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The Evidence for the Mac Tablet

Apple PDA? Yes!!!!

Prior to switching to Mac I had a lot of fun working with the Psion Handheld PC for many years. This is the best done Handheld I've ever seen. Unfortunatly the great Psion 5mx will be out of the market soon. It leaves behind a big gap and some companies have already smelled their chance and brought the keyboard back to the PDA (Sharp, Sony...).
None of this machines has the enormous usability of the EPOC powered Psion. There is a great chance for Apple to come up with a kind of aggregation of the hardware power and smallness of the iPod and a EPOC-like OS and software bundle, doing almost anything you has expected up to now from a laptop.
I never had a laptop and did all my work on the go with my (now a little outdated) Psion. And I know a lot of guys looking out for a comparable modern gadget too. BUT nobody of us would buy a tablet. (Some played around with a Palm - me too - and are going to throw it away.) So - a Apple PDA with a Keyboard would be a killer!
 
Originally posted by ogun7
ME TOO!!! Alias Wavefront's Sketchbook would be the killer app for a proposed Apple Tablet (iPad? PowerPad anyone?)
AliasWavefront's Sketchbook page

I'd pay $1500 - $2000 for this and I'm pretty sure most professional Mac-using artists would also.
Click to expand...

all 8 of them? Well, that is not true, of course, but all I'm trying to
say is that that isn't a big enough group of consumers for apple
to profit from. Especially if it is overpriced.
 
An Apple PDA might be nice, but it just isn't a good idea.
The PDA market is saturated and sales are shrinking.

That said, the Tablet market doesn't look so good either.
Even though a few recent posts have made a good case for a professional design tablet from Apple, the device's market isn't wide enough for a practical release.

The truth most likely lies somewhere between the PDA and the Tablet.
Think something along the lines of the Newton MessagePad 2100. A functional size capable of holding a small speaker, a decent size screen, connection ports, and one big hard drive.
 
It is time for the Apple Tablet computers.

I fully expect Apple to release a Tablet computer. Those who can't imagine where/why on earth you'd need a Tablet when your trusty iBook or PowerBook is available should try standing up and walking around while trying to manipulate their portable. Then try and show someone something on the screen.

To those who can type faster than they can write, well, congratulations. I prefer handwriting to typing PARTICULARLY when it comes to a bloody spreadsheet! I'd much rather touch the cell and WRITE INTO THE CELL the information that I want there rather than sending the cursor there and then typing the data.

Before you damn the idea of handwriting on an Apple Tablet, I urge that you check out how well it worked before.

Beg or borrow (don't steal) an Apple Newton Message Pad 2000 or 2100. Try out the handwriting recognition and then *I dare you* to say you are content with Graffiti. Before Steve killed Newton, I was taking real time meeting minutes with my Newton 2000, had crucial product specifications on it, and I was Joe-Effective. Now I've got a Palm m515 with Documents To Go and I WILL CHEERFULLY SKIP THE LITTLE B****** ACROSS A LAKE if/when(!) Apple releases their Tablet/Newton replacement.

It would be wonderfully comfortable to have the Apple Operating System with me where ever I am.

Also, I don't think that Apple will release one size of Tablet anymore than they have released one size of Powerbook.

Thanks for listening.

Aries 1B
 
tablet: think education

I think people are being a bit self-centered in their discussion: If I can't imagine buying a tablet, then it's a lousy product. If I can imagine using it, then its great.

I image education as the chief market. A tablet may be ideal for taking notes in lectures and classes. It's got to be small, to fit in available space in lecture halls, and it should support free-hand drawing as well as text. In addition, it could be used for annotating lecture notes and figures distributed by the teacher.

From a teachers point of view, it also may be ideal. I think a properly configured touch-screen device is ideal for presentations. I use a powerbook with a wacom tablet for powerpoint presentations. I like to "draw on" my slides to add focus, spontanaity and interaction. (Unfortunately, there is no "pen" function in v. 1.0 of keynote). A touch screen would be superior to a wacom tablet.

I can well imagine a tablet different from the PC variety. Specifically, I'd prefer one that could synch with 1 or 2 desktops or work on it's own. I don't think tablets are great as full-time computers for some types of work (digital photography, complex document preparation).

In short, think EDUCATION . Apple has to remain the innovation leader in the education market.
 
It needs to support xyz

People keep saying "it needs to support drawing" or "it should allow note taking" or "it could run OS X lite" - I think this suggests a restricted product.

A successful Apple Tablet just needs to run Mac OS X like every other Mac. That way the user gets to choose its use, and developers don't need to learn new APIs.

The target market could be easily differentiated by size:

Consumers/Education 8" screen
Business 14" screen
Design Pro 16" screen

It should be keyboardless - All Tablet All The Time - if you prefer a keyboard you need a Powerbook or iBook. Hybrid "Laplets" aren't innovative enough to be must have items, but we all know how badly a Newton2 is desired.

One more killer feature? Make them usable as a monitor with DVI and video/audio in so that users can check DV or add a temporary 2nd screen to their Mac.
 
I thought of getting a tablet. I like the idea of using Franklin Covey Planner with a digital ink, taking notes in meetings etc.

Why I won't get one is because I'd still need a more powerful computer for other functions so I'd have to sync data all time (especially for email and such).

It would be cool just for the Franklin Covey Planner but then you are talking $2000 for an electronic planner.

I'd like to be able to take notes in a meeting in handwritten and later transform into text and import into my computer. An other sized PDA might work.

Also I see digital paper applications usinga logitech pen. You carry a notepad around and digital pen and sync with your computer.

I don't see Apple doing at as it is a vertical market application for enterprises.
 
A Tablet Mac *is* a viable business device ...

Everytime I see this thread pop up, I see naysayers claim that it has no business use because, for example, people type faster than they write. While that may be true, extended writing of reports and emails are *not* the major activity business folk do. <b>Reading</b> reports and emails <b>is</b> the major activity and laptops are adequate but not optimal for this task. We need to be able to read these things, extract information out of them, and then re-use this information in another way (such as writing it in emails and reports). As we move around, from meeting to meeting, we also need to be able to collect information, store it, and use it later.

So, I want to be able to read emails, papers, reports, etc. and <b>highlight</b> them (just as with paper and a highlighter) and have the highlighted text automatically saved into, say, a Stickies file or multi-Clipboard, (which also automatically includes the source document path, name, and a timestamp). I'd also like the stylus for it to be something like an OTM VPen (http://www.otmtech.com/vpen.asp) that could double as a stylus and as a Bluetooth pen (for writing on paper and other surfaces) that would be recorded on this "tablet". [Note: I don't need to be able to draw on the tablet's screen or do extended writing ... I just need enough sensitivity for highlighting and basic navigation ... that should keep the cost of the screen down to a manageable level. For extended writing or drawing, I'd prefer to use a Bluetooth pen on paper so as to have an immediate hardcopy of it.]

I'd expect a base configuration to have a relatively full OS X foundation running on a moderate CPU (most folk don't edit videos and photos on the go so they shouldn't have to pay for it) and, say a 40Gb hard drive with a pressure-sensitive screen (maybe one hi-res for artists and a low/med-res for the rest of us). Now, add to the Bluetooth Airport Extreme, 10baseT (don't need 100baseT or gigabit), Firewire 400 and USB 2.0 (provide an optional "travel" keyboard) so that I can plug it in to my G4s at home and office (as well as the Windoze boxen I'm occasionally forced to use). Add a built-in microphone (maybe able to switch between omnidirectional and shotgun?) to collect voice annotations, record meetings, etc.(preferably in the highly compressed, yet high quality DSS format: ~10 hours in 64 Mb) Add an option for a (Bluetooth?) headphone to listen to these recordings (and any music, etc. you might have ... or even your Bluetooth cellphone!). Add a VGA port so that I can plug it into the many types of LCD projectors out there in the business world and give presentations (provide a Bluetooth mouse option). Build in the capability to auto-sync the tablet's files with digital hubs in your home and office.

Oh, I should add that I also teach and take classes ... the above system would really help me do my work there as well. Price it under $1500 (maybe an extra $3-500 for all the options) and stand back. Let Windows have the desktop and let Linux have the back office ... Apple has an opportunity to grab the space that PDAs have failed to conquer in helping us move between our multiple worlds with ease, function, and flair ...

The 12" Powerbook is a good step in this direction but look in on any generic meeting and you'll see most people using analog pens and pads of paper instead of their laptops. The laptop form factor has some benefits when working in one place for an extended period, but the most natural way of working on the go is closer to the tablet form factor. Give us a way to bridge analog and digital worlds, Apple, in the ways that only you can do!

<sigh>Now I have to go back to my worlds of paper, PDFs, highlighters, pens, etc. ... bummer ...
 
Arn may indeed want a Tablet...

"arn really wants a mac tablet i think and thats why MR has so much specualtion about it."

That may well be the case...

...or there may be something up at Cupertino.

For my money, the Tablet/PDA/v***1/v***2 bubbles have been some of the more interesting and entertaining flotsam floating on the sometimes turbulent Lake Rumors. New microprocessors would be nice, but a new working Tablet product line (small, medium & large) would be a leap into The Future.

The Keyboard is *so* 20th century....

Aries 1B
 
Instant Gratification

To me, the tablet is the ideal "portable" computer. It's all about instant gratification of the user interface and the ultimate goal is to rival the versitality and ease-of-use of pen and paper.

The reason I say this is because a device this small and portable must serve the user's whimsical, on-the-fly requests. And if the user has to wait for the device, or think about how to make it work, it will fall along the wayside and not be used (see PDA note below). If the user needs to quickly jot down a note, the device should be able to HELP the user accomplish this, within a handful of seconds, utilizing the most natural and user friendly interface metaphore -- pen & paper. If the user is taking meeting minutes or composing an email, obviously a keyboard of some sort is in order. It must satisfy the user's demands by assisting with things most commonly done AWAY from a computer without penalizing the user for using the device.

The reason PDAs are currently slumping is because they are trying to expand beyond their true usefulness. Something with that size of screen, memory and computing power is really only good for tracking contacts and appointments. And once the novelty has worn off, who's going to pay $300-$500 for an electronic day planner that's more cumbersome to use than a paper version?

To be successful, an Apple Tablet must be small enough to take with you where ever you go (how many of you actually take your laptops to meetings?) but powerful enough to satisfy the task at hand. They should be an extension of your workhorse computer and not be billed as a computer replacement. The device must have instant-on capabilities, a high resolution screen large enough to actually display some data and an EXTREMELY low-latency GUI. The key is recognizing that the utility of this thing is directly proportional to the speed of it's user interface -- the more responsive and "snappy" this thing is, the more often it will be used.

The other issue is price point. If someone spends $1000, they expect to get $1000 of value out of it -- not just a cool gadget.

This can be successful if done right -- just think of the iPod. Before it came out, who though an MP3 player would have staying power? But it was done right -- elegance, simplicity, cool gadget power and a good price point. It flourishes because it does a specific job and it does it well. (Side note -- now that the iPod is trying to branch off and hold contact information, etc, I think it's muddying the waters a bit and may do more harm than good.)

If Apple can make a tablet that exceeds everyone's expectations of what a tablet should be and can help a person (that's away from their computer) manage and complete their tasks, then I believe not only will they sell them by the truckload but they will also define a new computing paradigm.

Sorry for the long post -- I've been waiting for something like this for nearly 20 years!

Thanks,
Scott Bontrager
uMacsoiMac@mac.com
 
Very nice post. I couldn't agree more. An easy to use interface and high portability is the key. I believe apple can do this. Like I said earlier, for many people this would be more useful than a laptop. I hope it doesn't hurt notebook sales, but it is a possibility. It is perfect for people who need the power and upgradability/expandability of a Powermac, but also need portability, and don't wish to try to sync 2 macs together (like me for instance) It would be even cooler if it was still more useful to be almost a computer replacement, but a simple "portable tablet would be great. Take notes on it, listen to music whatever, then sync with either firewire, bluetooth or airport extreme. Sign me up if its under a grand.
 
Here's my take on an apple tablet:

Right now Apple is following the pattern of naming the Pro user computers Power..., as in PowerMac and PowerBook, and the consumer models as i..., iMac and iBook, and iPod. So to fill out the offerings I am referring to this sketch concept as the PowerPod. Everybody seems to have great hopes for the iPod to grow into a multifunction device, so I am looking towards that in spirit if not fact.

What I am thinking of is basically a Powerbook reduced to its smallest possible form factor, but trying to use the technologies that Apple is already using today as much as is possible. So, I am thinking it will run OSx just like a full fledged Macintosh, and be able to use the full range of technology used by the other Macintosh offerings. Here is the idea:

Ok, first we are going to loose the keyboard, the clamshell paradigm, and go back to something more similar to the MessagePad 2100 form factor. We are going to leverage the Inkwell technology to drop the keyboard on the go, and use a screen that takes pen input. This will be a little smaller than the tablets now being introduced in the Windows world, but more mobile. The critical dimension is about 5" by about 8", 3/4 inch thick at the most, better if as thin as an ipod. Small enough that you can hold it gripped between your thumb and fingers resting in your palm and address it with a pen in the other hand. The screen will be a wide screen format, software rotatable. I am not sure of the pixel density, but I am thinking 800x480 would be a minimum to be useful for web browsing and email on the go.

To get it this small I think Apple should leverage the iPod harddrive. 20g is available now - not long ago Powerbooks were coming with 15g hard drives so the size is workable. 40g iPods are on the horizon as the drives have been mentioned on the toshiba web site, so larger drives could be readily available. No built in optical drive of course, and the battery should also borrow from the iPods technology in the quest to make it smaller with a long runtime. The screen perhaps could be one of the new types which don't require backlighting in bright light for the sake of battery life. Seeing them on PDAs they never looked as good as a powerbook screen so I am a little doubtful about that.

Now a little Mac slate will be useless if we can't connect it in the usual way, so I propose it have the usual slew of Powerbook ports with some small modifications. First and formost - DVI. This thing should have 32mb of video memory, enough to drive the 23" Cinema Display. It should use the most energy efficient chip set from ATI or Nvidia with battery consumption taking precedence over Quake framerates. They should be able to have it go into a low energy mode while only driving the small on board display. The DVI port will allow it to drive projectors and with Apples DVI to ADC box, to connect to their handsome lcd monitors. Now you have a reasonable platform to work with in the office. Next, one USB port. Thats all you need on the run, and after you have it plugged into your Apple Monitor you will have the usual two on hand. One combo FireWire, and Power supply port. Thats right, just like the iPod it will rely on the Firewire port for its power supply connection, but unlike the iPod the PowerPod's firewire powersupply plug will feature a pass through socket to plug in an external device at the same time. We are leveraging a good technology to save space. Then a combo ethernet/modem port. Yes, you know you can plug an RJ11 plug into a n RJ45 socket - it just fits in the middle. Rather than waste space for two sockets that are rarely used at the same time while on the go, they are replaced by an auto sensing socket that handles both functions. Next is a sound out jack, and elsewhere on the unit a headphone jack. All these ports will line up, iBook style along the top back edge of the unit rather than the side. In the wireless world it should probably come equipped with bluetooth, and have the usual Airport option. Now it has all the connectivity of a powerbook, it is running a full version of OSx and it is connectable to a full size screen for legitimate work at a desktop. On the go it it will will have all the connectivity of a Powerbook and a fraction of the weight and size. The pen based interface with Inkwell will be more than sufficient for on the go web browsing and email, and the ability to drive a projector or large monitor for Keynote presentations is there as well. It is also bound to open up the market for small keyboards, as well as portable mice.

There are three modes of use then. One as a tablet or slate, or whatever you would like to call it. The second as a "desktop" connected portable. The third mode would be using a dock, or base station ala the Powerbook Duo. This would provide an elegant way to plug your PowerPod into your desktop workstation and avoid making all the individual cable connections. Rather than the vcr tape paradigm used for the Duo, I think this is another opportunity to leverage existing technology - the lcd iMac to be exact. Using the iMac as a mule for a docking station is a natural. The PowerPod unit can settle into a holder on the adjustable arm where all the ports on the back could plug in. The units small screen would be facing out and could still be used as a small monitor with all the great adjustability of the iMac. It should not weigh too much more than the iMacs large 17" display. The base unit would supply power, and could have built in DVI to ADC hardware allowing you to connect the Apple ADC displays directly to the base. The base would also have an optical drive, and an additional 3 1/2" hard drive, both items that could be optioned up in different configurations including a DVD burning superdrive. All the other usual ports could be present in the usual locations at the back of the hemisphere base. An alternative method of making the connection would be a broad docking connector across the bottom, similar to the Duos connector. The upside of this is you could offer direct access to the PowerPods motherboard for possible system upgrades within the base - a slot? The downside is creating new, more complicated technology.

Thats the concept. The segment of Powerbook users that have always sought out the smallest possible machine has always been a strong and faithful contingent. That combined with the almost obsessively faithful Newton users, and the Japanese users may spell a market large enough to make this a viable product. What do you think? How would you use such a device? What processor do you think it should carry? An energy thrifty and speedy G3, or a balls out Final Cut Pro bustin G4? How about Ram expandability - slots add size? How about the price point - what should the PowerPod alone come in at - less than a 12 Powerbook? What should a unit plus a base station be - about the same as a 17" Powerbook?

attached sketch: The foreground shows the unit laying flat with its integral stand folded. I am imagining it would have a screen cover of some sort - similar to the MessagePad 2100 that folded around and flat against the back of the unit so it could be out of the way completely.

The middle ground shows the unit standing up on the integral stand. I am imagining detent stops in the stands range which would give you several viewing angles. This would allow you to connect your desktop cables to the ports along the top back of the unit. Kind of crazy to work on such a small screen, but with a larger monitor attached it makes a good place to stow your mail window and ichats buddy window.

In the back you can see the iMac based docking station in the background, with the Powerpod docked into the adjustable holder. Is'nt it cute! A tinsy winsy iMac! This station would offer serious desktop connectivity. A viable workstation depending on the processor on board.
 

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Respect, lavardera, but...

...your concept is great but a shot right in the back of various Apple departements. Your fantasy machine is a monster collecting a lot of parts from other machines. But where is the wall breaking new usability? And what about the price? I guess there won't be a lot of peaople out there spending 1500 $ for a "powerbook without keyboard".
Look at the market, look at the mass of people fighting with terrible small palms (a lot of apple users do because of the only syncing that works till now). There is a big demand for a small thing, that really fills the gap between the desktops and the papers. Millions of people feel it but don't find something that fullfills their need. Cause no Sony, no Palm an no Sharp is smart enough to bring the best technologies together. Apple could do it. - A real digital assistant, small, powerfull and simple to use. Prized much lower than 700 $. Based on iPod, Newton or whatever. But really for to go - not for walking through the penthouse.
 
I understand where you are coming from Nosch, but I find it doubtful that Apple will introduce yet another operating system. Revive NewtonOS? Maybe, but looks doubtful. Expand the iPods small OS. Perhaps, but only as an adjunct to another function like MP3 player or video player. I can't see them getting into a PDA like device when the prices are plunging and the existing players are struggling. But a sub-laptop sized device running the current MacOS and all the software already available is a no-brainer.
 
Originally posted by lavardera
I understand where you are coming from Nosch, but I find it doubtful that Apple will introduce yet another operating system. Revive NewtonOS? Maybe, but looks doubtful. Expand the iPods small OS. Perhaps, but only as an adjunct to another function like MP3 player or video player. I can't see them getting into a PDA like device when the prices are plunging and the existing players are struggling. But a sub-laptop sized device running the current MacOS and all the software already available is a no-brainer.
Click to expand...

It's built isn't it really?

iBook - remove the keyboard, add a touchscreen THATS IT! No new OS, no new m/b and you have it done.

Okay, they can improve things by shrinking the screen, improving the battery etc but it's not a massive project.

As soon as you get into custom OSs you get 2 fatal problems: 1) cost, 2) developer support. With tools like Project Builder and REALbasic so easy to use, what Mac user would buy a tablet their own stuff won't run on?

I love my Ti800, but nice 8" Tablet would be much more useful in meetings and when traveling.
 
Originally posted by Blackcat
It's built isn't it really?

iBook - remove the keyboard, add a touchscreen THATS IT! No new OS, no new m/b and you have it done.
Click to expand...

That's it really. Split the ibook in half. Drop the cd drive half, split the drive space between the ipod drive and a more compact battery. The touch screen is not rocket science any more. Inkwell is already up and running as an interface for pen entry. The rest works like a waccom cintiq on screen.

I know its not as easy as chainsawing it in half, but you can see all the parts are there and the reduction in size is not a stretch. It makes sense to leverage existing engineering ala the PB12.
 
Infrared Virtual Keyboard

Hey folks, check this out! Go to:
http://w4.siemens.de/FuI/en/news/
and scroll down to "A pocket-sized keyboard." Apple could potentially use something like that in place of a keyboard.

For more info:
http://www.google.com/search?q=siemens+virtual+keyboard

As an alternative, PDA's often have covers, right? Why not have the cover fold-down and fold out, revealing a flat-button keyboard? I don't mean flat-keys like on the current Apple laptops, but just a sheet of metal with letters printed on it... touch-sensitive.

Either scenario gives you a PDA-sized device with a full-sized keyboard. Basically just an iBook without the optical drive, and with a smaller screen and one of the above keyboards.
 
about the microkeyboard thing...

why don't you have an Apple Tablet (iLeaf?) with an integral stand, and have virtual keyboard emitter built into the bezel. Have it adjustable, so you can "virtual-type" with the thing laying flat, and with the stand fully extended. Thus, you'd get rid of the bulk of the keyboard, but still have a viable keyboard option for those who want one without compromising screen real estate. I mean, most people don't type furiously with one hand while walking to and fro. THe keyboard would be fully usable when on a flat surface (though no touch-typing feedback.)

and... i agree with the "make it small" mentality, i mean... a PB w/o a keyboard... yeah, that has wow factor, but cradling a 15" screen that weighs 6 pounds in your arm, while walking, just isn't my thing. I'd like to see something about 8-10" (OLED?), touchscreen, 20GB HDD, Bluetooth, 802.11g, 802.16a-e (pick one). That'd be the tablet for me.


my .02
 
Originally posted by GrandShenlong
and... i agree with the "make it small" mentality, i mean... a PB w/o a keyboard... yeah, that has wow factor, but cradling a 15" screen that weighs 6 pounds in your arm, while walking, just isn't my thing. I'd like to see something about 8-10" (OLED?), touchscreen, 20GB HDD, Bluetooth, 802.11g, 802.16a-e (pick one). That'd be the tablet for me.
Click to expand...
Add in cellular phone (or whatever protocol) and you have my vote... as in my dollars.

BTW, has everyone seen this?
http://www.envestco2.com/macwhispers/archives/000041.php

Sounds like it could be our iPad!
 
Beyond tablets

While we're investigating the possible, how far do you think we are from using glasses instead of screens? The advantages are pretty clear... you can have an effective 80" screen with minimal weight and cost.

Here are some current glasses:
http://vidsyn.com/iglasses.htm

And here's some eyeball-tracking technology:
http://www.eyegaze.com/doc/cathuniv.htm

Have there been any rumors of Apple getting into this realm? Seems like a great place for them to be the vanguard... or else IBM will do it (they're already advertising it, though they haven't produced anything).
 
I would like a tablet which is the removable screen of a Powerbook. I would cozy up in my favorite chair to read, surf, look at pictures. Others might draw. So put the horsepower of the Powerbook in the screen and leave the keyboard section for the keyboard and other stuff that the engineers figure out does not need to to be included in the screen/tablet. The 12" Powerbook would be perfect for this.
 
Re: Why tablet?

Originally posted by macphoria
I agree with Steve's initial statement about whether tablet device would be successful. "Do you want to handwrite all your e-mail?" totally makes sense.

It is so much faster to type than to write, although being able to handwrite has some advantages, such as adding human touch, scribbling or drawing, being able to write in random locations for thought organization, etc. Still, I think efficiency is the most important issue when it comes to communication and typing is the best way to go. Even PDA devices that support handwriting recognition sell separate portable keyboards, and that's saying something about consumers' tendencies.

However, because tablet functionality is not entirely without merit, I think it would be interesting if Apple introduced a LAPTOP with screen that can be used as a tablet. Perhaps something similar to one of PC laptop that can twist its display around and be used as a tablet.

Or (it just occurred to me)

Maybe a tablet with touch screen keyboard as part of the display? But it would probably require large screen to accomodate the touch screen keyboard. I don't know. But whatever tablet device it might be, I strongly believe keyboard needs to be integrated.
Click to expand...

Think more.

Docking station with your cd-rw drive, keyboard, mouse, extra firewire and/or usb ports, and it charges the tablet.

That and a program with a keyboard display.

Think of how cool it would be to do a presentation with Keynote, where the pointer can be used on the tablet to be shown over the projector, as well as running the presentation itself.

In the business world, tablets could be king in 3-5 years. I don't think so in the personal space. And that is why Jobs is hesitant. He knows Apple can't hack it against the PC companies when dealing with corporate accounts.
 
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