The MacRumors Show: Luke Miani Talks the Future of iPad and More

[Richdmoore]

I absolutely loved my iPad since I got the original on launch day. Amazing product to carry around rather than a laptop. A couple years later, I was issued an iPad for work, now I carry a personal iPad and a work iPad everydaywhile working.

I have an M1 “supercomputer” 11” tablet now, it’s great hardware. It should be able to take on any task the MacBook Air can.

The problem is that that the software (games in particular) are mostly freemium garbage apps. iPadOS has Xbox/ps controller support, M1 chip but very few fps or other games of the type I can play on my Xbox. I started carrying around an older portable console (PS Vita) to be able to play some quality fps and other games types with. I shouldn’t have to do that, I am not lacking in hardware power, rather I am lacking in software.

I get Apple Arcade as part of Apple One, but the games are just older cell phone games, or types that generally don't appeal to me. I also get frustrated when I fine one, but it is iOS only, so I can't download the same game on macOS. At least it is fairly cheap when rolled into my subscriptio.

Cloud gaming isn't primetime yet, can’t use it on the airplane I am typing this from for example, or over hotel WiFi usually (too slow).

The sad thing is I am not sure how Apple can fix it, short of buying a gaming company like they did for Beats by Dr. Dre….

Professional Apps probably vary by the type of business, I haven't had any issues with aviation uses, except maybe the lack of “real” flight simulators with hardware controller/accessory support. I can imagine crazy things with an apple vision pro however…….

 

[tobybrut]

I absolutely loved my iPad since I got the original on launch day. Amazing product to carry around rather than a laptop. A couple years later, I was issued an iPad for work, now I carry a personal iPad and a work iPad everydaywhile working.

I have an M1 “supercomputer” 11” tablet now, it’s great hardware. It should be able to take on any task the MacBook Air can.

The problem is that that the software (games in particular) are mostly freemium garbage apps. iPadOS has Xbox/ps controller support, M1 chip but very few fps or other games of the type I can play on my Xbox. I started carrying around an older portable console (PS Vita) to be able to play some quality fps and other games types with. I shouldn’t have to do that, I am not lacking in hardware power, rather I am lacking in software.

I get Apple Arcade as part of Apple One, but the games are just older cell phone games, or types that generally don't appeal to me. I also get frustrated when I fine one, but it is iOS only, so I can't download the same game on macOS. At least it is fairly cheap when rolled into my subscriptio.

Cloud gaming isn't primetime yet, can’t use it on the airplane I am typing this from for example, or over hotel WiFi usually (too slow).

The sad thing is I am not sure how Apple can fix it, short of buying a gaming company like they did for Beats by Dr. Dre….

Professional Apps probably vary by the type of business, I haven't had any issues with aviation uses, except maybe the lack of “real” flight simulators with hardware controller/accessory support. I can imagine crazy things with an apple vision pro however…….

Sounds like you’re looking for a gaming machine larger than a phone but smaller than usual computers. I would bet waiting for an M3 iPad (Air or Pro) would work best for you since the new graphics cores on the A17 Pro would certainly be in those M3 iPads, which would support console quality games.

 

[CarAnalogy]

I often repost this message during iPad Pro discussions by "pundits" and forum members.

My company develops B2B iPad solutions. One of our clients is a medium-sized real estate firm. They deployed a custom iPad app to their staff. The staff considers the iPad the most powerful computer they’ve ever used because it significantly improves their professional workflow. In the field, with long battery life and integrated wireless connectivity, they can upload real estate property pictures, edit the inventory database, prepare and sign documents, conduct video tours and conferences using the front and rear cameras simultaneously (and watch ESPN while waiting for clients! Shhh!) We are implementing AR functionality so that they can do virtual staging based on the potential buyers' style or corporate branding theme. We can also use LiDAR for automatic floor plan updates and measurements.

The tablet form factor and iPadOS are not a limiting computing environment for them; quite the opposite. They can do more on the platform than the previous Windows setup with laptops. Similarly, we’ve developed iPad apps for medical offices and corporate-meeting production companies that see higher productivity and significantly reduced IT maintenance costs after deploying iPads for some of their staff.

Again, these firms don’t consider custom iPadOS apps as limiting or for "basic" functions. I think that many people on online forums may not need a tablet for their computing needs and don't seem to consider the wide range of uses for the iPad as a computing platform for professionals.

You’re describing what Microsoft always called “front-line workers,” people who are holding a computer while doing something else. Microsoft never succeeded at it but you are describing the ideal scenario for this.

With custom apps, there is a lot the iPad can do.

Your company exists to make the iPad usable. Without the custom software you’re making, it would not be nearly as useful to your clients.

This is what people complain about with iPad productivity. It’s not that it’s useless. It’s just that it’s useful for specific cases with custom software.

Apple promotes it as a laptop replacement and it is not. Apple should promote more of what you are doing because you are doing them a huge favor and presumably making good money at it. Seriously, props to you for finding a market to make money and help people.

I still don’t think it changes the fact that for most people they would be better served by a laptop if it’s something they have to support themselves and don’t have custom line of business software for.

 

[CarAnalogy]

Ok fine, maybe a bit harsh but I would invite everyone to go through his videos on iPad content and count the positives vs the negative ones.He’s clearly biased against the iPad.

that doesn’t invalidate his opinion on it but I do thing it would at least be nice to hear the other side as well People that actually use it professionally

here’s my personal hot take: we went through a Mac refresh cycle with M series chips and design changes. Watch it be extremely stale for the next 3-5 years. Same as the iPad. Is the Mac dying??

The difference is, the Mac is a general purpose computer. And it’s a very mature platform. iPad is ¼ the age of the Mac and still not established as an essential technology the way a “PC” is.

Nobody is complaining about iPad hardware, it’s the software. Still no clear advantage over a phone or laptop except for specific scenarios.

Nobody wants them to mess with the Mac too much. It already does everything, their changes to it arguably are risking making it worse. The iPad needs all the help it can get if they want it to be a useful category all its own.

 

[Mainsail]

I remember watching Jobs' early-2010 launch of the original iPad. He laid-out such a clear case for the device. It was Apple's answer to a netbook. Lighter. Thinner. Longer Battery life (essential in a mobil device). Simpler. Better than a laptop at: email (debatable), browsing, reading, photos, music.....basically light consumption oriented activities. And, it was competitively priced at the time $499. Jobs identified a swim lane for the device between a smartphone and a laptop. It was pretty compelling.

Then, in late 2010, Apple released the updated MBA. Jobs described it as the result of an iPad and MacBook "hooking-up". Instant on. Light and thin compared to other laptops. SSD. Great multi-touch trackpad. Good battery life. And, it was priced competitively. The smaller version was still 2x the cheapest iPad, but it was a pretty compelling case for people that wanted more mobile power and capability.

Fast forward to today. iPhones screens have become larger. MBAs have become lighter, faster, and battery life has improved tremendously. They are fanless. Added Touch ID. Meanwhile, when you add the MK to the pro models, the iPad almost weighs the same as an MBA. For the same storage, they cost more, especially if you add the MK. So, my point is the swim lane has become narrower for those that try to set-up their iPads as MacBook replacements. I am not saying there isn't a place for the top of the line iPad with accessories. For example, artist may benefit. But, seems to me the niche has become smaller. Certainly, an older iPad used simply as a tablet still has some great consumption advantages at an affordable price. I am not hating on the iPad.....just pointing out how the evolution of these devices has changed the use case.

 

[brofkand]

This is my weekly post telling y'all that you need to get Jonathan Horst from Mac Address as a guest for the MacRumors Show.

Jonathan is a little too much of a free-thinker to be welcome in the Apple Pundit community.

 

[azentropy]

I'm more in line with Luke's thoughts on the iPad. Just ditch the 9th Gen, lower the 10th/11th and then maybe just combine the Air and mini into one line with two sizes.

 

[brofkand]

I'm more in line with Luke's thoughts on the iPad. Just ditch the 9th Gen, lower the 10th/11th and then maybe just combine the Air and mini into one line with two sizes.

The 9th gen is today's eMac so it's going to stay I think. I could see it restricted to be only sold to Education soon though.

 

[teh_hunterer]

He is great for Mac content, probably the best even, but he’s always negative on the iPad because as a video editor, the iPad isn’t for him and he doesn’t understand the product.

Pretty strong words. He's negative about the new Mac-lite features being cludgy and stagnant, which is what's happened to me over time too.

Fully agree. Or Byte (Tom) or Christopher Lawley or Fernando from 9 to5Mac. In other words, actual iPad users

iPad sycophants more like. Their content is fine but they do not exactly have a balanced view of the iPad (nor would they claim to).

There are valid points of view on the iPad beyond just the people who will defend it no matter what.

 

[teh_hunterer]

. Sure, the iPad sucks as a laptop. But it’s NOT a laptop just as a MacBook (and all Surface Pros) sucks at being a tablet, because it’s not a tablet. In his eyes, Apple is deliberately crippling the iPad because they’re not making it a laptop when in fact Apple is just trying to make the best loved and best selling tablet in the market today. They’re not crippling it in any way. It’s just a different product, and that’s what he doesn’t understand.

I think this is the source of the disconnect people seem to have about the iPad.

Why should the Surface suck at being a tablet? When people say it sucks at being a tablet, people tend to agree, and I don't see much pushback of the idea that it become better as a tablet. Shouldn't there be a device that can do it all?

But when people level the same sort of criticism at the iPad not being a good laptop, there's this weird ideological divide where one side thinks the iPad sucks as a laptop, and the other side doesn't want anyone to touch its precious baby.

People are understandably getting pushy about there being something that can be both a laptop and a tablet with little to no sacrifices because it's 2023 and the hardware has arguably been there for a few years now. You could theoretically get there by making the MacBook more iPad-like instead of making the iPad more Mac-like, but because the iPad is the more rapidly changing device, people focus on that.

Will it always be wrong to want one device that can do it all?

 

[Richdmoore]

Sounds like you’re looking for a gaming machine larger than a phone but smaller than usual computers. I would bet waiting for an M3 iPad (Air or Pro) would work best for you since the new graphics cores on the A17 Pro would certainly be in those M3 iPads, which would support console quality games.

I hope things work out. I feel like the hardware is there, but very few game developers have shown up to the party, at least so far. (But I have been waiting years for Apple to get serious about AAA games, and have been let down every time they start to push gaming again.)

 

[teh_hunterer]

I hope things work out. I feel like the hardware is there, but very few game developers have shown up to the party, at least so far. (But I have been waiting years for Apple to get serious about AAA games, and have been let down every time they start to push gaming again.)

Same. The hardware is definitely there - the M1 is more powerful than the Steam Deck, even accounting for the thermal constraints of the iPad. I've been playing Honkai Star Rail on my 11" iPad Pro M1, and while it's not my usual type of game (I am being very patient with the anime-ness), it shows the iPad is so much more capable than what people give it credit for. I wish I could see just how nice Tears of the Kingdom or Breath of the Wild would look if running unconstrained on here.

It's frustrating seeing how powerful these tablets are, but all you can play on them that shows what they're capable of you can count on one hand.

While it'll be interesting seeing these AAA games Apple demonstrated running on the iPhone 15 Pro, I think it's going to be even more interesting seeing them run on the iPad.

 

[teh_hunterer]

I have an M1 “supercomputer” 11” tablet now, it’s great hardware. It should be able to take on any task the MacBook Air can.

The problem is that that the software (games in particular) are mostly freemium garbage apps. iPadOS has Xbox/ps controller support, M1 chip but very few fps or other games of the type I can play on my Xbox.

I believe the iPad is one proper FPS away from it clicking with most people what gaming should be like on it. When you talk about the potential of gaming on the iPad, most people's mindset is still stuck in the bad old days of mobile game garbage and "fps games don't work well with touch screens" despite controller and mouse and keyboard support being in iPadOS for years now.

If they put a Halo game on here everyone would get it straight away.

 

[tobybrut]

I think this is the source of the disconnect people seem to have about the iPad.

Why should the Surface suck at being a tablet? When people say it sucks at being a tablet, people tend to agree, and I don't see much pushback of the idea that it become better as a tablet. Shouldn't there be a device that can do it all?

But when people level the same sort of criticism at the iPad not being a good laptop, there's this weird ideological divide where one side thinks the iPad sucks as a laptop, and the other side doesn't want anyone to touch its precious baby.

People are understandably getting pushy about there being something that can be both a laptop and a tablet with little to no sacrifices because it's 2023 and the hardware has arguably been there for a few years now. You could theoretically get there by making the MacBook more iPad-like instead of making the iPad more Mac-like, but because the iPad is the more rapidly changing device, people focus on that.

Will it always be wrong to want one device that can do it all?

Right now, no such device exists that can double as a laptop or a tablet and be good at both. When I snark at the Surface Pro, it’s because I’ve had one and it was the worst device I’d ever had. Because of its small form factor and smaller battery, Microsoft had to cripple it as a laptop, even though it was running genuine Windows desktop software. It was slower and more expensive than any laptop in the same class. Then you had to use Windows in its tablet mode, which was the worst experience I’d ever had in a tablet. Touch targets were too small. Nothing worked right, and none of the apps were optimized for tablet form. Of course, neither was the OS. To use it without the desire to toss it out a window, you had to use a mouse, defeating the whole reason to own a tablet.

It’s not wrong to wish for a device that can do it all, but until someone can do it without compromising one side or the other in both performance and usability, it simply isn’t practical. Apple said it tested macOS on an iPad, an easy thing for them to do since macOS and iPadOS are essentially the same OS underneath. They said the experience was awful. Essentially the conclusion they came to was that they could not make an OS that was good at both. All they had to do was to look at Microsoft, who still can’t do it after over 10 years of trying. Microsoft has been trying and failing since Windows Vista. Apple may borrow features from macOS, but they always implement them in the iPad way, which is to say touch-first. People trash Apple for that because it doesn’t work the same way as on macOS, but since it isn’t a Mac, that should be a given. It shouldn’t act like a Mac.

Then you have the problem of the battery and thermals, both worse than any MacBook Air. iPadOS has tons of battery saving features, including sleeping all background apps and a server-based notifications system, an enormous undertaking Apple did just to save a bit of battery power. None of those exist in macOS, especially when it comes to those two issues, and Apple can’t change those things in macOS without breaking every app. If you want a tablet that doubles as a laptop, expect worse battery life, worse performance, and a horrid touch experience.

 

[KennyJr]

New format .. Don't like it .. Won't watch it.

 

[teh_hunterer]

Right now, no such device exists that can double as a laptop or a tablet and be good at both. When I snark at the Surface Pro, it’s because I’ve had one and it was the worst device I’d ever had. Because of its small form factor and smaller battery, Microsoft had to cripple it as a laptop, even though it was running genuine Windows desktop software. It was slower and more expensive than any laptop in the same class. Then you had to use Windows in its tablet mode, which was the worst experience I’d ever had in a tablet. Touch targets were too small. Nothing worked right, and none of the apps were optimized for tablet form. Of course, neither was the OS. To use it without the desire to toss it out a window, you had to use a mouse, defeating the whole reason to own a tablet.

Agree, I've observed the same thing.

It’s not wrong to wish for a device that can do it all, but until someone can do it without compromising one side or the other in both performance and usability, it simply isn’t practical. Apple said it tested macOS on an iPad, an easy thing for them to do since macOS and iPadOS are essentially the same OS underneath. They said the experience was awful. Essentially the conclusion they came to was that they could not make an OS that was good at both. All they had to do was to look at Microsoft, who still can’t do it after over 10 years of trying. Microsoft has been trying and failing since Windows Vista. Apple may borrow features from macOS, but they always implement them in the iPad way, which is to say touch-first. People trash Apple for that because it doesn’t work the same way as on macOS, but since it isn’t a Mac, that should be a given. It shouldn’t act like a Mac.

I don't necessarily think it needs to act exactly like a Mac, but it is hard to accept that when an M1/M2 iPad has the same SoC as the Mac that it can't be more capable sometimes. I don't find myself wanting a tablet that runs macOS wholesale, but I do find myself wishing my iPad could enter into a macOS-like mode in a similar way that you can enter into Dex on a Samsung tablet.

Not because I think Apple copying Dex is an easy solution, but because there are scenarios where I would prefer to just bring an 11" iPad + Magic Keyboard with me, but be able to do some more complicated things in a desktop interface when I've got a mouse/kb/monitor connected. Because when you do have a mouse/kb/monitor connected, a traditional desktop interface can be a lot nicer to use than Stage Manager is. And the iPad Pro has a full thunderbolt port!

There is no easy solution, but it sucks when you want to bring just an iPad, but ultimately have to take a Mac just because figuring out a way to bring Mac functionality to the iPad is hard. Is having to bring a 3.5lb MacBook alongside an iPad just because of the small 10% of stuff I can't do on the iPad a good experience? It's not.

Then you have the problem of the battery and thermals, both worse than any MacBook Air. iPadOS has tons of battery saving features, including sleeping all background apps and a server-based notifications system, an enormous undertaking Apple did just to save a bit of battery power. None of those exist in macOS, especially when it comes to those two issues, and Apple can’t change those things in macOS without breaking every app. If you want a tablet that doubles as a laptop, expect worse battery life, worse performance, and a horrid touch experience.

If you look at the landscape that exists today of thick, hot, loud Windows laptops with terrible battery life, I don't think it's so bad. If you game on a MacBooks or run something like Parallels then you're going to halve your battery life anyway - it's the nature of the beast of having a device that can do more. You can tank your iPad's battery if you really want using Stage Manager anyway if you run certain apps side by side.

Being able to switch back and forth between an iPad mode where all the iPadOS performance and battery optimisations are still in place, and everything is touch first, and a desktop mode where you have more freedom to do what you like, would be great.

I get that it's not easy to do - if it were easy to do then someone would have done it already. You have Microsoft who has a laptop that sucks at being a tablet. You have Apple who has a tablet that sucks at being a laptop. Apple is in the best position to do it though, given everything runs on the same chips and they have both a great tablet OS and a great desktop OS, both with great software support, whereas Microsoft only has a good desktop OS with great software support.

The fact that Apple has great tablets and great laptops that seem to get ever so closer together means that this argument is going to play out forever until Apple, or someone else, finally makes it happen. It's never going to go away because so many people actually have both devices and use them both on a daily basis, and it's hard to ignore how good it would be when it's staring you in the face every day.

 

[tobybrut]

Not because I think Apple copying Dex is an easy solution, but because there are scenarios where I would prefer to just bring an 11" iPad + Magic Keyboard with me, but be able to do some more complicated things in a desktop interface when I've got a mouse/kb/monitor connected. Because when you do have a mouse/kb/monitor connected, a traditional desktop interface can be a lot nicer to use than Stage Manager is. And the iPad Pro has a full thunderbolt port!

I have two Samsung tablets (S8 Ultra nd S9 Ultra) and a phone (Z Fold 4) with DeX and it sucks, especially when trying to use my fingers for navigation. Windows appearing all over the place isn't good if you don't have a mouse. Things get overlapped and inaccessible unless I have a mouse. I'm fully convinced Samsung created DeX to make phone apps look better because then they'd be all stretched out and awful looking since tablet-optimized apps on Android are few and far between. I find nothing useful about DeX, and I love my Galaxy tablets for being good tablets, not for being bad laptops. There's a reason Apple doesn't have that mode. It absolutely requires a mouse and Apple is touch-first, which makes it still the best tablet. Even Apple requires touch-first on Stage Manager unless it's on an external monitor (obviously since there's no touch screen on a monitor).

There is no easy solution, but it sucks when you want to bring just an iPad, but ultimately have to take a Mac just because figuring out a way to bring Mac functionality to the iPad is hard. Is having to bring a 3.5lb MacBook alongside an iPad just because of the small 10% of stuff I can't do on the iPad a good experience? It's not.

If you look at the landscape that exists today of thick, hot, loud Windows laptops with terrible battery life, I don't think it's so bad. If you game on a MacBooks or run something like Parallels then you're going to halve your battery life anyway - it's the nature of the beast of having a device that can do more. You can tank your iPad's battery if you really want using Stage Manager anyway if you run certain apps side by side.

I bring both my iPad and MacBook Pro 14" when I travel, but that's because I play World of Warcraft on the laptop and can't on the iPad. I'm fine with that. I wouldn't want it to run on the iPad because my iPad would burn up if Blizzard were foolish enough to make an iPad version. WoW can actually test the fans on a MacBook (it gets really loud and hot, just like a Windows PC), and I would hesitate trying to run the game on a MacBook Air, fearing my frame rates would drop to unplayable when it throttles. Some things are better left to a Mac while other things are best left to an iPad, and that's just fine. That's exactly why Apple sells four lines of computing devices in ascending order of power: iPhones, iPads, Mac laptops, and Mac desktops. The SoC isn't everything. It's thermals, form factor, and user interface that goes along with the SoC.

he fact that Apple has great tablets and great laptops that seem to get ever so closer together means that this argument is going to play out forever until Apple, or someone else, finally makes it happen. It's never going to go away because so many people actually have both devices and use them both on a daily basis, and it's hard to ignore how good it would be when it's staring you in the face every day.

Some day, there may be revolutionary changes in battery technology along with chips so power efficient and fast that this may end up being a reality. Of course, the problem with the latter is that software has this tendency to eat up any performance gains hardware makes, so that problem may never go away. For now, it's not happening. Apple does tell us they're forever experimenting in their labs, but the fact that they don't do it tells you something. They are all about the user experience, and getting that 100% overlap won't happen anytime soon. Maybe not in my lifetime (I'm older than most on this site).

One question I have is that since laptops and desktops are not fully interchangeable with desktops trading portability for power, why do people think iPads and MacBooks should be 100% identical? Unless you're Marques Brownlee lugging an iMac Pro around an airport, most people don't bring their desktops when they travel. People are always trading off portability for power. It's ok for desktops and laptops to be segmented computers with people often owning both, yet Apple is bad (maybe not to you, but to people like Luke Miani or Tailosive Tech who are both openly hostile to iPads) because it's not ok for laptops and iPads to be different devices with different capabilities. They must be 100% alike or else the iPad sucks. Some things will always be easier on one device than others whether it's due to form factor or user interface or app availability. You'll never get 100% overlap.

 

[marcinsf]

Luke is cute but best his place is a mess with all that hardware laying around.

 

[redheeler]

A crossover episode! Apparently not the first one but it’s the first time I’m hearing of such a thing.

 

[redheeler]

Luke is cute but best his place is a mess with all that hardware laying around.

Luke’s passion runs deep but is nothing compared to the @dosdude1 who he had as a guest for a couple videos. The DosDude is the brilliant mad scientist with projects strewn about in various states of disassembly vibe.

 

[teh_hunterer]

I have two Samsung tablets (S8 Ultra nd S9 Ultra) and a phone (Z Fold 4) with DeX and it sucks, especially when trying to use my fingers for navigation. Windows appearing all over the place isn't good if you don't have a mouse. Things get overlapped and inaccessible unless I have a mouse. I'm fully convinced Samsung created DeX to make phone apps look better because then they'd be all stretched out and awful looking since tablet-optimized apps on Android are few and far between. I find nothing useful about DeX, and I love my Galaxy tablets for being good tablets, not for being bad laptops. There's a reason Apple doesn't have that mode. It absolutely requires a mouse and Apple is touch-first, which makes it still the best tablet. Even Apple requires touch-first on Stage Manager unless it's on an external monitor (obviously since there's no touch screen on a monitor).

I almost included something more about Samsung in my last post, but it was getting a bit long. I was going to say that Samsung's Dex seems like a cool but not very useful proof of concept. They have the willingness to try stuff out like this, and it's nice to see a tablet transform into a desktop experience, but as you say there is very little software support, and while it looks like a desktop UI when you don't look too closely, it doesn't come close to what Apple or Microsoft could do if they chose to go down this path.

But I don't see any issue with it being pretty much dependent on mouse and keyboard, as that's what it's for isn't it? You have the touch first tablet interface when you want that, and the mouse and keyboard first interface when you want that.

I bring both my iPad and MacBook Pro 14" when I travel, but that's because I play World of Warcraft on the laptop and can't on the iPad. I'm fine with that. I wouldn't want it to run on the iPad because my iPad would burn up if Blizzard were foolish enough to make an iPad version. WoW can actually test the fans on a MacBook (it gets really loud and hot, just like a Windows PC), and I would hesitate trying to run the game on a MacBook Air, fearing my frame rates would drop to unplayable when it throttles. Some things are better left to a Mac while other things are best left to an iPad, and that's just fine. That's exactly why Apple sells four lines of computing devices in ascending order of power: iPhones, iPads, Mac laptops, and Mac desktops. The SoC isn't everything. It's thermals, form factor, and user interface that goes along with the SoC.

This one I am not so sure of. I've heard that people are able to get a solid 60fps in WoW on an Air, and while the iPad certainly has less thermal capacity, it a) won't go beyond its thermal limits, and b) the performance when fully throttled is still decent for what it is. I think WoW would be doable on the iPad, but concede that it's just a guess on my part.

When you can outperform a Steam Deck with the thin and light passively cooled M1 iPad, it is something special and far more could be done on it than is being done on it.

Some day, there may be revolutionary changes in battery technology along with chips so power efficient and fast that this may end up being a reality. Of course, the problem with the latter is that software has this tendency to eat up any performance gains hardware makes, so that problem may never go away. For now, it's not happening. Apple does tell us they're forever experimenting in their labs, but the fact that they don't do it tells you something. They are all about the user experience, and getting that 100% overlap won't happen anytime soon. Maybe not in my lifetime (I'm older than most on this site).

We do seem to be approaching a sweet spot with passively cooled devices very recently with Apple Silicon. The iPhone 15 Pro apparently doesn't seem to dim the screen even when playing very demanding games, which certainly isn't something you could say for previous iPhones. If the M3 powered iPads of the future (or even A17 Pro iPads) are able to do this as well, I'd say that's a remarkable achievement, given Apple previously had to utilise screen dimming to kind of bridge the gap. Of course, the iPhone 16 Pro and iPad Pro M3 could go right back to the way things used to be before so this is just speculation.

But if this is the new floor going forward, I think it's a significant landmark. And one that conveniently comes just as Apple is actively pushing AAA gaming on iOS and iPadOS.

One question I have is that since laptops and desktops are not fully interchangeable with desktops trading portability for power, why do people think iPads and MacBooks should be 100% identical? Unless you're Marques Brownlee lugging an iMac Pro around an airport, most people don't bring their desktops when they travel. People are always trading off portability for power. It's ok for desktops and laptops to be segmented computers with people often owning both, yet Apple is bad (maybe not to you, but to people like Luke Miani or Tailosive Tech who are both openly hostile to iPads) because it's not ok for laptops and iPads to be different devices with different capabilities. They must be 100% alike or else the iPad sucks. Some things will always be easier on one device than others whether it's due to form factor or user interface or app availability. You'll never get 100% overlap.

With desktops and laptops, particularly with Apple silicon, I think we've hit the point where you can say for the vast, vast majority of people they aren't that different. I'm pretty sure not even MKBHD takes a desktop with him anymore. There is still some difference in power technically, but after the last few years, not one that you could use to make an analogy between iPads and laptops.

Thank you for being one of the very few people online who is willing to delve into these discussions without falling into dogmatic tribal arguments. Something I noticed with you a year or so back in a contentious thread that was talking about the A12Z dev kit in which you came in and added a bunch of useful info.

 

[tobybrut]

This one I am not so sure of. I've heard that people are able to get a solid 60fps in WoW on an Air, and while the iPad certainly has less thermal capacity, it a) won't go beyond its thermal limits, and b) the performance when fully throttled is still decent for what it is. I think WoW would be doable on the iPad, but concede that it's just a guess on my part.

I’ve seen a ton of reviews where YouTubers run World of Warcraft as a test of native games, but none of them except the Everyday Dad are actually WoW players. The Everyday Dad plays WoW Classic on a MacBook Air, which I don’t, so I don’t know how taxing that game is compared to the standard Retail version, which is what I play exclusively. Every reviewer I’ve seen uses unpaid accounts where your characters are severely limited in what they can do. Almost all of them run around in the outside world with nothing happening around them. When nothing is happening and nothing is around, you can get decent frame rates. If you’re a serious player who raids in 10-20 person raids and runs Mythic+ dungeons all the time, that’s when you seriously tax your processor. I would not want to raid on a MacBook Air where latency and frame rates can wipe your entire raid group as a result of a throttling processor. The worst frame rates are in the main central hub of each particular expansion where there may be dozens or hundreds of other players around and the game has to render every one of them. Even an M1 Pro MacBook Pro can have trouble reaching 60 fps with high quality graphics just sitting in the central hub of Valdrakken and doing nothing at all. The fans on my MBP get very, very loud, while staying silent for almost everything else I do.

But if this is the new floor going forward, I think it's a significant landmark. And one that conveniently comes just as Apple is actively pushing AAA gaming on iOS and iPadOS.

Here’s hoping.

Thank you for being one of the very few people online who is willing to delve into these discussions without falling into dogmatic tribal arguments. Something I noticed with you a year or so back in a contentious thread that was talking about the A12Z dev kit in which you came in and added a bunch of useful info.

Thank you. I appreciate that. I do enjoy a good conversation, and I’ve enjoyed ours.

 

[teh_hunterer]

I’ve seen a ton of reviews where YouTubers run World of Warcraft as a test of native games, but none of them except the Everyday Dad are actually WoW players. The Everyday Dad plays WoW Classic on a MacBook Air, which I don’t, so I don’t know how taxing that game is compared to the standard Retail version, which is what I play exclusively. Every reviewer I’ve seen uses unpaid accounts where your characters are severely limited in what they can do. Almost all of them run around in the outside world with nothing happening around them. When nothing is happening and nothing is around, you can get decent frame rates. If you’re a serious player who raids in 10-20 person raids and runs Mythic+ dungeons all the time, that’s when you seriously tax your processor. I would not want to raid on a MacBook Air where latency and frame rates can wipe your entire raid group as a result of a throttling processor. The worst frame rates are in the main central hub of each particular expansion where there may be dozens or hundreds of other players around and the game has to render every one of them. Even an M1 Pro MacBook Pro can have trouble reaching 60 fps with high quality graphics just sitting in the central hub of Valdrakken and doing nothing at all. The fans on my MBP get very, very loud, while staying silent for almost everything else I do.

Perhaps it's the difference between classic and retail, because when I played a bit of classic WotLK (on a 1440p external screen at 144fps solid) on my base model 14" Pro I basically didn't hear the fans.

In vanilla classic I went really hard, was one of the top 200 in my class/roll in the world (as far as logs go anyway, which is a whole other discussion, but you get the level of dedication), so I definitely appreciate the need for performance during raids. Although I only really played classic and about half of classic TBC, and that was on my gaming PC. I only played some WotLK to test out the Mac.

 

[sledgehammer89]

The tablet form factor and iPadOS are not a limiting computing environment for them

First one is true, but iPadOS is too restricted. Just want to have a Terminal App with Homebrew and long running tasks, a Browser with Developer Tools enabled, different Browser engines possible and a Mail client from Apple, where the headers won't be hidden from the app. And all of them is possible easily...

 

[Isengardtom]

Pretty strong words. He's negative about the new Mac-lite features being cludgy and stagnant, which is what's happened to me over time too.



iPad sycophants more like. Their content is fine but they do not exactly have a balanced view of the iPad (nor would they claim to).

There are valid points of view on the iPad beyond just the people who will defend it no matter what.

a bit late to reply to this but still

By this definition you can call Luke a Mac sycophant too