iPod touch The Debate... Touch vs Activated iPhone

[Scribble1412]

I agree with all that you say, except you haven't considered one thing.
I fear that there is a far greater chance that the iPhone is going to need to be hacked to allow it to work without activation since there will probably be frequent software updates to it (far more frequently than iPod will have). With each update, Apple is likely to disable the hack that activates the iPhone. So you run the risk of owning an expensive paperweight.

The iPod Touch will be limited in its feature set as you mentioned, but at least it will always function (or so I think). I hope the mail, notes, maps/weather widgets get hacked onto the iPod touch...

Maybe I am wrong about all this... any thoughts?

I've considered this. As of now Apple is not forcing anyone to update, or torturing those who haven't. I'd say anytime an update comes out, someone will have it figured out within a week how to re-activate the phone.
In the meantime you can always stick an update behind until its easy enough to take it on yourself. Chances are a pattern will grow and more people will get into finding ways around the activation and with multiple brainpowers working towards that goal it should be fairly quick and painless. There is very VERY little chance that hackers will let these iPhones sit useless without a phone contract. They're quite the tool.


I'm not much of a Mac guy, so I must apologize for the Windows scenerio I'm about to compare to. When Windows XP first came out it sure seemed like they were taking some drastic measures to prevent pirating. The 30 day activation bomb, and taking note of hardware profiles. After while the pirating became popular, and then CD keys were blocked from Windows Updates. Now its all laughed at, and I chuckle everytime my ol tower pc passes ANOTHER Windows Validation.

'Soon enough third party's will come in and sure change up the scene. They always tend to. And like I said before... I doubt the iPhone could ever be left alone.

 

[Scribble1412]

Scribble- are you using your iPhone without activation? (in other words not using the phone on it?) If so, have you noticed any limitations, or difficulties related to faking the activation?

I just finally bit the bullet and made my purchase today. I'll be letting you know how it goes once I get the new toy (Hopefully by Friday). I've done a lot of back and forths and a lot of reading. I'm sure I'll have plenty to say once I get it up and going!

 

[onionperson654]

Update: Steve Jobs says its Apple's job to stymie hackers to try to break the iphone.

http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;1637167380;fp;4;fpid;18

While it doesn't differentiate between hacking the phone to use it without the phone feature and hacking it to use it as a phone, the bottom line is that with the touch you'll be working with Apple for support of your product and with the iphone you'll be working against them (and perhaps not recieving warranty coverage without an AT&T plan).

The hack to activate the non-phone features of the iphone was done so much quicker than opening up the phone features (days compared to months) that it would appear much harder for Apple to control that aspect, and they may not devote many if any resources to defeating that hack. For the phone features, though, they certainly will, and any new updates could take months to activate. At the same time, they could disable the itunes store and perhaps other features (cover synching) without upgrading your version of itunes so as to counter iphone owners who just don't update their software.

Fighting hacking certainly makes some sense for Apple (and may be part of their agreement with AT&T), but what would appear mean-spirited is if they also attempted to fight ipod touch hacking. It would likely be difficult (if the touch is as easy to jailbreak as the iphone) and would only hobble the device, far different from trying to keep people buying iphones without the plan.


Bottom line for those looking to purchase a hacktivated iphone, you'll be playing a game with Apple for the life of the device, whereas you can get all of the most important features (and likely all of the relevant software) on the touch already. The VAST majority of my ipod touch use will be to 1.) watch vidoes, 2.) listen to music and 3.) surf the net, all of which (if they fix the stupid screen issue) the ipod touch should do nearly equally well in time. Plus, saving $100 I can just put towards getting a new generation a couple of years down the road.

 

[aethelbert]

Update: Steve Jobs says its Apple's job to stymie hackers to try to break the iphone.

http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;1637167380;fp;4;fpid;18

While it doesn't differentiate between hacking the phone to use it without the phone feature and hacking it to use it as a phone, the bottom line is that with the touch you'll be working with Apple for support of your product and with the iphone you'll be working against them (and perhaps not recieving warranty coverage without an AT&T plan).

The hack to activate the non-phone features of the iphone was done so much quicker than opening up the phone features (days compared to months) that it would appear much harder for Apple to control that aspect, and they may not devote many if any resources to defeating that hack. For the phone features, though, they certainly will, and any new updates could take months to activate. At the same time, they could disable the itunes store and perhaps other features (cover synching) without upgrading your version of itunes so as to counter iphone owners who just don't update their software.

Fighting hacking certainly makes some sense for Apple (and may be part of their agreement with AT&T), but what would appear mean-spirited is if they also attempted to fight ipod touch hacking. It would likely be difficult (if the touch is as easy to jailbreak as the iphone) and would only hobble the device, far different from trying to keep people buying iphones without the plan.


Bottom line for those looking to purchase a hacktivated iphone, you'll be playing a game with Apple for the life of the device, whereas you can get all of the most important features (and likely all of the relevant software) on the touch already. The VAST majority of my ipod touch use will be to 1.) watch vidoes, 2.) listen to music and 3.) surf the net, all of which (if they fix the stupid screen issue) the ipod touch should do nearly equally well in time. Plus, saving $100 I can just put towards getting a new generation a couple of years down the road.

Do you actually think that Steve would walk out in public and just blow off AT&T? No. But we all know that Apple is just using AT&T as a mere puppet.

Apple has also said that they don't care what people do to their iPhones and that the company is not going to try to stop them. But if some software is incompatible with an update, it's not Apple's job to fix the third-party software.

 

[onionperson654]

But we all know that Apple is just using AT&T as a mere puppet.

I think its worth mentioning that while AT&T gave up a lot for the iphone, it's nothing compared to some of the European carriers. O2 is said to have agread to share 40% of iphone revenues, not profits, but revenues, and many analysts state that it is a money loosing revenue. Apparently, the European carriers (similar deals expected on the continent) fought each other to the benifit of Apple.

http://www.trustedreviews.com/mobil...17/O2-Gives-40-Revenue-To-Apple-For-iPhone/p1

If AT&T is a puppet (probably) than 02 is more like living in the Matrix/a cylon/using Microsoft products

 

[ImNoSuperMan]

I did it.

Pulled the trigger on a 8gb iPhone for $349.

Last night I started browsing ebay for a few $100 Apple Gift Cards from all the iPhone rebates. I got three of them for $260 so I saved $40 doing it this way. Still with South Dakota's 6% sales tax I'm getting it shipped to my door for $330 total. I would have payed $320 for an 8gb Touch if one would have shown its face in this town, but I had the itch and now I'm giddy for the box coming to my door.

There are plenty of eBay gift cards still going around. Save a few bucks. All three of my sellers emailed the codes within 12 hours and you could potentially get an even better deal on them than I did. Lets hope this is the right pick!

Thats not s bad idea. I`d also love to try it but how do I know that the seller has not given the code to somebody else too? Did you just checked the ebay feedbacks to make sure you wouldnt be cheated?

 

[Scribble1412]

Thats not s bad idea. I`d also love to try it but how do I know that the seller has not given the code to somebody else too? Did you just checked the ebay feedbacks to make sure you wouldnt be cheated?

I wasnt too concerned, but paying with Paypal has saved me twice. As soon as you get the code you can stick it in the apple website to check and make sure its valid. If mine would have been bad I would have filed a claim with Paypal near instantly. Maybe I have a little too much trust with some sellers but I had three success stories with the Apple Gift Cards, so I dont think there is too much fraud running around regarding these.

 

[TonyHoyle]

I think its worth mentioning that while AT&T gave up a lot for the iphone, it's nothing compared to some of the European carriers. O2 is said to have agread to share 40% of iphone revenues, not profits, but revenues, and many analysts state that it is a money loosing revenue. Apparently, the European carriers (similar deals expected on the continent) fought each other to the benifit of Apple.

That's crazy - it means that for every iphone sold apple gets a total £593 and O2 is only getting £27/month - and the cloud subscription is £7/month of that.. no wonder the price plans are so poor.

Also says what the sim free cost is likely to be once they start hitting the market... apple won't want to lose their revenues.

 

[shoelessone]

Let's try to keep the "Of course Apple will try to stop hackers, they are bound to AT&T and are sharing phone costs!" etc out of this thread. There are plenty of similar threads already in the iPhone forums. Even before this "breakthrough", those of us with any sort of experience hacking things (PSP, DS, XBox, Wiis, etc) that involve a company loosing money, know that it is and always will be an ongoing struggle between the hacker and the company who is loosing money.

So, I (and I hope everybody else here) has known that updates/etc would/will be an issue. Knowing that they will be an issue is absolutly nothing new, the question of "how much of an issue" still remains unanswered.

My advice to anybody who is considering purchasing an iPhone to use as an iPod, is, as I've already mentioned, wait until the next iPhone firmware release is out, watch to see how long a "fix" or updated activation hack takes to be released, and then make your purchasing decision based on that.

 

[Kenal0]

What apps are you looking for besides the calendar.
You can set up widgets with appleopolis.com or gridgets.com.
There are IM clients such as beejive.com and FlickIM that work fine-all web based so they work with both the touch and iphone.
If you do not need the phone then why buy an iphone.

 

[Kenal0]

I've considered this. As of now Apple is not forcing anyone to update, or torturing those who haven't. I'd say anytime an update comes out, someone will have it figured out within a week how to re-activate the phone.
In the meantime you can always stick an update behind until its easy enough to take it on yourself. Chances are a pattern will grow and more people will get into finding ways around the activation and with multiple brainpowers working towards that goal it should be fairly quick and painless. There is very VERY little chance that hackers will let these iPhones sit useless without a phone contract. They're quite the tool.


I'm not much of a Mac guy, so I must apologize for the Windows scenerio I'm about to compare to. When Windows XP first came out it sure seemed like they were taking some drastic measures to prevent pirating. The 30 day activation bomb, and taking note of hardware profiles. After while the pirating became popular, and then CD keys were blocked from Windows Updates. Now its all laughed at, and I chuckle everytime my ol tower pc passes ANOTHER Windows Validation.

'Soon enough third party's will come in and sure change up the scene. They always tend to. And like I said before... I doubt the iPhone could ever be left alone.

Yes but the difference is that Windows updates are all to fix holes they should have in the first place and Mac actually updates stuff people actually can use.
The new firmware update for the phone allows you to customize the home button. This was one of the first things I wanted.

 

[owen-b]

This is an interesting thread, but I don't think it's ever going to have a resolution - there's good arguments both ways! Still, it's good for getting thoughts together.

I'm in the UK. I was originally interested in the iPhone for all the same reasons everyone else was - gorgeous design, wonderful interface, Apple web apps, use of those apps at any time because it's a phone and hence connected to some kind of data network (whether it's slow GPRS or slightly faster EDGE), phone capabilities, iPod capabilities, large screen, etc etc.

I went off it because I knew it would cost a fortune in data rates when it came out over here (which it's been revealed it will). Also, deficiencies such as no MMS, and if it breaks (or battery runs out) that's a lot of devices to all go at once.

So when the iPod touch was announced, I was beside myself with glee. But then the problems - can't add events to the calendar but CAN add contacts - but NO notes? The screen problems, obviously. Has web but no mail, and is only WiFi, which for me means I can use it at home and that's about it because as a freelance cameraman I don't really go near WiFi hotspots. Certainly won't allow me to browse on the bus or train to work. But it's 16GB of pure music and video (not that I watch much video).

I only have 24GB of music on my computer and don't see it rising that much over time, maybe 2 or 3 GB a year, if that. I know for a fact there's loads on my machine I've rarely if ever heard in the last two or three years! So making playlists for an 8 or 16GB device are no problem whatsoever to me.

So, the constant constant constant debate for me is:

iPod touch (and risk a dodgy screen argument with Apple) and have only wireless access which is nice but fairly pointless at home, and get a Blackberry Pearl tariff (which is the same price as the lower UK iPhone tariff but MUCH more minutes and texts) to have that email and internet access on the go, on a much smaller screen and with a much less gorgeous and Mac-friendly interface?

or

iPhone imported from the States now for around £280 (because I WANT WANT WANT), hacktivated (not going to be a problem for me to do, I'm fairly geeky and have read all the tutorials), with my current O2 sim card in it, giving me all the net, mail, etc, plus a great phone interface and also my 8GB of iPod. Make sure I don't update until I know the update can be cracked, and if push eventually comes to shove, just go legit and put it on the official O2 tariff (can that be done??). But, it's kind of big for a phone, which let's face it has to go everywhere. That's my only major worry.

 

[i0Nic]

This is an interesting thread, but I don't think it's ever going to have a resolution - there's good arguments both ways! Still, it's good for getting thoughts together.

I'm in the UK. I was originally interested in the iPhone for all the same reasons everyone else was - gorgeous design, wonderful interface, Apple web apps, use of those apps at any time because it's a phone and hence connected to some kind of data network (whether it's slow GPRS or slightly faster EDGE), phone capabilities, iPod capabilities, large screen, etc etc.

I went off it because I knew it would cost a fortune in data rates when it came out over here (which it's been revealed it will). Also, deficiencies such as no MMS, and if it breaks (or battery runs out) that's a lot of devices to all go at once.

So when the iPod touch was announced, I was beside myself with glee. But then the problems - can't add events to the calendar but CAN add contacts - but NO notes? The screen problems, obviously. Has web but no mail, and is only WiFi, which for me means I can use it at home and that's about it because as a freelance cameraman I don't really go near WiFi hotspots. Certainly won't allow me to browse on the bus or train to work. But it's 16GB of pure music and video (not that I watch much video).

I only have 24GB of music on my computer and don't see it rising that much over time, maybe 2 or 3 GB a year, if that. I know for a fact there's loads on my machine I've rarely if ever heard in the last two or three years! So making playlists for an 8 or 16GB device are no problem whatsoever to me.

So, the constant constant constant debate for me is:

iPod touch (and risk a dodgy screen argument with Apple) and have only wireless access which is nice but fairly pointless at home, and get a Blackberry Pearl tariff (which is the same price as the lower UK iPhone tariff but MUCH more minutes and texts) to have that email and internet access on the go, on a much smaller screen and with a much less gorgeous and Mac-friendly interface?

or

iPhone imported from the States now for around £280 (because I WANT WANT WANT), hacktivated (not going to be a problem for me to do, I'm fairly geeky and have read all the tutorials), with my current O2 sim card in it, giving me all the net, mail, etc, plus a great phone interface and also my 8GB of iPod. Make sure I don't update until I know the update can be cracked, and if push eventually comes to shove, just go legit and put it on the official O2 tariff (can that be done??). But, it's kind of big for a phone, which let's face it has to go everywhere. That's my only major worry.

iPhone.

You want an internet capable music phone, so get the best on the market.

I've been debating these same issues, I've decided I'm getting the iPhone. I'm just going to wait till the next iPhone firmware update and see how long the hacking community takes to rehack the phone.

 

[owen-b]

I'm not so sure it is the best on the market though. I think it's missing some crucial things, plus the more I think about it the more I think it's too big for me to take everywhere all the time.

I'm looking very very seriously at the Blackberry Pearl and the 16GB iPod touch now. I can even get a theme that makes the Pearl look like an iPhone

And then next year when the new iPhone comes out... Second gen goodness!

 

[SpaceJello]

Really, you can't always wait to get something cause there will be 2nd gen, 4th gen in a few years, or around the corner etc.

With the iPhone, its not THAT big, and I can't stand blackberry UI, just the shear elegance of the iPhone is something to drool over.

With that said, there will always be something wrong with even the iPhone. I used to have a 30G iPod, then 80G, then I went to a 4G nano. Imagine that, I have at least 50G in music, and 20G or videos and counting. But when do you need to view all these at once or listen to them all at once? I rarely listen to at least 60% of the music I have.

I was debating the 16G ipod Touch or the iphone... but considering the power and potential, I think you know what i chose.

 

[owen-b]

True - but currently getting a US iPhone puts me out of warranty, which is a concern. I don't worry about the hacking being deactivated by Apple because I'd just not update the system. Also, no MMS with iPhone. And I hear the calls quality isn't fab.

 

[erasr]

I would just like to add to my previous arguement that the touch is a better buy , by saying that in the UK as you know by now the contract for the phone is absolute crap, a joke. so overall your paying between £900-£1100.
Touch wins hands down. Dont need a new phone, dont need crappy camera in it that iPhone has, Il take 16GB more space and a device that i wont need to carry everywhere and worry about wrecking it. For a phone, personally I prefer small, thin, good camera. iPhone isnt that.

 

[Scribble1412]

I got my iPhone today!

As soon as I got it I ran over to my buddies house to steal is Macbook Pro to run iNdependence and Activate my toy. I'm very happy that I spent the extra few dollars to get everything that came with this. As been stated before these things include

External Speaker
Camera
iPhone Dock
AC adapter
Default iPhone Apps
External Volume Controls
and of course others that I have I yet to find use for, but the ones listed so far I have definately already liked having and i've only had this for 12 hours.

As far as Activating it went... It was surprisingly smooth and simple with iNdepedence. Without my buddy's Mac I wouldn't have gotten anywhere! After activating it I found another guide that said I should update to 1.02 first, but I forgot to do that and things still seemed to go very well. EXCEPT YouTube only works right after you turn it on, and you use it once and it seems to quit working. So as we speak I'm restoring the iPhone to 1.02 and Activating it again to see if that fixes my issue!

Everyone around me asked about it today and got to see all the fun stuff. Of course they all had to ask what the heck I was doing with an At&t phone without phone service... which was an extremely huge question due to South Dakota having ZERO At&t coverage.

But so far I'm very pleased. Looking on eBay I'm debating as to if I should unlock it and sell it to make a few bucks and get another. I'm just so pleased to have this thing and I wish I would have done it sooner! Thanks everyone for their help in my purchase and I'll do my best to answer questions if they're having similar issues I've had deciding.


I'm off to keep playing with my new iPod!!!

 

[tm1000]

AC adapter isn't that big of a deal as you could always build a USB charger if you really wanted to for cheap. Battery life really isn't bad on my iTouch. Especially if you turn down the brightness.

WOW!!! thats pretty awesome!

 

[zub3qin]

I got my iPhone today!

As soon as I got it I ran over Todd my buddies house to steal is Macbook Pro to run iNdependence and Activate my toy. I'm very happy that I spent the extra few dollars to get everything that came with this. As been stated before these things include

External Speaker
Camera
iPhone Dock
AC adapter
Default iPhone Apps
External Volume Controls
and of course others that I have I yet to find use for, but the ones listed so far I have definately already liked having and i've only had this for 12 hours.

As far as Activating it went... It was surprisingly smooth and simple with iNdepedence. Without my buddy's Mac I wouldn't have gotten anywhere! After activating it I found another guide that said I should update to 1.02 first, but I forgot to do that and things still seemed to go very well. EXCEPT YouTube only works right after you turn it on, and you use it once and it seems to quit working. So as we speak I'm restoring the iPhone to 1.02 and Activating it again to see if that fixes my issue!

Everyone around me asked about it today and got to see all the fun stuff. Of course they all had to ask what the heck I was doing with an At&t phone without phone service... which was an extremely huge question due to South Dakota having ZERO At&t coverage.

But so far I'm very pleased. Looking on eBay I'm debating as to if I should unlock it and sell it to make a few bucks and get another. I'm just so pleased to have this thing and I wish I would have done it sooner! Thanks everyone for their help in my purchase and I'll do my best to answer questions if they're having similar issues I've had deciding.


I'm off to keep playing with my new iPod!!!

Did you get youtube to work? How worried are you about apple locking your phone with the next firmware?

 

[cazlar]

Just to add my experience, I was originally looking at a touch, but decided to go with the 8GB iPhone instead. I've only had it a few days, but it's been great so far. Used iNdependence to activate, ran an unlock app, and threw in my t-mobile PAYG SIM. All works with no problem (yet!).

2 features I love that I would have missed out on if I had gone with the touch are the external speaker - as well as for sharing stuff, you can easily prop the iPhone up against something and play a video while you do something, without being tied to it by headphones. For example I was cooking yesterday, and had to be at the stove, but obviously didn't want the iPhone near there. So just put it on a nearby counter and hit play.

And second, when you are using the white headphones it comes with, the pause/fast forward bump is brilliant. If you need to shut off the audio quick, no need to fumble in pockets to mute it, just a single squeeze. Plus I'm using the dock more than I thought I would.

 

[rcyphermd]

I apologize for the newbie question: can you just use the iphone with wifi, out of the box, with no hacks? In other words, can I use the iphone as an ipod and use wifi for the web and not do any hacks, etc.?? I really am no techno enough to do hacks. But I have no need for the phone. ATT has terrible service here. Thanks in advance for you advice!

 

[clevin]

I apologize for the newbie question: can you just use the iphone with wifi, out of the box, with no hacks? In other words, can I use the iphone as an ipod and use wifi for the web and not do any hacks, etc.?? I really am no techno enough to do hacks. But I have no need for the phone. ATT has terrible service here. Thanks in advance for you advice!

no, you can NOT

 

[rcyphermd]

what would be the simplist way for a non-techno person to hack it to work? Or should I just give up and buy the itouch?

 

[onionperson654]

While this thread has been resurrected, I've just got to say:

Sorry all of you who choose to get the iphone. Hope that the hackers stay ahead of apple (also for touch apps), and that you didn't want to use the phone feature.