The display of my MBookPro Penryn is 262k colours! Display 9C83! HOPELESS! NEW IMAGE!

[bcaslis]

Yeah.. am I the only one that thinks Apple may have a big problem here? Under Tech Specs, it clearly says the following, and I am quoting:

"15.4-inch (diagonal) antiglare widescreen TFT LED backlit display with support for millions of colors; optional glossy widescreen display"

If the displays are indeed only 262,000 colors, Apple should NOT be claiming millions of colors on their website. I don't care if techies "know" laptops don't have millions of color displays - a lot of people DON'T "know" that, and to say the display is something its not is deceptive to say the least.

If it was something that was a professional issue for me, you can bet I'd be calling Apple and complaining about it at the very least. You should be able to get them to take your computer back and give you a refund at least - so you can perhaps shop around and see if you can find a laptop with a panel that meets your needs.

If you look at the link I posted above:

http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2007/05/apple_lcd_lawsu.html

you'll see that it's about this issue. Search as much as you want but you won't find a laptop with an 8 bit display. The LCD manufacturers just don't make them. IBM used to have one in it's Thinkpad but they discontinued that display.

 

[Stardust79]

Why, does your lawyer make laptops with 6 bit displays suddenly become 8 bit?

I let someone else answer your question...

Yeah.. am I the only one that thinks Apple may have a big problem here? Under Tech Specs, it clearly says the following, and I am quoting:

"15.4-inch (diagonal) antiglare widescreen TFT LED backlit display with support for millions of colors; optional glossy widescreen display"

If the displays are indeed only 262,000 colors, Apple should NOT be claiming millions of colors on their website. I don't care if techies "know" laptops don't have millions of color displays - a lot of people DON'T "know" that, and to say the display is something its not is deceptive to say the least.

If it was something that was a professional issue for me, you can bet I'd be calling Apple and complaining about it at the very least. You should be able to get them to take your computer back and give you a refund at least - so you can perhaps shop around and see if you can find a laptop with a panel that meets your needs.

Now my macbookpro is at Apple Service... They will call me back in 2 days...
I don't have to know if my lcd is 6 or 8 bit and that doesn't matter... I want a display that can produce something different from a stair... My HP doesn't show the problem so if it's a 6 bit lcd too maybe my macbook pro dithering algorythm has a problem...

I'm going crazy!

Marco

 

[PDE]

I hate to tell you this, but you're not going to get what you want with the MBP. None of the displays can do what you want them to do - I know exactly what you're talking about and totally agree with you in principle, but it's just not going to happen right now. Apple can't do anything about it.

As for why your old HP laptop is better, I can't answer except to say that it's much much dimmer and perhaps just doesn't show the flaws the same way as the latest, bright ones. These are not Apple's displays - they're LG, Samsung, AUO, Chimei etc - the main players in the LCD area. Apple is using what these companies are producing. I don't think you'll find a laptop from any company that will do what you want it to do...sorry. There might be some laptop that has better dithering algorithms, but you'd have to really do a lot of research to find out. If you can find a thinkpad with one of the now discontinued (the supplier couldn't keep up and yields were not high enough) flexview 8-bit IPS displays, I think you'd be happy, but they're also not at all as bright.

Hope you find you're looking for, but the MBP display is what it is and it's unlikely that Apple can help you with it.

 

[mox123]

how do you get 282k colors from "6-bit" LCD? I guess same question for millions of colors from an "8-bit" LCD?

a bit is a factor of 2, so that 6-bit is 2^6?

Sorry if this sounds like a stupid question....i'm a novice at these technical stuff

 

[bcaslis]

how do you get 282k colors from "6-bit" LCD? I guess same question for millions of colors from an "8-bit" LCD?

a bit is a factor of 2, so that 6-bit is 2^6?

Sorry if this sounds like a stupid question....i'm a novice at these technical stuff

Each color channel can display 2^6 bits (instead of 2^8). And there are three channels (red, green, blue). So that's 64 x 64 x 64 = 262, 144 colors. If it was 8 bits it would be 256 x 256 x256 = 16,777, 216 colors.

 

[Jiddick ExRex]

Maybe it's my fault... but I don't agree with you and I don't think so... I need a new laptop for photo retouching... Apple sells the MacBookPro as the best choice... I read that the monitor support milions of colors... .... As I wrote... My 6/7years old Compaq looks smoother... I've never thought about 262k colors, searching the net... I simply choosed what is rappresented as the best product for my needs...

Ciao!

Marco

I don't even know if I agree with me or not.
I merely just stated the facts:
1. Apple uses horrible displays in their laptop lines.
2. As a consumer, you have somewhat of a responsibility to research which product suits you best and which ones have problems (we are differentiating between a perfect world and what experience eventually will teach you here).
3. Every display vendor/reseller lies about the specs of their displays.

This is pretty much the rap. Where you want to place the blame is up to you but Apple won't and can't really do anything about it now (other than start living up to their responsibility as a Pro laptop supplier, which is pretty much a moot point).

 

[bcaslis]

I don't even know if I agree with me or not.
I merely just stated the facts:
1. Apple uses horrible displays in their laptop lines.
2. As a consumer, you have somewhat of a responsibility to research which product suits you best and which ones have problems (we are differentiating between a perfect world and what experience eventually will teach you here).
3. Every display vendor/reseller lies about the specs of their displays.

This is pretty much the rap. Where you want to place the blame is up to you but Apple won't and can't really do anything about it now (other than start living up to their responsibility as a Pro laptop supplier, which is pretty much a moot point).

I agree with this as well as PDE's comment. Complain to Apple all you want but it isn't going to change the physics of today's laptop screens.

I will also say I've viewed LOTS of photos from high-end DSLRs on Apple laptops. In general I don't see problems. It is possible to see some stepping in subtle gradients or possibly some stepping in a high-contrast change. But that's not doing to stop you from doing editing like adjusting contrast, colors, etc.. It's also fair to say that resolution is a factor. The same photo on the hi-res 17" will look better than on the 15". The denser pixel pattern allows gradient to "appear" smoother. If getting smooth gradients is mandatory, then getting the most pixels on the screen is a step in the right direction.

As for a friend's low-end HP showing it better, well yeah right. I think you need to buy an HP then.

 

[Cave Man]

Yes... Ok... but the problem is that I bought the MBpro to use it on the field...
2200 Euros for a laptop proposed as the top choice for photoediting... and outperformed by a terrible blueish lcd made in 2002... No Comment... I'm wondering to consult my lawyer...

It's pretty common knowledge that there are no 8-bit panels in laptops, Macs or others. All ship with 6-bit panels. You did do your research before settling on a laptop, no? I mean, what photographer does critical photo work on a laptop anyway?

 

[Cave Man]

I let someone else answer your question...

with support for millions of colors

There's the operative word.

Now my macbookpro is at Apple Service... They will call me back in 2 days...I don't have to know if my lcd is 6 or 8 bit and that doesn't matter...

If you connect your Mac to an 8-bit external display, it will give you millions of colors. I don't doubt that some can regard this as misleading. Let's hope Apple Does the Right Thing.

 

[madmaxmedia]

I don't think Apple uses any worse LCD's in their laptops than any other maker.

The OP may have problems that have absolutely nothing to do with the color bit-depth of the display. In fact, I would think it probably is something other than bit-depth, if he is saying another laptop is giving him better results.

There might be some sort of calibration issue, or he might possibly have a defective laptop. Maybe his screen and calibration are fine, but can be adjusted for better results.

Does this happen with all images, or a particular color, etc.? Maybe you can post a link to an image that you clearly see problems with on your MBP screen?

 

[shoulin333]

Yeah.. am I the only one that thinks Apple may have a big problem here? Under Tech Specs, it clearly says the following, and I am quoting:

"15.4-inch (diagonal) antiglare widescreen TFT LED backlit display with support for millions of colors; optional glossy widescreen display"

Well apple says it will support millions of colors.. meaning programs that require that will run, maybe?

Doesnt say it will actually DISPLAY all the colors.. i know this sounds like crap, but probably something the lawyers will argue.

 

[madmaxmedia]

There's the operative word.

If you connect your Mac to an 8-bit external display, it will give you millions of colors. I don't doubt that some can regard this as misleading. Let's hope Apple Does the Right Thing.

What would the 'Right Thing' be? To custom-fabricate a MBP for him with a S-IPS screen? Anybody who actually cares or needs a true 8-bit color display knows that all smaller LCD's use TN and have 6-bit color, and use dithering to display 'millions of colors'.

This is very similar to old CRT specs (it's labelled as a 15 inch monitor, too bad only 14 inches are viewable), or hard drive space (when is a gigabyte not a gigabyte?)

EDIT- I see you mean 'Right Thing' in terms of their general advertising. On that I do agree with you- they could at least put in a disclaimer or something to that effect. They have to strike a fine line between informing the consumer, and not accidentally giving the impression that they have worse hardware than any other notebook maker (which they don't.)

 

[mox123]

Each color channel can display 2^6 bits (instead of 2^8). And there are three channels (red, green, blue). So that's 64 x 64 x 64 = 262, 144 colors. If it was 8 bits it would be 256 x 256 x256 = 16,777, 216 colors.

Great!! NOW it makes sense....THANK YOU!

 

[madmaxmedia]

Well apple says it will support millions of colors.. meaning programs that require that will run, maybe?

Doesnt say it will actually DISPLAY all the colors.. i know this sounds like crap, but probably something the lawyers will argue.

I don't think that argument holds any water. It would be fine if you were talking about the GPU, as it can obviously display more colors.

They (or anyone else) can claim it does display milliions of colors anyways, through dithering.

 

[ddarko]

Well apple says it will support millions of colors.. meaning programs that require that will run, maybe?

Doesnt say it will actually DISPLAY all the colors.. i know this sounds like crap, but probably something the lawyers will argue.

Too clever by half because your proposed argument takes the "with support for millions of colors" phrase out of its context. Keep in mind that the full sentence is:

-----
"15.4-inch (diagonal) antiglare widescreen TFT LED backlit display with support for millions of colors; optional glossy widescreen display"
-----

The "with support for millions of colors" is a prepositional phrase that modifies the preceding noun, which clearly refers to the laptop's built-in screen, not a external monitor that could be hooked up to the laptop. So someone could make the argument you suggest but it's a weak one.

Incidentally, I am a lawyer and although this isn't my area of practice, IMHO, I think people are right to feel a bit cheated and misled. To my ear, to advertise that a 6-bit panel supports/displays millions of colors, without disclosing that it does so using software manipulation, is akin to advertising a 100 GB hard drive's capacity as 200 GB because you can use compression software to store 200 GB on it. I doubt many people would accept that advertising as truthful.

The same goes for Apple or any other laptop manufacturer. If they are going to insist on advertising that their notebook panels display millions of colors, they should include an asterisk saying those millions of colors are achieved through dithering.

 

[Stardust79]

Too clever by half because your proposed argument takes the "with support for millions of colors" phrase out of its context. Keep in mind that the full sentence is:

-----
"15.4-inch (diagonal) antiglare widescreen TFT LED backlit display with support for millions of colors; optional glossy widescreen display"
-----

The "with support for millions of colors" is a prepositional phrase that modifies the preceding noun, which clearly refers to the laptop's built-in screen, not a external monitor that could be hooked up to the laptop. So someone could make the argument you suggest but it's a weak one.

Incidentally, I am a lawyer and although this isn't my area of practice, IMHO, I think people are right to feel a bit cheated and misled. To my ear, to advertise that a 6-bit panel supports/displays millions of colors, without disclosing that it does so using software manipulation, is akin to advertising a 100 GB hard drive's capacity as 200 GB because you can use compression software to store 200 GB on it. I doubt many people would accept that advertising as truthful.

The same goes for Apple or any other laptop manufacturer. If they are going to insist on advertising that their notebook panels display millions of colors, they should include an asterisk saying those millions of colors are achieved through dithering.

That's what I think about all this story....
...as I told you... I agree with you when you say that Apple won't move, that heavy photoediting is not for laptop, that the pannels are 6 bit and use dithering... ecc... but what Apple advertise is not clear... and I want to know what they are going to answer me... The Service Wrote : "Customer want to know if macbookpro pannels are all 6bit and want to know if Apple specs are uncomplete or wrong" they will answer me tomorrow... It remains the fact that others laptops' display the photo correctly not as fine as my Eizo but clearly better for me and for other people that saw the difference, so is it true that they are all 6bit? As I said maybe there's a problem with my screen...

THANK YOU VERY MUCH... ALL OF YOU FOR EVERYTHING!

Ciao

Marco

 

[Stardust79]

Yesterday afternoon Apple Service called me back... I have to bring my MBpro back home... they have certified the problem and the difference between Apple's statements and the 262k colors of my display... they found the same problem with other 2 macs (I posted the problem on Italy's most important Mac-forum with a crop of the image and it seems that the problem doesn't affect all MBpros)... It seems that Apple has a not official note about that thing... bah? So... in the end... Apple is going to call me back next week in order to reach an agreement... I am very curious...

Ciao!

Marco

 

[Jiddick ExRex]

Yesterday afternoon Apple Service called me back... I have to bring my MBpro back home... they have certified the problem and the difference between Apple's statements and the 262k colors of my display... they found the same problem with other 2 macs (I posted the problem on Italy's most important Mac-forum with a crop of the image and it seems that the problem doesn't affect all MBpros)... It seems that Apple has a not official note about that thing... bah? So... in the end... Apple is going to call me back next week in order to reach an agreement... I am very curious...

Ciao!

Marco

It's very good to hear that they acknowledged that your MBP has a problem.
It would really help next time with some pictures of the problem so the thread won't go down a tangent like this one. You clearly had a problem other than the 6-bit dithering everyone and their uncle has been ranting on about, so it's good to know that something was actually wrong.

Best of luck!

 

[bcaslis]

How about a link to the picture you posted? It's really impossible to know what you are talking about if it's not the 6 bit color issue without a picture to see.

 

[Stardust79]

Image....

How about a link to the picture you posted? It's really impossible to know what you are talking about if it's not the 6 bit color issue without a picture to see.

Sorry... This is the crop of the image... is a 100%crop... I didn't resize the image ... it's the original size... The focus point is out of the scene... I know that is a jpg but the .nef (nikon's raw) and the tiff are equal, same problem... in my Mbpro the background was like a "stair" with some greens "burned", something terrible... no smooth passages, "lines"... Now at my eizo it looks fine (even is is a jpg)...
I used PS with smart sharpen and unsharp mask to highlight the problem...

Tell me what you see...

Marco

 

[Stardust79]

It's very good to hear that they acknowledged that your MBP has a problem.
It would really help next time with some pictures of the problem so the thread won't go down a tangent like this one. You clearly had a problem other than the 6-bit dithering everyone and their uncle has been ranting on about, so it's good to know that something was actually wrong.

Best of luck!

It was my fault... now you can see one of the images affected by the problem... the service told me that they found the same problem with an other MBook and an Imac... the important thing is that they certified the problem... and that Apple is (already) aware of this...

Marco

 

[Jiddick ExRex]

Sorry... This is the crop of the image... is a 100%crop... I didn't resize the image ... it's the original size... The focus point is out of the scene... I know that is a jpg but the .nef (nikon's raw) and the tiff are equal, same problem... in my Mbpro the background was like a "stair" with some greens "burned", something terrible... no smooth passages, "lines"... Now at my eizo it looks fine (even is is a jpg)...
I used PS with smart sharpen and unsharp mask to highlight the problem...

Tell me what you see...
Marco

Just to be clear: is this a picture taken from your camera of your screen showing the image or a screenshot? A screenshot won't show anything.
It's far too small for me to see any gradient problems here.

It was my fault... now you can see one of the images affected by the problem... the service told me that they found the same problem with an other MBook and an Imac... the important thing is that they certified the problem... and that Apple is (already) aware of this...

Marco

What are you talking about man? If Apple acknowledged your problem, it's hardly your fault...

 

[Stardust79]

Just to be clear: is this a picture taken from your camera of your screen showing the image or a screenshot? A screenshot won't show anything.
It's far too small for me to see any gradient problems here.




What are you talking about man? If Apple acknowledged your problem, it's hardly your fault...

As I said... It is the crop of a macro shot taken with my D300 is not a picture of my screen... it is "small" but that's not a problem... is not the original image resized, it is the crop of the central part of the image at its 100% original size, the part most affected by the problem... the same crop in my mbpro looks terrible!

My fault was not to post that image before...

CIAO!

 

[MacNoobie]

I've read all the posts in this forum and my question is why doesn't any of the laptops on the market offer an 8-bit LCD? I know people will say cost or power consumption or the technologies just not there but what the f*ck. I'd expect a 6 bit LCD on some of the inexpensive laptops but Christ were talking about a $2,500+ laptop in the case of the Apple so why the f*ck as LCD manufacturers wouldn't you just stick to 8-bit.

The difference between 6 bit and 8 bit couldn't be THAT much I mean if thats the case where a 20" LCD is offered at $150-$200 then wtf are they using 6 bits then?

Most of the (higher end) Eizo's are what 10 bit now..

 

[rjp]

calibration changes gradient pattern

For what it's worth, I have noticed that calibration of the MBP display changes the gradient pattern. When I run the LCD test app I can see lines or curves where there is a distinct break in the otherwise smooth gradient, and I can cause this break to move or even dissapear with calibration. Problem is, to make the lines go away AND achieve proper color accuracy seems impossible. So I went for color.