the bridge between quality and origin, as my deciding factors. I have the mindset that if something is very well made, but expensive, I'll get it. I'd rather give up a few of my hard-earned bucks keeping someone else who's passionate about their work going, then saving a couple bucks and blowing it on junk.

 

[*LTD*]

Just read this article online

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/darker-side-apple-human-cost-iproducts-164412176.html

To sum it up many workers at Foxconn experience horrible work conditions as a result of trying to complete demand for various different tech devices by companies like HP, Nokia and Apple. In order to reduce the stress that's put on workers, monologist Mike Daisey, suggested that consumers NOT update devices as frequently. Thoughts?

Good luck.

 

[sumone]

You really don't know what you are talking about and its obvious. I am done with this conversation. Like I said, READ the report.

And in no way shape or form do I feel guilty about buying from a company like Apple who has standards set in place for the health and safety of its suppliers employees. Thats a GOOD thing incase you still didn't read the posted link.

I'm glad you're done because i'm done with you too your a complete idiot. You clearly are blinded by your loyalty to the company and refuse to see any differently. I don't care how much I like a product I have the guts enough to admit when they are doing wrong. I really hope you are employed by Apple otherwise you take pathetic to a whole new level. As I already stated I don't care whether you support it or not but at least man the heck up and quit trying to justify it.

 

[iJohnHenry]

I'm glad you're done because I'm done with you too your a complete idiot.

Citation, please.

 

[rdowns]

I'm glad you're done because i'm done with you too your a complete idiot.

Irony, you gotta love it.

 

[chrono1081]

I'm glad you're done because i'm done with you too your a complete idiot. You clearly are blinded by your loyalty to the company and refuse to see any differently. I don't care how much I like a product I have the guts enough to admit when they are doing wrong. I really hope you are employed by Apple otherwise you take pathetic to a whole new level. As I already stated I don't care whether you support it or not but at least man the heck up and quit trying to justify it.

Against my better judgement I will reply to this. When did I insult you and call you childish names? A little immature don't you think? By calling names you really end up invalidating any claims that you make.

Also you are making up things, like in this statement: "You clearly are blinded by your loyalty to the company and refuse to see any differently."

A computer is a tool. I am not loyal to a tool, I simply use it to get a job done.

Like I said, please read the link I posted and you will see that in no way am I "justifying" buying something that uses components manufactured by a Chinese company. I am saying that I will buy from a company who holds its suppliers accountable and works towards better working environments, which Apple does. Again, that is in the link I posted and if you read it you can see all of the violations they have found, and the corrections they have taken to improve working conditions for the employees of Foxconn (and other suppliers).

It's completely unavoidable in todays world to buy something that doesn't have a component made in China. Instead of coming and griping about it, educate yourself on which companies take the welfare of their suppliers' employees into account and work towards better conditions for them, and buy from those companies.

 

[carlgo]

It sure would be interesting to know what is said about all this around the Boardroom table. Are there any dissenters who argue against total Chinese production?

They have to be getting a little nervous as the subject comes up everywhere these days and Apple is the best known company.

 

[snberk103]

It sure would be interesting to know what is said about all this around the Boardroom table. Are there any dissenters who argue against total Chinese production?

They have to be getting a little nervous as the subject comes up everywhere these days and Apple is the best known company.

I don't believe the risks of assembling systems in China has any greater risk than assembling else where. For example - currently, HDDs are hard to come by because of floods in Thailand; and for a while display supplies were disrupted due to the earthquake in Japan. For products sourced globally, I don't think assembling in China creates any extra risks. Imagine if a US assembly plant had been located in Oklahoma?

As to a perception that "stuff" shouldn't be assembled in China for political/social reasons. It appears that Apple can't make the stuff fast enough. I would argue that the number of people who aren't buying Apple's "made in China" "stuff" - because it was "made in China" must be pretty small.

My belief is that the US wanted free-trade, and pressured many countries into accepting trade-deals - including China (originally using 'gunboat' diplomacy). At the time it was great for the US - lots of new markets to export their stuff to, and highly unsettling for many undeveloped countries. However, after lots of upheaval and societal realignments - many of these former market economies have modernized and have become exporters as well. They are now competing with the US - and the US is having to work harder to stay in the game. It's just part of the global trade game.

 

[Tsuchiya]

Some of the responses in this thread are funny, and I actually laughed at loud to one use of the word "probably". I.e. "they probably get better pay..." I don't know whether it's true or not, but evidence please?

Fact is, Apple is one of the most valuable companies in the world, they have a fiercely loyal fan base, they are admired by pretty much everyone etc.

So all in all, Apple is pretty great. Right now they are in a position most companies can only dream of, and their influence in the market is astounding. They have achieved their gains through being different and going against the grain so to speak.

So to say that it's OK for them to let the Foxconn conditions continue "because other companies do it" is HILARIOUS.

Bottom line is simply that they can make the Foxconn workers lives much better for little effort.

They choose not to.

 

[rmstekel]

Dark Side

The problem, as I view It, is no high demand, the problme is lack of capacity to produce. Actully is good to have such a strong demand, manufactures should acale up their processesm though installing additional assemply lines and additional work force. so, if good manegmente is done, they can still respond to large demand, an also create new job positions.

rodrigo m. from Chile..

 

[snberk103]

Some of the responses in this thread are funny, and I actually laughed at loud to one use of the word "probably". I.e. "they probably get better pay..." I don't know whether it's true or not, but evidence please?

...

Bottom line is simply that they can make the Foxconn workers lives much better for little effort.

They choose not to.

{bolding above added}

Just to be fair, you should probably cite some evidence yourself, eh?

 

[Aragornii]

There was an expression in Southeast Asia dating back to the 60's, that I can't remember exactly, but went something like "save us from people who want to save us from capitalism."

It's important to remember that these factory jobs whose conditions offend us are in huge demand among the rural poor in China and have increased their standard of living enormously. The idea that by our standards we find the working conditions offensive thus would work to take their jobs away (by not buying the products they're making) is the height of arrogance.

 

[Sackvillenb]

This is simply the nature of consumerism and the modern economic system.

Apple is not different than other companies. It's true that people don't line up when HP puts out a new model of laptop... but millions of students on a tight budget buy those cheap HP laptops during back to school season.

But it's not just technology. Go to your local dollar store. All those cheap products come from China, or somewhere similar. Those factory workers are probably treated even worse than those at Foxconn. And what about the environmental impact of producing so much cheap, typically disposable plastic junk?

This is simply the world we live in.

Yes, buying less will help in some ways, but it's more about buying responsibly. That where consumerism comes into play. If you just want the latest and greatest and buy every upgrade simply because it exists... well, you're the ideal consumer. Buying things mindlessly. If you actually need a new feature in a product because it benefits you, than buy the product.

Everything everybody does has an impact on the economy, the environment, and the world. And all of these factors are catching up with us faster and faster.

But in the end, how you conduct yourself is your responsibility. Your impact and your contributions to the world, but positive and negative, are all your responsibility. Learn as much about everything as you can, and then choose your actions based on your mentality and morality.

 

[Tsuchiya]

{bolding above added}

Just to be fair, you should probably cite some evidence yourself, eh?

I'm genuinely interested in the whole Foxconn debate, so I'll go see what I can dig up to support my argument. My initial comment is an educated guess based on the success Apple is seeing right now, and their value to Foxconn (as in what % of Foxconns net profit can be attributed to the business Apple provide). Mix in some amateur business/economics theory and my point seems plausible.

BUT, I'll see what I can dig up in terms of hard evidence to support that.