PickUrPoison
macrumors G3
You will never get that. There’s zero chance of a new Mac being compatible with a 2+ year old OS.
Time to reassess.
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The new Mac mini is almost certainly coming
- Thread starter GabrieleR
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Time to reassess.
I am told the 2014 model was popular with the implant it where the sun don't shine club.
mryingster
macrumors 6502
Wait. The user folder has to be on the same drive that you are booting from? That's insane! That's new in 10.14? I haven't upgraded yet, and that kind of ruins my plans as I've been doing that since 10.6...
Yes, so much onion skins with T2 & sandboxing & iCloud & APFS & etc. that if something goes wrong, permissions are fixed like this:
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203538
The days of "open source system under the hood" are long gone and the undocumeted switch (resetUserPermissions) in diskutil command works only with homedirs in the startup disk.
Apple's support explicitly said, that if my homedir is somewhere else than in startup drive, I'll get no support from them.
My biggest problem is Apple Mail migrated from mini2012macos10.12 -> mini2018macos10.14, which leads to thousands of mail attachments "downloading..." forever.
I'd delete everything related to Mail, but save 300k local e-mails in 36 main folders and looots of subfolders "on my mac" (seems to be ~1 GB as exported mbox's, but >8GB in folder in Lib/Mail...?!?), but aM has cyphered folder names in Lib/Mail, so this is a bit scary, 25 years of emails. I noticed that since there is some issues with Mail, TM hasn't backed up almost any mails after migration, which was in April!
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DesertSurfer
macrumors 6502a
Not until the new Mac mini arrives (don't worry, it's almost certainly coming).
Micky Do
macrumors 68020
Pundits (and pros) received the 2018 Mac Mini favourably, but what about average Joes and Jills wanting moderate performer with a decent amount of on board storage at a reasonable price to put on their desk?
Most retailers around these parts (Thailand) had the previous generation Mac mini on display, including some for several months after the debut of the 2018 generation. That did turn up at one outlet near where I'm at for now (Phuket), but briefly. I have not seen it on display anywhere of late.... Not even on a trip that took in Korat, Bangkok, and Hua Hin a couple of months ago.
While the 2018 Mac Mini has the specs and performance that are desirable to some, for practical purposes for many consumers it is over priced and underwhelming. The current base model costs 60% more than the previous generation, but comes with just a quarter of the on board memory. (128 GB v 500 GB). Speced with an equivalent 512 GB SSD kicks the price up to a 140% increase in price......
What future does the Mac Mini have?
At present, none for me.... the 2009 Mac Mini on my desk soldiers on. I had been anticipating replacing it with a 2018 model, and would have been prepared to cough up three weeks pay to do so, but at current pricing, it is not a goer.
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PickUrPoison
macrumors G3
You can’t compare the old model that has a 500GB HDD to a new model with a 512GB SSD to support claims of a large price increase; that’s comparing apples to oranges.
Yes, Apple eliminated lower-performance SKUs—those with 4GB RAM, HDDs and also Fusion configs. Those were the models that comprised the $499-699 price range.
The previous model in the 8GB RAM/128GB SSD config was $749; the 2018 model with that config is $799. Yeah, that’s a $50 increase (which barely covers inflation btw) but it’s a much improved, much better machine. That $50 buys a lot, albeit overkill for you.
Unfortunately, very few people want what you want—a 4GB/HDD mini. You also can’t get a 4GB, HDD, Fusion or non-retina MacBook Pro config anymore. They’re effectively obsolete and there’s little demand. You can’t expect Apple to keep those SKUs around when so few people want to buy them.
In a couple years you’ll be able to get a good deal on a used 2018 to replace your 2009 mini. That should hold you until at least 2030, maybe even 2035. I’m pretty sure that’s your best course of action, assuming you want to continue running MacOS (and you don’t want a MacBook or iMac).
Much of what you say is accurate, but you can’t compare specs from 2014 to 2018. Technology constantly progresses. I can buy a PC with 8GB of RAM and a M2 128GB SSD for roughly the same price as what a 4GB RAM + 500GB HDD model would have cost in 2014. In the tech world, you generally get better specs for the same price after a 4 year gap. Your logic rests on the premise that it’s still 2014.
I think where Apple went overboard was with the processor. I don’t think the mini needed a desktop chip. U series Intel chips would have been more than adequate. That could have kept costs down a little, and they’d use less energy and run cooler. For the most part, it’s price increase is due to price-gouging. That’s been Apple’s strategy since Cook took over.
But yeah, a guy using a 2009 computer isn’t Apple’s target market. Picking up a used 2012 model makes a heck of a lot more sense than waiting for Apple to release a badly gimped machine in the future.
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PickUrPoison
macrumors G3
No, I’m really not relying on 2014 to make my case. If Apple had released a mini every year that they skipped—2015, 2016, 2017—in each case, the 8GB/128GB would have been somewhere in the $749-799 range. The only difference is the performance improvements would have occurred in smaller increments. Where is the price gouging?
It’s really no different from, for example, the 2016/2017/2018/2019 13” Touch Bar MBP, always at $1,799. Or the 15” MBP staying at $2,399 for the last four years. Updated every year because demand is higher—and smaller year-to-year, incremental performance increases as a result—but the same price for four years. Comparing 2016 to 2019, yeah you get a pretty nice performance increase, but prices didn’t drop. Is this price gouging?
High prices in no way began with Cook. People have been complaining about Apple’s high prices for 35+ years. But high priced is much different from overpriced, isn’t it.
everythingapplerainbow
macrumors regular
I'd consider top2012-model, but it can't meet my gpu needs.
Apple has done pretty nice Job here with mini2018: axed fusion drives AND (quite secretely) forced users to keep their home-folders in internal drive (10.14->). And how I'm reacting to this: I'm angry, but will buy also next mini model with bigger internal ssd. Apple wins, no matter how is my "user experience"...
The 2014 Mini is still (surprisingly) available new here in the US. I got a 2014 2.8ghz/8gb/1tb fusion mini a few months ago from B&H Photo for $500 for example. This was one step down from the top spec 2014 model and it sold for over $1000 a year ago. I split the 128gb SSD from the HD which was easy, and I use it as an iTunes server. B&H Photo still stocks these, and the price has fluctuated between $500 to $529.
They also still have the base 2014 1.4ghz/4gb/500gb HD Mini in stock at B&H for $329 now, if you want a really cheap computer. We have discussed this model extensively, and it's really underpowered for general use. But it's fine for a small server and that's a good price for a new Mac with a warranty, if it meets your needs.
Now I'm not suggesting that anybody rush out and buy these (and they probably aren't, or they'd be gone by now), but at least here in the US, the 2014 Mini lives on. 🙂
You are using 2014 pricing on a 2018 machine. As I said, in the world of tech you can generally get higher specs for the same money as time goes by. For example, between 2011 and 2012, the Mac Mini doubled it's RAM (from 2GB to 4GB) with $0.00 price increase. Then again, between 2012 and 2014 you could get an entry-level model with double the ram (4GB to 8GB) for the exact same $599 price (an increase of $0.00).
What do we see here? Between 2011 and 2014, you could get a Mac Mini with QUADRUPLE the RAM (2GB vs. 8GB) for the same price ($599). Granted, the CPU was worse in the 2014 entry-level model compared to the 2012 model, but that's Apple for you. Specs (in this case, RAM) increased dramatically and price stayed the same. And that was only 3 years. The gap between the 2014 and the 2018 was 4 years.
PC manufacturers had absolutely no problem offering entry-level machines with 8GB RAM in 2018 for the same price as entry-level machines with 4GB RAM cost 4 years prior. This is just common sense.
High prices are not new. The strategy of gouging is, however. Cook has implemented this strategy throughout multiple product lines. As Apple sells fewer units, their revenue continues to increase. How does that work? It works by significantly increasing the price-per-unit.
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I personally don't see this as much about gouging as I do the changing of the market target for the entire Mac lineup. Previous Minis were obviously consumer targeted. The new Mini has a security chip, 10G enet option, a small super high speed permanently mounted storage, etc, etc. Those are the features of a corporate / professional level SFF desktop computer. Apple themselves even said they were going to take "more of a professional direction" with the new Mini. At roughly what price range do base corporate SFF desktop computers start? Around $800 or so...
With iOS now supporting usb-c, mice, external storage along with catalyst. About all they'll need to add is a dock with several usb-c connections and multiple monitor support, then the "low-end" / consumer level iOS devices will be able to do pretty much anything a "full" computer can do
With iOS now supporting usb-c, mice, external storage along with catalyst. About all they'll need to add is a dock with several usb-c connections and multiple monitor support, then the "low-end" / consumer level iOS devices will be able to do pretty much anything a "full" computer can do
T2 was released two years ago... could next iteration T3 (or T3X) have Apple GPU? That would give Apple something to talk about. Macbook Pro 13” with T3X would be nice. But it wouldn’t hurt Mini either.
Biggest gouging with mini happens with storage.
If we set the speed of internal storage aside,
( Is there a site or app on the planet that lists old macs' prices with BTO configs? )
:
mini2012 with 1TB orig. cost $800?
And with Fusion $1050 (1.125TB)?
mini2014 with 1TB orig. cost $700?
And with Fusion $1000 (1.125TB)?
mini2018 with 1TB orig. cost $1400->?
At the same time (4 years) price of storage went to half with competing brands and with just drives...
4x profits for Apple...
I don't think most people buying mini need fastest ssd on the planet, but that's the only one Apple is offering.
I would have been perfecty pleased with fusion drive or user replaceable drive.
And at the same time Apple made sure that running a mac from external drive is way harder than before...
PickUrPoison
macrumors G3
You complain about me using 2014 to make my point—what year should I use, that’s the last model before the refresh—and then you go back to 2011 to try to make yours. 🙄
Mac mini, 8/128: 2014, $749. 2015, 2017, 2017 no update. 2018, $799. But that $50 buys a lot compared to the 2014 model, most notably:
—a 3.6GHz 65W desktop-class 8th generation quad core CPU vs. a 1.4GHz 15W mobile 4th gen dual core;
—user-replaceable, socketed RAM that maxes out at 64 GB vs. a max of 16GB of soldered RAM in the 2014; and
—four Thunderbolt 3/USB-C ports vs. two Thunderbolt 2 in the previous model.
There are other upgrades like Bluetooth 5.0, USB 3.1 Gen 2 (10Gbps) and HDMI 2.0. Also, the mini now has Apple’s T2 chip. A 10Gbps Ethernet port is available for an additional $100.
Newer computers, newer specs. $749–>799 isn’t even a price increase if you take inflation into account. As you say, “in the world of tech you can generally get higher specs for the same money as time goes by”. Where is the “gouging”?
Exactly what price did you expect for the 2018 8/128 mini, when the day before the new release it was $749? $499? $599? $699? I get it, Macs are too expensive. Like I said, people have been complaining about that for 35+ years. Where have you been?
Or maybe you wanted a 16/512GB for $799, even though the day before that was $1,299 in the 2014 model. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Macs are too expensive. I get it. FYI, Apple’s not going to compete with commodity PCs on price in a race to the bottom, with little to no profits (or even losses) like others. If you want a $399 Windows laptop, buy one. If you want a Mac, they start at $799. (I know, too expensive.)
You talk about Cook gouging in multiple product lines, but you don’t support that. If you’re complaining about iPhone, in 2013 the 5s was $649/749/849 for 16/32/64GB. The XR is $749/799/899 for 64/128/256GB. Is that gouging?
Is the MBP from 2013 to 2019 gouging? iPad is $299/329, is that gouging? AirPods at $159? Apple TV at $149? Apple Watch Series 3 at $279? Series 4 at $399? iMac? HomePod? Or are you upset that Apple has introduced higher-spec’d tiers like iPhone X/XS, iPad Pro and iMac Pro?
Yes, Apple products are expensive. But that doesn’t mean they’re overpriced, does it?
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dogslobber
macrumors 601
Neutering SSD speeds to spite your customers is pretty low. Fusion drives are junk. A spinner with a little SSD is another joke Apple plays on us. But we’re not laughing.
frou
macrumors 68000
If the numbers were on the table in front of us, regarding what it costs Apple for various capacity SSD flash chips vs. what they charge for the upgrade from X to Y, then there'd be no debate of whether they love gouging.
What do you think??!!
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hagjohn
macrumors 68010
Apple has billions of dollars in profits in the bank... so yes, I would say their products are overpriced. That doesn't mean I do not like Apple products or buy them but I sure would like to buy an Apple product at a fair price.
PickUrPoison
macrumors G3
High profit dollars results from selling a LOT of product at prices people are willing to pay, while keeping costs under control. As long as they’re selling in quantities that meet Apple’s expectations, they aren’t overpriced.
Overpriced is that house at $1.25 million that’s been sitting there on the market for six months, unsold. Expensive are the $1.1 million houses in that neighborhood that are correctly priced and sell in 2-4 weeks.
People buy expensive things all the time. Overpriced, not so much. And definitely not hundreds of millions of units, for hundreds of billions in revenue. Overpriced products don’t sell well, and kill volume, revenue and profit.
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PickUrPoison
macrumors G3
You can call it gouging if you want, but profit margin has been stable for many years. Prices are high to cover high expenses, like 135,000+ employees and $1.4 Billion per month in R&D. If people didn’t value Apple’s products at the asking price, they wouldn’t sell.
If hundreds of millions of people told you they consider Apple’s prices fair, would you believe them? Well, they’re telling you exactly that when they spend hundreds of billions of dollars on hundreds of millions of product.
That fact can be upsetting to some, especially if they can’t afford the products they want, but that’s reality. Whining and complaining doesn’t alter the facts.
frou
macrumors 68000
Don't need to do that, since I myself consider them "fair" because the overall value proposition of macOS is unmatched by Windows/Linux client computing for me.
Being overall positive on Apple and their products is not mutually exclusive to noting specific cases of gouging.
How did they make it harder? I saw a few YouTube tutorials for booting from a USB3 drive that made it look very easy.