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How do you understand my statement? $100 of $500 is equal to 20%.

Yes, all of that is obvious. But it's not "proof", it's a conclusion you have reached based on a retailer's price. Proof would be showing what it actually costs Apple to build a Mini. I would agree if you had said something like "This suggests that Apple has a more than 20% margin".

Unfortunately, there seems to be a lot of confusion over what is a fact and what is an opinion in our world today.
 
Yes, all of that is obvious. But it's not "proof", it's a conclusion you have reached based on a retailer's price. Proof would be showing what it actually costs Apple to build a Mini. I would agree if you had said something like "This suggests that Apple has a more than 20% margin".

Unfortunately, there seems to be a lot of confusion over what is a fact and what is an opinion in our world today.

Everything on this forum is conjecture, and always will be don't act like this is some kind of a revelation

Considering we can look up retail and wholesale pricing on the pc components used and comparable motherboards like a nuc
We can infer what the pricing is close to.
if anything Apple would have a lower price that's a major manufacturer with wholesale pricing to match

There's also the common sense you don't become the richest company in the world without pulling a profit on your devices means I think it's a safe bet
 
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Well after six years of waiting for a decent Mac Mini desktop my wait is over. I have decided to build a PC. Just ordered my first parts and will put up my 2014 Mac Mini for sale on eBay tomorrow. Still have 2 iPads, 2 iPhones, 2 MacBook Airs, and 2 AppleTV's. We shall see how it goes.

The Apple TV's may be the next items on the chopping block.

Fare-thee-well Apple.
I predict you will be happily surprised. My success with Win10 can be traced to Stardock's menu app. It changes the horrible Win10 menu to a Win7 menu. Have fun with your new hardware. Nice to have... CHOICES :)
 
Considering we can look up retail and wholesale pricing on the pc components used and comparable motherboards like a nuc
We can infer what the pricing is close to.
if anything Apple would have a lower price that's a major manufacturer with wholesale pricing to match

There's also the common sense you don't become the richest company in the world without pulling a profit on your devices means I think it's a safe bet
Amen. brother. :)
 
Judging from the depth of knowledge and experience on this board I would expect that most would have implemented or entertained a hybrid (Mac/PC) infrastructure ... well, because most here have tinkered or at least opened the box - these are the folks who endeavor for more (just need the pockets) - so ... the best you can be is prepared, fluid and OS-agnostic ... screw "it just works" and make it work .... make it work for you!
 
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For those of you (like me) who are considering jumping ship to the Linux world, this is a quote from a recent review of System76's new Linux distro, Pop!_OS, by Phillip Prado at "It's FOSS" (https://itsfoss.com/pop-os-linux-review/):

But what makes Pop!_OS different, better, special is what it can and will be. Forgive the comparison, but System 76 is in a position to take on the role of the “Apple of the Linux world.” Not only are they making the hardware, but now they have committed to making software designed for the machines they will be on. They are in a place where they can design these two separate pieces of personal computing in tandem.​

Time to open up a VM and put Pop!_OS on for a spin. I've been looking hard at System76's Meercat offering for a while now, and a nice Linux distro for it might just make the nut.
 
I'd keep the thing in a back room or closet instead. If you sell, sure as shooting, some little App you have on it will not have a PC workaround. You're not talking a ton of bucks here anyway.

For me it's the other way around. I have apps offered to me through my employer that are PC only. Go figure.
[doublepost=1526673556][/doublepost]
What OS are you moving to?

Windows 10
 
A farewell, of sorts. I occasionally have a look at this forum to see if there's anything worth paying attention to, but I haven't posted anything for a long time because I've had nothing to contribute, which apparently isn't necessary. I will stop by now and then out of sympathy.

I am about to leave the Apple "ecosystem". My personal computing days began with a Vic 20 (Google it, kids) but continued with IBM compatibles (which became PCs) because my employers used them. My introduction to the Mac world came with automated DNA sequencers that needed Apple software. I was glad to leave the evil Gates empire. Apple is now the evil empire (and Gates is now a good guy).

I have an aging early 2010 MacBook Pro and a 2014 Mini. The Mini is still doing fine for what I need, but the MacBook is struggling. I only use it for when I travel, which is no longer often, and in my office on the patio on nice days, which have a short season up here in Maple Leaf country. I now edit scientific manuscripts for a living, all of which are written using Microsoft Word for Windows. I used Windows in virtual machines for years because I never trusted the Mac versions of Word to faithfully convert all the fiddly formatting edits I had to make but finally switched to the Mac version a couple of years ago (no complaints yet, so I guess the latest Mac versions are OK). My MacBook still uses Windows 7 in a virtual machine, but jeez, I'm getting tired of all the BS I have to endure with this struggling computer.

I would gladly buy a new MacBook Pro if one met my needs (and budget). I don't need a fancy screen to edit text, and I don't need a Touch Bar, and I wouldn't want to even try editing my manuscripts with anything smaller than 15". I need a new laptop, and Apple offers nothing for me, so I have decided to toss Apple into the compost bin and move to an ecosystem that meets my needs (and budget).

I have also decided to use only one computer. I will use a new laptop for working on the patio and in clamshell mode as my desktop. I haven't decided yet which laptop to get, but it will be one of the new higher end aluminum ones (I don't watch TV anymore, so my computer is also now my entertainment centre - mostly geeky Sci-Fi stuff). As I said, the Mini is still functional (but gets a bit warm when surfing the web while backing up the day's work to multiple redundant SSDs), but why have two desktops?

I do hope a new Mini comes along that makes everyone here happy, but it's been eight years since that has happened. I'll still drop by every now and again for the occasional laugh or shake of the head. Apple is no longer a computer company, so good luck to those who still think it is or wish it were.
 
I do hope a new Mini comes along that makes everyone here happy, but it's been eight years since that has happened.

Well there's clearly nothing that would "make everyone here happy". :D But the 2012 quad core mini's continue to be highly regarded - still very happy with mine. It was first introduced five and half years ago - October 2012. The 2010 Mini was introduced 8 years ago (June 2010). Do you feel that was a better machine than the 2012?
 
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Yes, all of that is obvious. But it's not "proof", it's a conclusion you have reached based on a retailer's price. Proof would be showing what it actually costs Apple to build a Mini. I would agree if you had said something like "This suggests that Apple has a more than 20% margin".

Unfortunately, there seems to be a lot of confusion over what is a fact and what is an opinion in our world today.

In lieu of an average selling margin for Apple, my view is that the usual expectation of Windows PCs is a launch price followed by a gradual reduction over months with extra stepping down due to sales until the unit is replaced by the next model.

Apple don't reduce prices at all throughout the year that the average model is for sale and moreso they don't change the price points between models. I think they price each model with narrower margins than normal at the start and make more money towards the end as component prices drop.

The iMac Pro at the moment is actually cheaper than most equivalent builds of PCs (even though most PC makers wouldn't choose to buy the components as selected by Apple. Think for a moment if the iMac Pro didn't get a price drop for 3-4 years though. A Dell iMac Pro would have been replaced after 9-12 months with better specified product having slid in price week to week. with the occasional sale by Dell. OK, maybe the Xeons would be replaced less often but there's a good reason for Apple to drift Pro Macs towards Xeons if Intel can provide suitable ones because the release schedule isn't like clockwork on the

It's my experience that retailers usually get comparatively narrow margins but occasionally get to sell specific builds cheap for some reason as wholesalers sell special specs which must be clearly supplied by Apple. This is there Best Buy sales come from I think. It's unlikely these could be genuine loss leaders but they have to be sanctioned sales by for approved retailers as Apple generally in the past banned retailers from selling far below the RRP to protect the brand (by embargo or by offering narrow mark-ups).

Rather than bring along a new spec Mac Mini, Apple could just re-align the prices later this year because of currency changes since 2016 and 2017 - as discussed elsewhere in the UK and the Eurozone this re-alignment should mean a 10% price drop. It's half the 20% price increase imposed in October 2016 but if Apple released new kit to update the MBA and Mac Mini it could boost sales.
 
A farewell, of sorts. I occasionally have a look at this forum to see if there's anything worth paying attention to, but I haven't posted anything for a long time because I've had nothing to contribute, which apparently isn't necessary. I will stop by now and then out of sympathy.

I am about to leave the Apple "ecosystem". My personal computing days began with a Vic 20 (Google it, kids) but continued with IBM compatibles (which became PCs) because my employers used them. My introduction to the Mac world came with automated DNA sequencers that needed Apple software. I was glad to leave the evil Gates empire. Apple is now the evil empire (and Gates is now a good guy).

I have an aging early 2010 MacBook Pro and a 2014 Mini. The Mini is still doing fine for what I need, but the MacBook is struggling. I only use it for when I travel, which is no longer often, and in my office on the patio on nice days, which have a short season up here in Maple Leaf country. I now edit scientific manuscripts for a living, all of which are written using Microsoft Word for Windows. I used Windows in virtual machines for years because I never trusted the Mac versions of Word to faithfully convert all the fiddly formatting edits I had to make but finally switched to the Mac version a couple of years ago (no complaints yet, so I guess the latest Mac versions are OK). My MacBook still uses Windows 7 in a virtual machine, but jeez, I'm getting tired of all the BS I have to endure with this struggling computer.

I would gladly buy a new MacBook Pro if one met my needs (and budget). I don't need a fancy screen to edit text, and I don't need a Touch Bar, and I wouldn't want to even try editing my manuscripts with anything smaller than 15". I need a new laptop, and Apple offers nothing for me, so I have decided to toss Apple into the compost bin and move to an ecosystem that meets my needs (and budget).

I have also decided to use only one computer. I will use a new laptop for working on the patio and in clamshell mode as my desktop. I haven't decided yet which laptop to get, but it will be one of the new higher end aluminum ones (I don't watch TV anymore, so my computer is also now my entertainment centre - mostly geeky Sci-Fi stuff). As I said, the Mini is still functional (but gets a bit warm when surfing the web while backing up the day's work to multiple redundant SSDs), but why have two desktops?

I do hope a new Mini comes along that makes everyone here happy, but it's been eight years since that has happened. I'll still drop by every now and again for the occasional laugh or shake of the head. Apple is no longer a computer company, so good luck to those who still think it is or wish it were.


There it is from someone who has evolved and shown versatility benefiting from what currently meets the needs. "This" is the cue for all of us - adapt, learn and resolve to a steady-state of fluidity but by all means - "get done what needs doing!"

Know this ... "we will work-around" - "we will not stand still" - and no... not Apple or any other will put us out the box that we can't work-around!
 
You can do your own research by using the following two sites ...
https://everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_mini/specs/mac-mini-core-i5-2.5-late-2012-specs.html
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Core-i5-3210M-Notebook-Processor.74458.0.html

I even helped you out with the base 2012 mini. The bottom of notebookcheck has links to many computers released with that CPU.
Okay,
That was easy with computer, where you can have 3 windows open side by side, wouldn't be easy with ipad, which I mostly use to follow this thread.
I have thought that apple has used old chips in minis, like something already used in last years macs, but no, they were all launched in the same year than mini. They just got older after minis were launched...

So, this might be a way for apple to reduce the costs with new mini models; release new mini every 3 years, but use one year old cpu's!
Fat profits are here again!
 
Okay,
That was easy with computer, where you can have 3 windows open side by side, wouldn't be easy with ipad, which I mostly use to follow this thread.
I have thought that apple has used old chips in minis, like something already used in last years macs, but no, they were all launched in the same year than mini. They just got older after minis were launched...

So, this might be a way for apple to reduce the costs with new mini models; release new mini every 3 years, but use one year old cpu's!
Fat profits are here again!

We don't actually know what kind of deal Apple strikes with Intel though. The price for the CPUs on the Intel website are for tray volumes of 1000 at a time - obviously Apple buy more than that so will get a bigger discount depending on their rep - possibly to the tune of 25-35% perhaps but I have no hard evidence for scale of discount.

There may be discounts for yield as Intel get better at making older CPUs (ie they get fewer faulty ones per 1000 made) but I don't think they would strictly speaking discount for the age of the CPU unless Apple strike a deal for prices over time. Remember the likes of Dell and HP sell 'older' CPUs in their value lines.

And at some point Intel will deprecate old CPUs, less quickly for their mobile ones by the looks of it but it will happen in due course with the Haswell mobile CPUs which will ultimately decide the fate of the Mini if nothing else happens first.

It's true that today people aren't buying devices annually and could keep our computers for several years at a time but we don't all buy at the same time. The phone market expect new devices at least annually which is why Apple have to get on that treadmill with the iPhone. They have occasionally missed update years with the iPad for various reasons without harming sales too much but they do keep older devices like the iPad Mini 4 but crucially they REDUCE THE PRICES or in the latest incarnation BUMP THE STORAGE on an annual basis.

The iPad Mini 4 came out in September 2015 with 16Gb and 64Gb options. A 128Gb option was later added, the storage was doubled to 32Gb and 128Gb and latterly you can only buy a 128Gb version. Obviously you can get discounts through third party retailers or the Apple refurb store - and add cellular SKUs too. All of these gave buyers later down the line an impetus to buy at refresh time but the base technology has stayed the same even if the prices have changed slightly (it'll have been hit with the 2016 BREXIT product price increase in the UK but I can't specifically recall what that meant apart from a 20% rounded increase).

They have done none of these things with the Mac Mini (apart from the 2016 price bump) but I would have considered a purchase in later years if the base model had its storage bumped to 8Gb as standard, and then the hard drive was bumped to 1Tb (with 1Tb and 2Tb Fusion drives as standard higher up the range for example). Apple wouldn't have had to keep the price static either if they couldn't swallow the price of the upgrade but they have this mantra of keeping the price the same throughout the life of the product - only changing for local currency variations. This works great for keeping the perceived value up and internally they accept a lower margin at the start of a product line and end up earning their profit by the end of the product lifespan after the parts manufacturers have reduced the price of their products over time. Usually for iMacs this is an annual cycle but it seems at Apple nobody wanted to track annual SKU tweaks of the Mini since 2014.

What car manufacturers do - something that Apple were aspiring to be - is add more optional extras as standard to later model years and increase the price by roughly the cost of that option due to inflation. It gives the buyers a tangible difference between this year's model and last year's model to boost the impulse to buy. If Apple were selling a car i'd be interested if they sold the same model for four years on the trot and kept the price exactly the same year on year except for currency variations - Luca Maestri might not be so pleased though ;).

It doesn't work the same for computers where the expectation is that prices drop for the same gear month to month until it's discontinued. Apple could have worked out a curve where base SKU specs got massaged to give buyers an annual predictable reason to buy. For most of us buyers that means a new Intel CPU and system - we might have accepted annual storage bumps but doing nothing for close to 4 years is the whole reason for this thread being in existence!

Looking further into the future, for the sake of example (figures guesstimated) the Intel CPU that goes into the Mini costs them $200, yet the A11 CPU that goes into the iPhone may cost them $20 - and the performance figures aren't too different when you compare benchmarks of the A11 with the 15w dual core Intel CPUs. This is where the juicy rumour of ARM CPUs coming in to Macs comes about. For the Mac Mini, an ARM CPU would enable Apple to use exclusively Flash NAND storage (like an iPad) and subsequently reduce the form factor because they no longer have to cater for a physical storage unit like a 2.5" hard drive and could design for less cooling due to lower overall TDP as well. I would also expect something like Gatekeeper to be used to make force ARM Macs to use an ARM Mac App Store - and the secret Marzipan plan appears to allow for a simple recompile for most app makers to get their app running on ARM.

If Apple were to decide to go that way with an ARM Mini they would decide on a reasonably high spec which would last 4 years - A12X for example would be out for iPad Pros by WWDC 2019 - with software locked down to the Mac App Store. Third party retailers would be allowed to run promotional deals from time to time while Apple would spec bump through occasional internal storage increases during this time.
 
Okay,
That was easy with computer, where you can have 3 windows open side by side, wouldn't be easy with ipad, which I mostly use to follow this thread.
I have thought that apple has used old chips in minis, like something already used in last years macs, but no, they were all launched in the same year than mini. They just got older after minis were launched...

So, this might be a way for apple to reduce the costs with new mini models; release new mini every 3 years, but use one year old cpu's!
Fat profits are here again!
With "new" CPUs, even a year old, require an upgrade to the Motherboard, from the mini released 3 years prior. Intel LOVES to force a motherboard repurchase, after 2 CPU generations.
[doublepost=1526735963][/doublepost]
Well there's clearly nothing that would "make everyone here happy". :D But the 2012 quad core mini's continue to be highly regarded - still very happy with mine. It was first introduced five and half years ago - October 2012. The 2010 Mini was introduced 8 years ago (June 2010). Do you feel that was a better machine than the 2012?
I think he got his years mixed up. Nearly universally, the answer would be 6 years, not 8. But the sentiment is still the same. 6 years of giving a significant percentage of your customer base, ish sandwiches to eat, is way too long in the computer field. A field with MANY options
[doublepost=1526736173][/doublepost]
If Apple were to decide to go that way with an ARM Mini they would decide on a reasonably high spec which would last 4 years - A12X for example would be out for iPad Pros by WWDC 2019 - with software locked down to the Mac App Store. Third party retailers would be allowed to run promotional deals from time to time while Apple would spec bump through occasional internal storage increases during this time.
Defeats the purpose of a computer, versus an iPad. They would then truly be a phone company only, that sells a non-portable device that only runs phone apps. That would be worst of both worlds.
 
Nearly universally, the answer would be 6 years, not 8. But the sentiment is still the same. 6 years of giving a significant percentage of your customer base, ish sandwiches to eat, is way too long in the computer field.

I agree, 6 years is way too long. But no need to stretch that by 33% just to make a point. ;)

I think there's virtually no chance we'll get a new mini that's the modern equivalent of the 2012 quad servers. Those days are long gone. :(
 
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I just specc'd a mini vs an imac , it's really pretty outrageous the dough they're asking for this thing

It was £2k for the tricked out mini vs £2.2 for an almost top end imac 21"... !!! 16 gigs ram , 1 tb ssd !!!

The imac has vastly superior videocard and a quad core cpu , looks a bargain in comparison , oh and a lovely screen to boot

just crazy
 
For those of you (like me) who are considering jumping ship to the Linux world, this is a quote from a recent review of System76's new Linux distro, Pop!_OS, by Phillip Prado at "It's FOSS" (https://itsfoss.com/pop-os-linux-review/):

But what makes Pop!_OS different, better, special is what it can and will be. Forgive the comparison, but System 76 is in a position to take on the role of the “Apple of the Linux world.” Not only are they making the hardware, but now they have committed to making software designed for the machines they will be on. They are in a place where they can design these two separate pieces of personal computing in tandem.​

Time to open up a VM and put Pop!_OS on for a spin. I've been looking hard at System76's Meercat offering for a while now, and a nice Linux distro for it might just make the nut.


I'm going this way myself, love POP OS, going to replace my 2012 mini with a system 76 meerkat.
 
I'm going this way myself, love POP OS, going to replace my 2012 mini with a system 76 meerkat.
I need actual pro software to work on something that isn't macOS or Windows :( and I don't mean anything super refined and requiring a maxed-out iMac Pro – Scrivener, Photoshop, Reason are top three reasons I'm stuck.

And the latest security update is the reason why my Hackintosh is stuck.
 
I just specc'd a mini vs an imac , it's really pretty outrageous the dough they're asking for this thing

It was £2k for the tricked out mini vs £2.2 for an almost top end imac 21"... !!! 16 gigs ram , 1 tb ssd !!!

The imac has vastly superior videocard and a quad core cpu , looks a bargain in comparison , oh and a lovely screen to boot

just crazy

Or you can compare it to the MacBook Air, with 8GB RAM and SSD. Makes the Mac Mini look like a horrible value.
 
I just specc'd a mini vs an imac , it's really pretty outrageous the dough they're asking for this thing

It was £2k for the tricked out mini vs £2.2 for an almost top end imac 21"... !!! 16 gigs ram , 1 tb ssd !!!

The imac has vastly superior videocard and a quad core cpu , looks a bargain in comparison , oh and a lovely screen to boot

just crazy

That's just one of the reasons why the price list doesn't make sense - the options list for the Mini makes it even poorer value next to more recently updated Macs. The MBA as mentioned in a separate post is also dated Broadwell hardware too - though not as dated.

The 2014 Mini's options list is somewhat dated though. I don't recall if the prices on there were ever altered but they might have been. Remember if not maxing it that the 1Tb Fusion Drive on the Mini still has 128Gb SSD rather than the 24Gb that the iMac comes with. In addition, the smaller size SSD in the more modern machines could be replaced by Optane in the future for even more performance if Apple chose to.

If you don't need 1Tb of SSD then starting with a lower end iMac 21.5" makes the comparison still worse. But if you think about it Apple just upsold you based on how poor the headless entry level option was... :p

And if you look at the value proposition on the 21.5" vs the 27" you'd step up to the bigger model as well, so who is wrong here?
[doublepost=1526780334][/doublepost]
Defeats the purpose of a computer, versus an iPad. They would then truly be a phone company only, that sells a non-portable device that only runs phone apps. That would be worst of both worlds.

I think any future ARM powered Mac would in the beginning have to at least start with Gatekeeper lockdown for 2 reasons:
1. Stop people from downloading Intel (non-fat) binaries and expecting them to run
2. Quality control - this is the Mac App store, not just the iOS App Store - you'd expect that Apple would find a way to get people like Microsoft and Adobe to get their programs on there.
3. Could be a way for Apple to allow games on in a Steam-style.

If Apple weren't using a low price as a loss leader and were charging an amount which let them continue to profit from the each device sold then no problem but certainly there's a point where the word 'Mac' may not appear in the name of an ARM device if there's any prospect of people complaining that 'Mac' software they downloaded doesn't work.
 
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